How to balance 19's (final)

[Kore nametooshort]

LOL yes your right a well time interrupt can be game breaking they should just remove them from game.

Sarcasm yes? A well timed 7 second interrupt is too game breaking, 2-5 seconds is more acceptable. Im not going to go over this argument again, if you think you have anything new to add to the subject then please add it, but if its just another rehash its unlikely to be constructive.

 

[Inkobah]

Everyone has a bias. The sooner you can understand that fact and are aware of yours, the better you'll be at managing it. Having said that, enjoy the discussion but be respectful about it. If you're not we'll be dishing out red cards. Yes, this is a friendly warning.



-Ink

 

[augiddin]

Sarcasm yes? A well timed 7 second interrupt is too game breaking, 2-5 seconds is more acceptable. Im not going to go over this argument again, if you think you have anything new to add to the subject then please add it, but if its just another rehash its unlikely to be constructive.

fair enough. You seem to look at this as if your the only healer in the area and your fc has no cds. assuming this is true you have 3 options cc mage so you can free cast, Juke, Or los. I think this is totally reasonable and makes healing about more then losing poly and keeping hots up. Albeit if you have the ability to keep the fc up until rez by a single juke but if you have a rogue on you then you need to juke twice and you cant los him because he will be in melee range the whole time. This is why rogues have kick and mages have cs.



edit: for the record i play a priest and i'm not using a biast in the slightest

 

[Inkobah]

edit: for the record i play a priest and i'm not using a biast in the slightest

For the record: the fact that you claim to not have a bias is a bias in itself.



Enjoying the convo, please keep this thread going and constructive.



-Ink

 

[augiddin]

For the record: the fact that you claim to not have a bias is a bias in itself.



Enjoying the convo, please keep this thread going and constructive.



-Ink

ummmm explain? the fact that i claim i don't have a bias actually proves nothing. stating a fact does not mean the opposite is automatically true?

 

[Inkobah]

ummmm explain? the fact that i claim i don't have a bias actually proves nothing. stating a fact does not mean the opposite is automatically true?

That's for another thread or PM, but I'm not taking a shot at you. Just stating a fact: we're all biased one way or another. /On-topic



-Ink

 

[Kore nametooshort]

fair enough. You seem to look at this as if your the only healer in the area and your fc has no cds. assuming this is true you have 3 options cc mage so you can free cast, Juke, Or los. I think this is totally reasonable and makes healing about more then losing poly and keeping hots up. Albeit if you have the ability to keep the fc up until rez by a single juke but if you have a rogue on you then you need to juke twice and you cant los him because he will be in melee range the whole time. This is why rogues have kick and mages have cs.



edit: for the record i play a priest and i'm not using a biast in the slightest

If you have a mage on O then chances are he's arcane so juking is not often an option. I am all in favour of making the game interesting, but my experiences with counterspell from both sides of the fence have been overpowered. FC's don't have cooldowns to speak of either. The bracket does not have shield wall, survival instincts, frenzied regeneration etc to compensate for when the healers are incapacitated. With my proposed healing nerfs each healing class is taking roughly a third cut to its main source of panic direct healing (HT for druids) so healing back up after recovering from a lockout will take longer and be more intensive. Yes the 30% damage reduction will offset this somewhat, but any competent mage will know to use it when the FC or kill target is low so i still see it ending up more in favour of the mages (iffy i admit, but thats how i see it nonetheless)

 

[augiddin]

If you have a mage on O then chances are he's arcane so juking is not often an option. I am all in favour of making the game interesting, but my experiences with counterspell from both sides of the fence have been overpowered. FC's don't have cooldowns to speak of either. The bracket does not have shield wall, survival instincts, frenzied regeneration etc to compensate for when the healers are incapacitated. With my proposed healing nerfs each healing class is taking roughly a third cut to its main source of panic direct healing (HT for druids) so healing back up after recovering from a lockout will take longer and be more intensive. Yes the 30% damage reduction will offset this somewhat, but any competent mage will know to use it when the FC or kill target is low so i still see it ending up more in favour of the mages (iffy i admit, but thats how i see it nonetheless)

if an fc is low wouldn't a 7 second silent be irrelevant because he would most likely go down in the 5 second silence of a kick? also I think that sadly the blanket silence has to be ignored because as stated before it will not change because of its use in end game .

