Trial Twinking, R.I.P.

[CripzBlood]

Finally someone who understands what I've been saying about needing new vocabulary because the old paying/not-paying dyad does not apply any more.

You don't limit tournaments, for example, by whether or not someone pays money. You limit them by what gear they're allowed to use. Come up with a new way of referring to different gearsets that DOES NOT involve talking about money spent, and THEN you will be making actual progress towards the future of twinking in this bracket.

ok here is the new vocabulary:

F2P - Free To Play
P2V - Pay To Veteran
P2P - Pay To Play

 

[Allarien]

There is a term for games you buy once without a sub: buy to play.

And that's exactly what 6.1 will turn WoW into, a very poor version of a b2p game.

So in the end we have hardcore f2p's, moderate b2p's (with more heirloom access) and p2p's (full access to everything, which includes the ability to switch enchants at any time, depending on the fotm).
This change doesn't unify anything, it only further divides.

 

[CripzBlood]

This bracket deserves no respect as long as it's filled each xpac with those sad FOTM rerollers. We had 24's and p2p 20's in MoP, now at start of WoD we had 29's also. The arcane dream is true my friends! We now have some kind of F2P/P2P genetic experiment called Veteran Accounts with same advantages as normal P2P's over F2P's. It's enough.

I'm glad i'm enjoying endgame atm. F2P is RIP since WoD for me.

only thing to RIP is Hathor 20-29s.

have fun in end game brother, amen.

 

[Kincaide]

The problem here is not the terminology being used, but your argument. Other people are correct in pointing out that a veteran account is not 'free to play.' In fact, there's already a term for games like this, it's 'buy to play.' This term has been around for a long time and traditionally speaking, games have mostly been B2P. As in, you buy the game and you play it without having to pay additional money in order to keep playing.

Within the last decade, games have made a major shift from this B2P model to what we find today among the F2P, P2P, and P2W models. Some games are still B2P, while many feature two or more modes. For example, SWTOR has all the different pay models: F2P (up to level 50), P2P (sub fee for access to content past level 50), B2P (extra content and features for those who buy the content), and P2W (a cash shop that offers both cosmetic and power items for the game).

Wow is not much different. We have F2P, P2P, and B2P. Veteran accounts are just a new forum of B2P, intended for players who have taken a break from the game but still want to have access to friends and guildies.

So as you can see, the problem isn't the terms, but your understanding of them. I have no problem having a discussion with people and understanding those terms when used. You should probably stop arguing that veterans are F2P.

Decent argument but a flawed conclusion. My argument, if you read it, was never that Veterans are F2P. My argument was that veterans are NOT P2P, and that a two-mode F2P vs P2P labeling system was inefficient and outdated. I have said this enough times that you can't have just missed it unintentionally.

There are three game modes. Subscription currently on, Subscription previously on, and Subscription never on. Call them Mode A, Mode B, and Mode C for all I care, just STOP trying to shoe-horn three modes into two labels. THAT is the core of the problem, whether you're trying to lump B with A, or lump B with C, no matter, both arguments are flawed and miss the point entirely.

 

[CripzBlood]

I don't play any of those games, so just tell me: are you required to pay a monthly fee to continue to have access to your permanent characters? If so, then it's a pay to play game. You have pay to play your characters. If not, then it's a free to play game. You do not have to pay to play your characters. Please let me know which part of that is not crystal clear.

then LoL and CoD have completetly no diference to you. its all f2p.

 

[Kincaide]

then LoL and CoD have completetly no diference to you. its all f2p.

I wouldn't know, I don't play them, and I can't form opinions about something I haven't experienced. Therefore you can't put words in my mouth about this subject either.

 

[Conq]

19s is calling you all, make our bracket great again! The community leaders in 19s share a very similar game play mindset, the F2P community will fit in well. Our games are balanced for the most part besides alliance needing healers, and our Warsong pops are the gold standard for competition in a PuG.


I'd love to see some F2P teams in the Twink Cup and on the Guild Directory.

 

[Zatox]

1. Because access to BoAs requires you to log onto each toon who has BoAs. Which means unless you convinced a GM to give you helm/cloak/pants BoAs on a starter account, you have to have a paid account to get them. This means F2Ps will either sub their linked accounts or upgrade their starter accounts long enough to get the BoAs they want and then let it lapse into a starter account.

2. Stat scaling will be much better for a Veteran account level 20 than a F2P account because of enchants that F2Ps will never have access to.

Now, for sure, there will be stubborn people who refuse to buy the game or sub a linked account, but regardless of these people, F2Ps are done.

There is always going to be F2Ps in an F2Ps bracket. Your just going to see all of the familiar F2P names be Veteran.

 

[Tyramissoux]

As soon as you paid to get certain advantages, it's a form of p2p. But as we all know, there are some players who are p2p with with f2p restrictions so they are considered f2p... revirginized!

 

[Bop]

The argument, while innately unhealthy, is being turned into a war over semantics. That is sickening, frankly. Both sides have used improper terms to portray the other side's arguments as something that they are not. That's called burning straw men.

The argument at hand should revolve around the morality of the decision to take an account to Veteran status. Which, and this is the third time I've said this, is a very unhealthy, unproductive, and inefficient argument.

