How to balance 19's (final)

[Severe]

Also something that hasn't been touched on is your idea of buffing rogue damage because it is too low outside of ambush (it's actually very decent, don't know where this conception is coming from, rogues have kick and gouge to lock something down, making up for lower damage), while not touching current ambush damage at all. You HAVE to reduce ambush damage if you want to buff sinister strike and eviscerate. This just shows how little thought you have on the balance as a whole, and why individual changes you propose will simply add to more imbalance. It seems easy to just "hey lol lets give them more dmg", but that's not how it works, and that's not what will balance this bracket.

 

[Evade]

other than the fact that, this is not true, would you mind telling me WHY? instead of just proving your ignorance..

because if a rogue is just spamming kick on whoever he sees casting a spell. that person is bound for failure, with the amount of healers in the bracket. It is usually a waste to use it on a dps class(9 times out of 10)

 

[Severe]

because if a rogue is just spamming kick on whoever he sees casting a spell. that person is bound for failure, with the amount of healers in the bracket. It is usually a waste to use it on a dps class(9 times out of 10)

But that doesn't disprove his point though, it is the same deal with mages' CS, except rogue kick is a 10 second cooldown.. Anyway both rogues and mages are fine, and the only tweaks needed is less ambush damage for rogues -> more damage outside of ambush, while mages need better survivability.

 

[Llare]

Also something that hasn't been touched on is your idea of buffing rogue damage because it is too low outside of ambush (it's actually very decent, don't know where this conception is coming from, rogues have kick and gouge to lock something down, making up for lower damage), while not touching current ambush damage at all. You HAVE to reduce ambush damage if you want to buff sinister strike and eviscerate. This just shows how little thought you have on the balance as a whole, and why individual changes you propose will simply add to more imbalance. It seems easy to just "hey lol lets give them more dmg", but that's not how it works, and that's not what will balance this bracket.

Stop knitpicking because you've been beaten on the mage subject.



Ok, I won't troll.



Stop knitpicking, alot of thought has gone into this. Recognise that.



Anyone can knitpick, I found plenty of faults with your "argument" about Mages.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

To answer your question you can't do much to help paladins mobility so their burst would need to be able to compensate.



Now that I think about it hand of freedom + the 6 second hammer of justice would be a lot of time on target so another way to balance paladins might be to give back a little bit of damage to the abilities like exo and templars but reduce the duration of Hammer of justice to like 3-4 seconds. That's the main reasons paladins are annoying hammer + exo is just stupid.

What wait? Hammer and exo is stupid so you want it back? Im missing something here. Im more inclined to go along the root of lower damage but higher ToT, you're the paladin pro here so feel free to dispute that, but i would have thought that something like self cleansing with Acts of Sacrifice - Spell - World of Warcraft with lower damage would be more enjoyable to play.

But that doesn't disprove his point though, it is the same deal with mages' CS, except rogue kick is a 10 second cooldown.. Anyway both rogues and mages are fine, and the only tweaks needed is less ambush damage for rogues -> more damage outside of ambush, while mages need better survivability.

Stop knitpicking because you've been beaten on the mage subject.



Ok, I won't troll.



Stop knitpicking, alot of thought has gone into this. Recognise that.



Anyone can knitpick, I found plenty of faults with your "argument" about Mages.

As stated before in this thread kick =/= CS. Kick has a 30% short duration than a 7sec CS, it is more predictable, not at range and possible to fake. This is just going around the same points as before so i'll leave it there. There has not been much feedback in the multiple threads and discussion groups asking for a lowering of ambush damage. If you feel this is something that needs to be discussed then please go ahead. I can assure you that a lot of thought has gone into this, not just my thought, but that of many other players as well. Your opinion is not the only one here.

 

[Llare]

To answer your question you can't do much to help paladins mobility so their burst would need to be able to compensate.



Now that I think about it hand of freedom + the 6 second hammer of justice would be a lot of time on target so another way to balance paladins might be to give back a little bit of damage to the abilities like exo and templars but reduce the duration of Hammer of justice to like 3-4 seconds. That's the main reasons paladins are annoying hammer + exo is just stupid.