 

[Kore nametooshort]

if an fc is low wouldn't a 7 second silent be irrelevant because he would most likely go down in the 5 second silence of a kick? also I think that sadly the blanket silence has to be ignored because as stated before it will not change because of its use in end game .

7 seconds is a good 30% longer than kick, its indesputably more difficult to recover from that than a kick, and as i've said i feel that is harder to juke (imp CS nonwithstanding). We cannot ignore the blanket silence of imp CS, it won't go away if we do, the only way of removing it is to remove all of CS.



Now let me ask you this question instead. Do you think mages will be gimped without counterspell? They already have utility in mobile dps, sheep and control. I would still bring one on my premade and i would still enjoy playing mine without counterspell. I do not feel the need for counterspell and mages survived well enough without it preshattering and their offense and mobility has increased since then.

 

[Severe]

This is blantantly untrue, yes there is a positive correlation between rating a knowedge of the game but neither is causal of the other. They are both the result of intellegence and skill. If anything rating is due to knowledge, not the otherway around. You stating this is detrimental to your argument.

This is blatently true, sorry. There is a very obvious correlation between rating and knowledge of the game, intelligence and skill. The fact that I have to explain this to you as if it was a discussion is saddening. It is simply true. I refer you to this which explains it better Good Sportsmenship, The Sad State of Arena (Players), How to get your Items Restored | World of Ming | WoW Riot | WotLK, Wrath of the Lich King, WoW, World of Warcraft, Arena Season 5, if you look away from the obvious trolling.



Also you just said rating doesn't cause knowledge, knowledge causes rating. What?? The higher your rating, the more knowledge you attain. This is pretty logical, is it not? The higher you go, the more you learn; more knowledge about game mechanics you previously did not have. My statement is not detrimental to my argument whatsoever. Nice attempt at looking clever with words though, but you didn't score so high at substance.

Ok, lets explore this with the other suggestions in mind with nothing on or off the table (depending on which side of the pond your are on). At the moment you claim that ambush crits can reduce the squishiest class to 50%. With the 30% damage reduction ambush will only do 35% damage. Thats about 525, take a futher 200 off that since any smart mage will have mana shield on him and the mage has taken 25-30% damage at the most. This seems much fairer, nerfing it further for a class that relies on its openers would be unfair.

But the class won't rely on it's opener once other damage is buffed as you propose. Thus there is no need to have a huge bursty opener and then finish it off with even more damage. The fact that an ambush in your scenario would take down 200 mana and 30% of hp is still too much for an unavoidable and unpredictable attack.

Yes I must have no understanding of how level 19 works (because it is so very confusing and complicated, rofl please) because I point out mages die when anything connects with them. And I didn't say I'm a seven time gladiator, however I am farily certain that my understanding of PvP mechanics are far greater than yours. Even be it 19 twinking and I just started.

You refute your own argument, it is quite bizzare and hypocritical.

No, I do not. Once again you are trying to appear clever. The first part is sarcasm obviously, to prove my point further.



Anyway, point is these changes SEEM nice, but if you actually know mechanics they're not so great.



To keep it constructive: I'd suggest you drop a lot of your proposed changes, leave the general ones in (such as overall 30% dmg reduction) and focus on realistic changes which do not fundamentally change classes, such as soul link being trainable at level 16, or # Scattershot is now learned at level 26 and # Disengage is now learned at level 20, as these are most needed things. You're trying to revamp a bracket without the chance to test the changes and without proper theorycrafting (you call it that, ej calls it thottbot comments). The effort is good, however effort alone won't fix something.

 

[Crucif]

Capitalize "make" for number 6.