 

[madhombre]

again, if you BUY something , its not free. veterans wont be p2ps because they dont have to pay monthly, they wont be f2p either because they HAVE TO buy the game.
get used to the feeling that all of you future veterans are no f2p anymore, means no more crying about evil p2ps.

 

[Kincaide]

The argument at hand should revolve around the morality of the decision to take an account to Veteran status. Which, and this is the third time I've said this, is a very unhealthy, unproductive, and inefficient argument.

How did morality come into this? If a person upgrades an F2P account to Veteran, are they more immoral than a person who subscribed 5 years ago and had old 19s and comes back now that it's possible? How is it immoral to choose to maximize your characters in a way that anyone can legally do, as opposed to the persistent immorality we have endured of people plying and advantage that we could not do without committing to a subscription and losing access to the characters if the subscription lapsed?

For that is what makes this different from that. Staying at maximum ability for a one-time commitment of five dollars is incomparable, completely incomparable to staying at maximum ability for a lifetime commitment of fifteen dollars every month on the threat of loss of access if those payments should lapse. I'm not sure how you can possibly sustain an argument that the morality of playing veteran is tantamount to the morality of playing a P2P 29.

 

[Kincaide]

again, if you BUY something , its not free. veterans wont be p2ps because they dont have to pay monthly, they wont be f2p either because they HAVE TO buy the game.
get used to the feeling that all of you future veterans are no f2p anymore, means no more crying about evil p2ps.

Man, you ALMOST had the point here. You make a great argument about why the terms "F2P" and "P2P" simply cannot be used any more with any accuracy, yet your concluding sentence still tries to force it back into that f2p/p2p dichotomy.

 

[Conq]

again, if you BUY something , its not free. veterans wont be p2ps because they dont have to pay monthly, they wont be f2p either because they HAVE TO buy the game.
get used to the feeling that all of you future veterans are no f2p anymore, means no more crying about evil p2ps.

That being said, what bracket do you go too? Most of you have played 19s in the past and 29s, right now anyone who has played both brackets will tell you hands down that the 19s bracket is better, especially once the impact on the Queues changes due too this new game play style. I think the choice is obvious.

 

[Kincaide]

That being said, what bracket do you go too? Most of you have played 19s in the past and 29s, right now anyone who has played both brackets will tell you hands down that the 19s bracket is better, especially once the impact on the Queues changes due too this new game play style.

Trust me Conq, you're preaching to the choir here. If they allow Veterans to lock XP, I believe most Veterans will be playing at 19. Especially now that there's a mount too.

 

[Conq]

Trust me Conq, you're preaching to the choir here. If they allow Veterans to lock XP, I believe most Veterans will be playing at 19. Especially now that there's a mount too.

Well lets talk about how awesome that is. Yall needa get on yo twitch and twittah games.

 

[Hashbrowns]

An account is either free or not free, its not shades of grey, it either is or it isnt. Once you PAY for that account, it can no longer be called FREE. You can try to spin all sorts of bullshit into this, but a free account does not involve the exchange of money between the account holder and blizzard.

I think this is great line to draw, and maybe I just missed it before. I just hope more people invest a small amount of money so that we can be on par with 29s. Personally I'm not doing it to be OP, just trying to close the gap/guild access. Using these chats/boas to beat up on pure trials is something I will never be doing. If the majority stays pure I wont be using the gear. But please pay the few bucks... There's so much to be offered now

 

[madhombre]

Man, you ALMOST had the point here. You make a great argument about why the terms "F2P" and "P2P" simply cannot be used any more with any accuracy, yet your concluding sentence still tries to force it back into that f2p/p2p dichotomy.

well, i think the last sentence fits. a few f2ps cry about p2ps paying for the game to be overpowered. once you pay for veteran status you do the same (and no, the argument "but they pay more *cryyyyyyy* "doesnt count)

 

[Kincaide]

well, i think the last sentence fits. a few f2ps cry about p2ps paying for the game to be overpowered. once you pay for veteran status you do the same (and yes, benefits like guilds etc count aswell)

Okay. I don't agree. I have never heard a single F2P "cry" because a P2P pays for the game to be overpowered. What I have heard is the legitimate complaint about those people who play in a certain bracket to be overpowered. It has nothing to do with money per se, but the decision to move to a bracket purely because the majority of people you face will be four or nine levels lower than you. That's not about the money, that's about being a good sport.

Plus as has already been pointed out, I've never heard a single person say they plan to go Veteran so that they can beat up on less capable people. I've only heard them say they plan to go Veteran to either close the gap between themselves and those people who DO beat up on less capable people, or to switch to 19s to get away from those people who do beat up on less capable people. If you want to go on a witch hunt against people who play to beat up on less capable people, your appropriate targets are already all around you.

 

[Swoops]

The fallacy of this whole thread is the idea that Veteran accounts are not F2P accounts. If you don't have to pay to play your account, then your account is free to play. You may choose to pay five dollars to get some gear and enchants, but you don't have to pay in order to play your account.

Veteran Edition and Starter Edition accounts are both F2P accounts. And since for sure some former subscribers will come back on Veteran accounts, that means that, contrary to the OP's assertion, F2Ps will actually grow.

I'll just set this mic down here.

The fallacy of this whole thread is that Neon only posted it to get these 10 pages and counting of useless circular debates about paying or not paying for the game