Add a +10 Second CD to it, how it was before. Holy shouldn't be able to dish out spammable damage and Ret and Prot shouldn't have spammable damage at range.



But Ret and Prot still need ToT, even if HoJ needs to be nerfed down to a 3-4 Sec duration, HoF would be a great addition.



Templar doesn't need more damage. Buff Crusader Strike and nerf Templar.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

Add a +10 Second CD to it, how it was before. Holy shouldn't be able to dish out spammable damage and Ret and Prot shouldn't have spammable damage at range.



But Ret and Prot still need ToT, even if HoJ needs to be nerfed down to a 3-4 Sec duration, HoF would be a great addition.



Templar doesn't need more damage. Buff Crusader Strike and nerf Templar.

Not much chance of blizz accepting a CD on exorcism im afraid.

 

[Llare]

Not much chance of blizz accepting a CD on exorcism im afraid.

Wishful thinking. Then nerf it's damage; hugely.



Shouldn't be any possibility of having a "caster exodin".

 

[Severe]

Stop knitpicking because you've been beaten on the mage subject.



Ok, I won't troll.



Stop knitpicking, alot of thought has gone into this. Recognise that.



Anyone can knitpick, I found plenty of faults with your "argument" about Mages.

What subject did I lose? That you as a healer are not good enough at this game and so want everything to work in a way that lets you do whatever you want on your overgeared, five button, level 19 character?



Ok, I won't troll.



What knitpicking? "A lot of thought has gone into this", ok so what? Just because it took you long, that means it's right? I'm sorry, until you can prove you're a consistant Gladiator level player your opinions on PvP balance are pretty much void.



And I found plenty of faults with your "argument" about mages. Just because the OP agrees with you (of course he would, "he put a lot of thought into it"), doesn't mean you're right at all.



Anyway, go ahead and post it, barely anything of it will happen. And if it did, you'd be proven how wrong you were in the first place, creating new imbalances all over the place.

multiple threads and discussion groups asking for a lowering of ambush damage. If you feel this is something that needs to be discussed then please go ahead. I can assure you that a lot of thought has gone into this, not just my thought, but that of many other players as well. Your opinion is not the only one here.

And? If you boost rogue damage the way you want, ambush needs to be lowered as it already does huge amounts (read, regularly taking people down 50% of hp). It's pretty logical. Good to know many other players put a lot of thought into it, I have yet to see a good point defending the proposed mage changes (read, removal of CS), instead of the game not suiting your playstyle. The only people apart from Blizzard who are able to understand game mechanics enough to balance the PvP aspect of the game are the ones with seven gladiator titles or more. Proven by these proposed changes, you do not understand mechanics to the level of proposing fundamental class changes. Changes such as 30% less damage overall however is something else.

 

[Tinkerton]

Thank you for making this Thread, you obviously put a lot of time in it.



As I understand the changes are meant as a whole, I don't want to comment on every little aspect, and generally I can see why people would want to change things around a bit.



Playing primarily Tank specs (Pal, Druid, Warr) since 2009, I do however think I should give my opinion on 25 and Protadins in general.



Instead of moving Consecrate to an earlier level, as far as Tanking goes I would much more prefer to have Righteous Defense back to 16.



I always liked it more than Consecrate, as it at least involved putting in some thought into my actions, instead of just waltzing in, spam an AoE, and if by some twist of fate things went pear-shaped I could just Bubble etc. and Res any casualties (which is why I didn't mind 'Thunderclap Tanking' - as a Warrior, I have- had? - to watch out the Healer didn't die). Sure, with LFD quickly becoming a cesspit before the midnight hour playing a Protadin was less of a chore exactly because you are basically a one-man wrecking crew, but more fun by itself? No.



This would also be going back to what imo makes for a fun game (and which 4.0.1 so brutally slaughtered) ie more/earlier utility and less damage/LOL skills (in a similar vein, I prefered the old pre-4.0.1. Blastwave but fat chance of that being changed back).



As far as AoE damage - AS kinda provides that as far as Tanking goes and personally I'd prefer it to go back to lvl 50ish instead of being nerfed to the ground. I'd rather have a cool ability to look forward to than an almost irrelevant one that just has shiny colors.