#16 and #24 are bad changes. 16 should be replaced with Disengage. Also, maybe mention something about having all Hunter pet abilities raised to level 20 since they raised the majority of them already.

Do you feel important now? Crucifer #1

 

[augiddin]

7 seconds is a good 30% longer than kick, its indesputably more difficult to recover from that than a kick, and as i've said i feel that is harder to juke (imp CS nonwithstanding). We cannot ignore the blanket silence of imp CS, it won't go away if we do, the only way of removing it is to remove all of CS.



Now let me ask you this question instead. Do you think mages will be gimped without counterspell? They already have utility in mobile dps, sheep and control. I would still bring one on my premade and i would still enjoy playing mine without counterspell. I do not feel the need for counterspell and mages survived well enough without it preshattering and their offense and mobility has increased since then.

ok i totally agree with you about imp cs. I don't think its a matter of mages being gimped without it. yes they have mobile dps but only as arcane, your suggesting removal of nova right? so no they have little control. the thing is they will not remove it from this bracket because then you have two talent points in the first tier totally useless which they don't want. also a 30% damage nerf will hurt arcane mages because after their cd's to keep off melee they are dead even with mana shield so if they can't burst someone down they are pretty much dead. Also my point about the 7 seconds of cs bieng irrelevent is becuase a good mage isn't going to use it unless the O is set up for a kill in which case kick would be just as effective.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

ok i totally agree with you about imp cs. I don't think its a matter of mages being gimped without it. yes they have mobile dps but only as arcane, your suggesting removal of nova right? so no they have little control. the thing is they will not remove it from this bracket because then you have two talent points in the first tier totally useless which they don't want. also a 30% damage nerf will hurt arcane mages because after their cd's to keep off melee they are dead even with mana shield so if they can't burst someone down they are pretty much dead. Also my point about the 7 seconds of cs bieng irrelevent is becuase a good mage isn't going to use it unless the O is set up for a kill in which case kick would be just as effective.

The nova change has been dropped. The only spell i am suggesting being removed atm is CS. It is not unprecidented for blizzard to have talents available for players before they get the ability. I disagree with your point about mages being burst down once their CDs are spent. They have two 15 second CDs, up to two more 25second CD and mana shield. Along with a healer this should be more than enough to keep going indefinately.

 

[Severe]

Along with a healer this should be more than enough to keep going indefinately.

This is not true at all. Unless the mage is dying a lot he will be oom 70% of the time. Any decent mage is using mana like crazy, putting pressure on a target while keeping others cc'd and keeping melee off himself. Evo doesn't bring back 100% mana and isn't instant, as well as being a 5min cd. If you're not going oom at all you're either A) simply spamming damage into random targets before you die B) only cc'ing without doing damage, which will also result in ooming sooner or later or C) dying frequently. Mana shield simply isn't good other than in 1v1 scenarios/a few, exclusive situations.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

This is blatently true, sorry. There is a very obvious correlation between rating and knowledge of the game, intelligence and skill. The fact that I have to explain this to you as if it was a discussion is saddening. It is simply true. I refer you to this which explains it better Good Sportsmenship, The Sad State of Arena (Players), How to get your Items Restored | World of Ming | WoW Riot | WotLK, Wrath of the Lich King, WoW, World of Warcraft, Arena Season 5, if you look away from the obvious trolling.



Also you just said rating doesn't cause knowledge, knowledge causes rating. What?? The higher your rating, the more knowledge you attain. This is pretty logical, is it not? The higher you go, the more you learn; more knowledge about game mechanics you previously did not have. My statement is not detrimental to my argument whatsoever. Nice attempt at looking clever with words though, but you didn't score so high at substance.

I did not deny the correlation, i denied the casuality. I stated that neither rating nor knowledge causes one another, they are both due to a third factor, thus you do not need rating to prove knowledge. I said that if anything knowledge causes rating because you need knowledge to be skillful enough to achieve the rating. Anyway, this is totally irrelevant to the thread. I am going to present this to blizzard regardless of whether you deem the feedback here appropriate or not due to a lack of rating.

But the class won't rely on it's opener once other damage is buffed as you propose. Thus there is no need to have a huge bursty opener and then finish it off with even more damage. The fact that an ambush in your scenario would take down 200 mana and 30% of hp is still too much for an unavoidable and unpredictable attack.

If you remove the burst from a rogue you damage the classes integrity and its only utility will be in its interrupts. Wasn't drastically changing classes something you objected to with mages? 30% hp would be for mages with lower than advisable levels of health, it would in reality be lower than that. I feel that it is fair enough and 20-30% health is easily topped up by a healer and in the mean time the mage has ample tools to escape and survive.

Anyway, point is these changes SEEM nice, but if you actually know mechanics they're not so great.



To keep it constructive: I'd suggest you drop a lot of your proposed changes, leave the general ones in (such as overall 30% dmg reduction) and focus on realistic changes which do not fundamentally change classes, such as soul link being trainable at level 16, or # Scattershot is now learned at level 26 and # Disengage is now learned at level 20, as these are most needed things. You're trying to revamp a bracket without the chance to test the changes and without proper theorycrafting (you call it that, ej calls it thottbot comments). The effort is good, however effort alone won't fix something.

I appreciate your worry, but I am confused about which changes you would keep and which you would not. Surely scattershot is in the same boat as counterspell.

This is not true at all. Unless the mage is dying a lot he will be oom 70% of the time. Any decent mage is using mana like crazy, putting pressure on a target while keeping others cc'd and keeping melee off himself. Evo doesn't bring back 100% mana and isn't instant, as well as being a 5min cd. If you're not going oom at all you're either A) simply spamming damage into random targets before you die B) only cc'ing without doing damage, which will also result in ooming sooner or later or C) dying frequently. Mana shield simply isn't good other than in 1v1 scenarios/a few, exclusive situations.

And mana shouldn't be an issue? This is something that healers have had to contend with since the dawn of twinking and it has worked well enough. Defensive mages carry a similar role to healers, so i feel this is fair. When i said indefinately i really should have said for longer than it takes for their abilities to come back off cooldown.



Just a minor point, evo is on a 4 min CD.

 

[Severe]

If you remove the burst from a rogue you damage the classes integrity and its only utility will be in its interrupts. Wasn't drastically changing classes something you objected to with mages? 30% hp would be for mages with lower than advisable levels of health, it would in reality be lower than that. I feel that it is fair enough and 20-30% health is easily topped up by a healer and in the mean time the mage has ample tools to escape and survive.

I never said remove their burst, I said relocate it. I'm sorry, but it is so frustrating when you do not read properly. Damage out of ambush -> sinister strike/eviscerate, instead of simply more damage into sinister/eviscerate.

I appreciate your worry, but I am confused about which changes you would keep and which you would not. Surely scattershot is in the same boat as counterspell.

No, scattershot is not in the same boat as CS at all. Hunters are far less squishy, put out a lot more pressure while still being extremely mobile, and destroys any caster easily without scatter shot. Comparing the two is simply wrong. And to what you said about rating/knowledge etc, however nice you put it you're bringing up a logical fallacy that cannot be refuted even with all the cool words you can find in a dictionary. It is simply a fact that the higher your rating goes up, you attain more experience and more knowledge. But as you said, this is not relevant to our current discussion. I'll take a look at what changes should be kept and which shouldn't, stay tuned.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

I never said remove their burst, I said relocate it. I'm sorry, but it is so frustrating when you do not read properly. Damage out of ambush -> sinister strike/eviscerate, instead of simply more damage into sinister/eviscerate.

SS/evisc is not a rogues burst, it is their sustainable damage. The rogue class revolves around its openers, especially sub. Even moving this to Evisc rather than ambush would have drastic consequences for rogue game play. For the better or the worse this will not be appealing to blizzard.

 

[augiddin]

SS/evisc is not a rogues burst, it is their sustainable damage. The rogue class revolves around its openers, especially sub. Even moving this to Evisc rather than ambush would have drastic consequences for rogue game play

well if the class revolves around unavoidable damage and if popped out of stealth is then incapable of bursting then it should be redesigned.