Also, AS gets partially imbalanced due to Exorcism - in a sense it isn't so much the Disc that gets you, it's the fact that it can be backed up by a prompt Excorcism (which frankly may very well be better balanced as a non-Humanoid affecting attack - though again fat chance of that happening).



IMO the main reason Protadins are broken in PvE is that the whole Holy power-Word of Glory mechanic is broken in Player vs Meatsack a.k.a Mob.



Post 4.0.1., my then-19 Protadin could fish in STV all but completely unmolested because I could go man-to-man with a singular melee Pirate, unbuffed, and at 28 I could finish the whole Nessingwary chain solo with just one death to Bengalash' adds (Bengie died before) and The Corruptor was a cake-walk. Why? Because of the 'free healing' the whole HP mechanic provides combined with Meatsack AI being nada (except for fleers, Mobs in WoW are for all intents and purposes stationary - and even fleers just return eventually to get slaughtered) I could simply spam attacks, get 3 HP, heal up without losing nary a beat, rince and repeat.



(The other 'free healing' mechanics can also affect things that way in PvMeatsack, after eg getting my Wingblade and the other Dungeon rewards my lvl 10 - also Heirloomless - Prot Warrior could literally solo all other available pre-Shattering Horde Quests, up to and including Isha Awak and the 'Barrens Rares')



In short, I was very disappointed with 4.0.1. in this regard as going after 27-29's with a 19 before 4.0.1. was cool, and I'd lie if I said that considering how relentlessly nerfed the former King of the Jungle is/ 'Fiery Red' Quests have gone etc. post-Shattering doing that stuff didn't have some measure of fun in it, but at the end of the day it's IMO utterly rediculous that it was - is - even possible in a level-based game.



The question however is wether it affects PvP as much as player controlled foes aren't meatsacks, I know this may sound lame but 'simply' moving away long enough means the whole cycle can get broken. Perhaps making Holy Power buildup fade away more quickly would help things in PvP, without really affecting PvE (which esp. needs loads of Tanks).

 

[Llare]

What knitpicking? "A lot of thought has gone into this", ok so what? Just because it took you long, that means it's right? I'm sorry, until you can prove you're a consistant Gladiator level player your opinions on PvP balance are pretty much void.



And I found plenty of faults with your "argument" about mages. Just because the OP agrees with you (of course he would, "he put a lot of thought into it"), doesn't mean you're right at all.



Anyway, go ahead and post it, barely anything of it will happen. And if it did, you'd be proven how wrong you were in the first place, creating new imbalances all over the place.

19 =/= Endgame.



You aren't paying the slightest bit of attention/listening to others opinions, due to your obvious bias. Opinions which outweigh comments you make in response.



On the subject of CS:

No, it is not. Name one situation where it is gamebreaking, I haven't heard one yet. This argument you pulled out of your arse. "lol when 3 ppl are on fc he should be able to heal instead of getting silenced for 8 sec cus he bad and cant fake, he shud outheal 3 players wtf"

Not to mention:

while mages need better survivability.

You've proven that you have no understanding of the way that level 19 PvP works, Mr presumably "consistant" Gladiator.

The only people apart from Blizzard who are able to understand game mechanics enough to balance the PvP aspect of the game are the ones with seven gladiator titles or more. Proven by these proposed changes, you do not understand mechanics to the level of proposing fundamental class changes. Changes such as 30% less damage overall however is something else.

The whole point in the effort people have made to come to agreement over a subject just such as this; has been formed by people who've been in the 19 Bracket for a long time, who're are unbiased, and who don't throw out obviously wrong comments regarding Gladiators knowing entirely how low level PvP works.

 

[Severe]

19 =/= Endgame.



You aren't paying the slightest bit of attention/listening to others opinions, due to your obvious bias. Opinions which outweigh comments you make in response.

And you're not biased at all mr holypaladin/insert-healer-class? Please.



What's your point with the quotes you brought up? Some guy actually used that as an argument. Mages do need better survivability, what are you on about? Along with locks, mages are the squishiest class. Have you even tried one at this level? Yes I must have no understanding of how level 19 works (because it is so very confusing and complicated, rofl please) because I point out mages die when anything connects with them. And I didn't say I'm a seven time gladiator, however I am farily certain that my understanding of PvP mechanics are far greater than yours. Even be it 19 twinking and I just started. Top level arena/pvp experience is, after all, better than level 19 experience when it comes to balancing the 19 bracket. Refuting this will just prove you have no clue.