 

[Severe]

1. Skull Bash is now learned at level 18 – too much, do not keep

2. Starsurge is no longer the specialisation ability of the balance tree, Typhoon is. Starsurge will take its place in the talent tree – will never happen, but would be nice to see

3. Nature's Grasp is now learned at level 14 – 3 charges now, without dispels it might be too much unless mobility is heavily buffed





Hunter

5. Hunters learn a skill at level 60 which allows them to autoshoot while moving (re: 4.0.6 change) to prevent hunters gaining an unnecessary buff in 4.0.6 – not realistic

6. Ranged weapon damage reduced by 10% - not realistic

7. The damage of Explosive Shot has been reduced by 20% at level 19 – good, but not realistic

8. Increase the health of all hunter pets by 20% below level 40 – probably not going to happen



Mage

9. Counterspell is now learned at level 20 – already debated, not healthy for the game/much needed for mages

10. Pyroblast is no longer the specialisation ability of the fire talent tree, it is replaced by blastwave. Pyroblast will take its place in the talent tree – fire, who cares

11. Scorch is now learned at level 10 – decent, could go bad, depends how mana consuming it will be

12. Mana Shield is now learned at level 12 – basically useless



Paladin

13. Hand of Freedom is now learned at level 8 – if shamans became viable this would be fine

14. The base damage of exorcism has been lowered by 30% at level 19 - unrealistic

15. Templar's Verdict now scales with 30/70/180% weapon damage below level 60

16. The healing done by Flash of Light has been decreased by 33% at level 19 (so that it heals for roughly 350 on a fully BiS Holy twink) – you need to specify this more, I doubt blizzard wants to see BiS holy twink, nor bother checking what it is



Priest

17. The base damage of penance has been lowered by 40% at level 19

18. The damage of the direct portion of Holy Fire has been reduced by 30% at level 19

19. The damage of Mind Blast has been increased by 60% (disregarding any 4.0.6 changes) at level 19 – then disregard this as mind blast is being buffed in 4.0.6

20. The damage of Shadow Word: Pain has been increased by 20% at level 19 – no, while it would be good for shadow, it is too much for disc

21. The damage of Mind Flay has been increased by 20% at level 19

22. The healing of Flash Heal has been reduced by 30% (so that it heals for roughly 300 on a fully BiS twink) at level 19

23. The mana cost and effectiveness of Power Word: Shield have both been increased by 30% (regardless of any changes at endgame) –can’t disregard the first major pvp balance patch, instead wait for it to hit and then come with a suggestion, or ask for it not to apply to lower levels



Rogue

24. Sinister Strike Damage has been increased by 30% at level 19 – more to eviscerate so rogues will have to get pts up and choose between recup and evisc

25. Eviscerate damage has been increased by 20% at level 19

Then ambush coefficient should also be lowered.



Shaman

26. Healing Surge is now learned at level 10, however its heal at level 19 is reduced by 35% (so that it heals for roughly 300 on a fully BiS resto twink)

27. Frost Shock is now learned at level 16 – no, it would hit for too much and without dispels enh shams will have 100% uptime

28. Earth Shield is no longer the specialisation ability for the restoration talent tree, it is replaced by Riptide. Earth Shield will take it's place in the talent tree. – highly unrealistic, pointless to have





Warrior

31. Intercept is now learned at level 14 – what’s the point? Charge and intercept will share cd in 4.0.6

32. Mortal strike now hits for 100% weapon damage at level 19 – too much if you want overpower

33. Overpower is now learned at level 18

34. *New* Arms now has a new part to its specialisation "Whenever your Rend ability causes damage, you have a 40% chance of allowing the use of Overpower for 9 sec. This effect will not occur more than once every 5 sec." The talent taste for blood would then have its Overpower proc chance portion changed to an additional 0/30/60% chance.- VERY unrealistic, to the point of making the entire suggestion look silly in blizzard’s eyes, and generally losing its credibility



Everything I left out could stay. Did it rather fast, so might've missed/rushed something. Some very unrealistic changes should just be removed in order to save credibility in Blizzard's eyes. However the most important thing is the first paragraph of your post, those suggestions are good and very needed, and I would shorten it to just that paragraph as it is more realistic seeing those changes than what you have listed, and leave it to blizzard to apply them in some shape or form.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

1. Skull Bash is now learned at level 18 – too much, do not keep

3. Nature's Grasp is now learned at level 14 – 3 charges now, without dispels it might be too much unless mobility is heavily buffed



Mage

10. Pyroblast is no longer the specialisation ability of the fire talent tree, it is replaced by blastwave. Pyroblast will take its place in the talent tree – fire, who cares

11. Scorch is now learned at level 10 – decent, could go bad, depends how mana consuming it will be



Paladin

13. Hand of Freedom is now learned at level 8 – if shamans became viable this would be fine

16. The healing done by Flash of Light has been decreased by 33% at level 19 (so that it heals for roughly 350 on a fully BiS Holy twink) – you need to specify this more, I doubt blizzard wants to see BiS holy twink, nor bother checking what it is



Priest

19. The damage of Mind Blast has been increased by 60% (disregarding any 4.0.6 changes) at level 19 – then disregard this as mind blast is being buffed in 4.0.6

20. The damage of Shadow Word: Pain has been increased by 20% at level 19 – no, while it would be good for shadow, it is too much for disc

23. The mana cost and effectiveness of Power Word: Shield have both been increased by 30% (regardless of any changes at endgame) can't disregard the first major pvp balance patch, instead wait for it to hit and then come with a suggestion, or ask for it not to apply to lower levels



Rogue

24. Sinister Strike Damage has been increased by 30% at level 19 – more to eviscerate so rogues will have to get pts up and choose between recup and evisc

25. Eviscerate damage has been increased by 20% at level 19

Then ambush coefficient should also be lowered.



Shaman

27. Frost Shock is now learned at level 16 – no, it would hit for too much and without dispels enh shams will have 100% uptime



Warrior

31. Intercept is now learned at level 14 – what’s the point? Charge and intercept will share cd in 4.0.6

32. Mortal strike now hits for 100% weapon damage at level 19 – too much if you want overpower





Everything I left out could stay. Did it rather fast, so might've missed/rushed something. Some very unrealistic changes should just be removed in order to save credibility in Blizzard's eyes.

"its unrealistic" - Thats a risk I'm willing to take. Without many of those changes the bracket will remain unbalanced.



1- Skull bash has a very lengthy cooldown, it could not be used with impunity. As it is now feral has very little utility and simply feels like you are playing a glorifed pet. With this one long CD it will give more utility without being over powered

3- Mobility is being buffed heavily. Grasp wasn't a huge problem in 3.3.5 and with improved trinkets and increased mobility it wont be a problem again.

10- Fire is the best spec, yo!

13- All paladins are in dire need of a mobility buff. The class is indisputably gimped without it

16- The BiS twink part was for the benefit of TI members. I have investigated FoL at lower levels of gear and have concluded that 33% reduction is a good solution at all levels of gear

19- Blizz'z changes to mind blast have been all over the shop, i wanted to be clear how it should be with regards to 4.0.3

20- Disc is an offensive healer, however its problems were in its burst. Giving Disc an improved dot will compensate for that somewhat. I don't think it will be overpowered

23- Leaving the PW:S changes to go ahead would be extremely unbalanced

24&25- I dont know where you have got those numbers from, they are not the same as the OP. I have stated what i think of this in previous posts.

27- Enhance have no gap closing cooldowns. If they get shaken off by a trinket, defensive CD, root etc then they have to regain distance with ghostwolf. The discussions i have had with other members have concluded that this is a viable change.

31- Charge and intercept will only share CD if you spec into juggernaut deep into arms tree. This point is irrelevant.

32- Too much damage? This is a damage nerf...