The whole point in the effort people have made to come to agreement over a subject just such as this; has been formed by people who've been in the 19 Bracket for a long time, who're are unbiased, and who don't throw out obviously wrong comments regarding Gladiators knowing entirely how low level PvP works.

Who's unbiased? Unless you play every class equally as much, you can't call yourself unbiased. Sorry, but that's how it is. Experience at top level means you know more about fundamental mechanics. This is pretty obvious. Sure you know the droprate of every single twink item, and how to effectively play a level 19 character, but that's about it. Also all I see here is one person who made a topic for changes, and then a lot of people agreeing simply because the current state of the game is extremely unbalanced and people just want change. Doesn't mean this is the right change.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

I'm sorry, until you can prove you're a consistant Gladiator level player your opinions on PvP balance are pretty much void.

This is blantantly untrue, yes there is a positive correlation between rating a knowedge of the game but neither is causal of the other. They are both the result of intellegence and skill. If anything rating is due to knowledge, not the otherway around. You stating this is detrimental to your argument.

And? If you boost rogue damage the way you want, ambush needs to be lowered as it already does huge amounts (read, regularly taking people down 50% of hp). It's pretty logical. Good to know many other players put a lot of thought into it, I have yet to see a good point defending the proposed mage changes (read, removal of CS), instead of the game not suiting your playstyle. The only people apart from Blizzard who are able to understand game mechanics enough to balance the PvP aspect of the game are the ones with seven gladiator titles or more. Proven by these proposed changes, you do not understand mechanics to the level of proposing fundamental class changes. Changes such as 30% less damage overall however is something else.

Ok, lets explore this with the other suggestions in mind with nothing on or off the table (depending on which side of the pond your are on). At the moment you claim that ambush crits can reduce the squishiest class to 50%. With the 30% damage reduction ambush will only do 35% damage. Thats about 525, take a futher 200 off that since any smart mage will have mana shield on him and the mage has taken 25-30% damage at the most. This seems much fairer, nerfing it further for a class that relies on its openers would be unfair.

I'd rather have Righteous fury than concecration



I dont want AS nerfed, i'd rather not have it at low levels and have it all exciting at high levels



In pve paladins have far too much survivability

Sorry i paraphrased your quote, it was quite large



Your comment about righteous fury is very interesting, and i like it. I'm not sure how keen blizzard will be, but i will definately consider suggesting it instead.



I agree partly with your sentiment about AS, but remember that this change is only for low levels and will scale back to normal by level 40ish. I would love to have AS as an exciting move at 19, but prots are simply too powerful in pvp



I have suggested that FoL be nerfed, but im not really sure what more can be done to lower prot survivability or if i agree that it needs to go any further down. WoG needs to be kept in order to give prot and holy a move to use with HP and inquisition cannot be implemented in its place because it would increase prot's damage by too much and wog is pretty crucial to a balanced holy paladin. This should definately be explored further though

 

[Mrcer]

What subject did I lose? That you as a healer are not good enough at this game and so want everything to work in a way that lets you do whatever you want on your overgeared, five button, level 19 character?



Ok, I won't troll.



What knitpicking? "A lot of thought has gone into this", ok so what? Just because it took you long, that means it's right? I'm sorry, until you can prove you're a consistant Gladiator level player your opinions on PvP balance are pretty much void.



And I found plenty of faults with your "argument" about mages. Just because the OP agrees with you (of course he would, "he put a lot of thought into it"), doesn't mean you're right at all.



Anyway, go ahead and post it, barely anything of it will happen. And if it did, you'd be proven how wrong you were in the first place, creating new imbalances all over the place.







And? If you boost rogue damage the way you want, ambush needs to be lowered as it already does huge amounts (read, regularly taking people down 50% of hp). It's pretty logical. Good to know many other players put a lot of thought into it, I have yet to see a good point defending the proposed mage changes (read, removal of CS), instead of the game not suiting your playstyle. The only people apart from Blizzard who are able to understand game mechanics enough to balance the PvP aspect of the game are the ones with seven gladiator titles or more. Proven by these proposed changes, you do not understand mechanics to the level of proposing fundamental class changes. Changes such as 30% less damage overall however is something else.

Your total 22 posts in TI shows that you have no idea how to stay on topic without debating with others who is right/wrong. This topic is to give your opinions to Kore on how he can improve the list of things to change to balance this bracket. So if your going to debate, don't be surprised if an administrator comes in here to yell at you. If you have anything CONSTRUCTIVE to say to Kore so he can improve his list of changes, say so and provide good evidence that backs up your request for different changes that he has not already said or hasn't said. Don't waste your time here posting random nonsense if your not going to even be helpful. The only reason you should post here is to either compliment kore for putting weeks and weeks into this or let him know you disagree with this and support it without /facerolling your keyboard for being told your wrong.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

And you're not biased at all mr holypaladin/insert-healer-class? Please.

No, I am not biased, I am trying to remain as objective as possible. I am a great deal less biased than you seem to be.

Mages do need better survivability, what are you on about? Along with locks, mages are the squishiest class. Have you even tried one at this level?

Yes they do, but that has been addressed. A base 30% decrease on ALL incoming damage and a 200 damage shield every 12 seconds will fix that. Simply in your bid to give your class as many tools as possible you have missed that.

Yes I must have no understanding of how level 19 works (because it is so very confusing and complicated, rofl please) because I point out mages die when anything connects with them. And I didn't say I'm a seven time gladiator, however I am farily certain that my understanding of PvP mechanics are far greater than yours. Even be it 19 twinking and I just started.

You refute your own argument, it is quite bizzare and hypocritical.

Top level arena/pvp experience is, after all, better than level 19 experience when it comes to balancing the 19 bracket. Refuting this will just prove you have no clue.

I do refute that, but i deny your verdict. I am a pvper in both the 19 and 85 bracket and i can quite safely say that without more than a basic knowledge of the 19 bracket it would be very difficult to balance it effectively.

Who's unbiased? Unless you play every class equally as much, you can't call yourself unbiased. Sorry, but that's how it is.

I have played 6 classes as much as possible in the last month in a bid to rid myself of pre conceived notions regarding various classes and i have consulted heavily with players of all classes

Experience at top level means you know more about fundamental mechanics. This is pretty obvious. Sure you know the droprate of every single twink item, and how to effectively play a level 19 character, but that's about it. Also all I see here is one person who made a topic for changes, and then a lot of people agreeing simply because the current state of the game is extremely unbalanced and people just want change. Doesn't mean this is the right change.

People here are not lapdogs or yes men and i find it insulting on their behalf that you would say that they are. There are very many great theorycrafters on this site and they know for them selves what would and would not benefit the bracket. Other players than yourself have offered criticism of various points and i have paid them attention too. You are simply blind.

 

[augiddin]

I think that stating that cs is harder to fake because its ranged is lame ever heard of shs kick?

 

[Kore nametooshort]

I think that stating that cs is harder to fake because its ranged is lame ever heard of shs kick?

It is harder to fake (imp CS non withstanding) because it has a longer cooldown so the mage won't be able to use it with as much impunity, thus the caster doesnt know precisely when it will be Counterspell'd. The range was meant as an extra benefit of CS since it doesnt require another cooldown to use at range. I aplogise if i gave the impression that i meant it would make it easier to fake.

 

[augiddin]

It is harder to fake (imp CS non withstanding) because it has a longer cooldown so the mage won't be able to use it with as much impunity, thus the caster doesnt know precisely when it will be Counterspell'd. The range was meant as an extra benefit of CS since it doesnt require another cooldown to use at range. I aplogise if i gave the impression that i meant it would make it easier to fake.

or maybe its easier to fake because the its pretty obvious when a cs will guarantee a kill?

 

[Kore nametooshort]

or maybe its easier to fake because the its pretty obvious when a cs will guarantee a kill?

Regardless that makes CS too powerful, no?

 

[augiddin]

Regardless that makes CS too powerful, no?

LOL yes your right a well time interrupt can be game breaking they should just remove them from game.