How to balance 19's (final)

[Grabco]

Kore I love the changes so far I think you did a great job at taking suggestions. I agree with all of the changes but I would like to consider the possibility of making the bracket DYNAMIC as well as balanced. If all classes were given a 6 sec stun, 8 sec spell lock/interupt on a long CD, 5 sec spell interupt/lock on a short CD, an interupt on a short CD, a quick heal, a long heal, long castable burst, trinket, etc...(I think we get the point) then the bracket would obtain the ultimate balance but would not be dynamic or fun. A few suggested changes are the following:



-Druids don't need Typhoon, Nature's grasp and Roots, Pick one or two (do I sense class bias here?) How can you make druids the ULTIMATE FC by suggesting Natures grasp and a roof knock-off? starsurge is fine (might need a slight reduction in damage) it is on a really long cast.



-Ret paladins burst might also be fine I think we need more ret paladins anyway they are the least played out of all specs. I don't even play my favorite paladin spec because it is not the strongest of the 3 specs. Forget Hand of freedom the real problem is the 6 second stun and the fact that exo is spammable reduce the stun duration to 4 seconds and make exo on a 2 second CD (2.5 with gcd) instead of nerfing it.



Mages need the interupt and rogue kick needs to be nerfed because they have crazy ToT, any rogue could Shadowstep/kickmacro a caster who managed to get range. remove the improved counterspell talent and keep the 7 second lockout. Keep rogue kick but increase the CD to around 12 seconds, also make the kick cost more energy



In general you can preseve dynamic and reduce burst by putting things on a CD so people can spam stuff. Lets think about this, I think we need to revisit some items.

 

[augiddin]

you talk about how grasp and haf weren't op in 3.3.5 but you keep ignoring the balancing factor which is dispel. adding intercept and skull bash isn't going 2 negate instant roots. Also i think all classes need 2 have some kind of burst mechanic eliminating them is not good for any bracket. If i want to pve a target dummy ill go do it ty

 

[Kore nametooshort]

you talk about how grasp and haf weren't op in 3.3.5 but you keep ignoring the balancing factor which is dispel. adding intercept and skull bash isn't going 2 negate instant roots. Also i think all classes need 2 have some kind of burst mechanic eliminating them is not good for any bracket. If i want to pve a target dummy ill go do it ty

Indeed dispel was around in 3.3.5 but other things such as reduced trinket CDs and more mobility will counter that. In 3.3.5 I could quite happily still run rings around a ret paladins without a dispeller with me, it wasnt OP by any means. Reducing the number of charges on grasp might be worthwhile though, but only maybe.



With 3 charges this will catch out 3 melee members of the offense each of whom will have skillstep, intercept etc to regain distance, thus the D still has an effective cooldown, but its not so gamebreaking for the O. If a single melee is trying to catch a single resto healer then i still do not feel its over powered since no dps should succeed in a 1v1 against a healer, and with a couple shadowstep ambushes or Charge->interceptstun MS+HS a melee could still do plenty of damage.

 

[augiddin]

Indeed dispel was around in 3.3.5 but other things such as reduced trinket CDs and more mobility will counter that. In 3.3.5 I could quite happily still run rings around a ret paladins without a dispeller with me, it wasnt OP by any means. Reducing the number of charges on grasp might be worthwhile though, but only maybe.



With 3 charges this will catch out 3 melee members of the offense each of whom will have skillstep, intercept etc to regain distance, thus the D still has an effective cooldown, but its not so gamebreaking for the O. If a single melee is trying to catch a single resto healer then i still do not feel its over powered since no dps should succeed in a 1v1 against a healer, and with a couple shadowstep ambushes or Charge->interceptstun MS+HS a melee could still do plenty of damage.

i think bieng able 2 force the melee to blow a trinket in mid 2 be cc'ed for the next two minutes by a frost mage is pretty gamebreaking. IMO bringing back dispel with these changes would make the game more enjoyable.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

i think bieng able 2 force the melee to blow a trinket in mid 2 be cc'ed for the next two minutes by a frost mage is pretty gamebreaking. IMO bringing back dispel with these changes would make the game more enjoyable.

I do agree that defensive dispels would be great for the game, but i am totally opposed to offensive dispels. The problem is that i see no way of introducing one without the other.

 

[Grabco]

I do agree that defensive dispels would be great for the game, but i am totally opposed to offensive dispels. The problem is that i see no way of introducing one without the other.

updated above post. Good point about natures grasp and skillstep. can't have natures grasp and 2 frost mages without bringing dispels imo.



Has anyone thought about how these changes might affect AB games? seems WSG centric atm right? This is not about balancing 19 WSG it is about balancing 15-19 PVP so defending a flag or fighting at a node would be much different than pursuit games

 

[augiddin]

Grabco just to let you know changes like those you suggested for kick are unrealistic because they effect end game.

 

[Severe]

"its unrealistic" - Thats a risk I'm willing to take. Without many of those changes the bracket will remain unbalanced.



1- Skull bash has a very lengthy cooldown, it could not be used with impunity. As it is now feral has very little utility and simply feels like you are playing a glorifed pet. With this one long CD it will give more utility without being over powered

3- Mobility is being buffed heavily. Grasp wasn't a huge problem in 3.3.5 and with improved trinkets and increased mobility it wont be a problem again.

10- Fire is the best spec, yo!

13- All paladins are in dire need of a mobility buff. The class is indisputably gimped without it

16- The BiS twink part was for the benefit of TI members. I have investigated FoL at lower levels of gear and have concluded that 33% reduction is a good solution at all levels of gear

19- Blizz'z changes to mind blast have been all over the shop, i wanted to be clear how it should be with regards to 4.0.3

20- Disc is an offensive healer, however its problems were in its burst. Giving Disc an improved dot will compensate for that somewhat. I don't think it will be overpowered

23- Leaving the PW:S changes to go ahead would be extremely unbalanced

24&25- I dont know where you have got those numbers from, they are not the same as the OP. I have stated what i think of this in previous posts.

27- Enhance have no gap closing cooldowns. If they get shaken off by a trinket, defensive CD, root etc then they have to regain distance with ghostwolf. The discussions i have had with other members have concluded that this is a viable change.

31- Charge and intercept will only share CD if you spec into juggernaut deep into arms tree. This point is irrelevant.

32- Too much damage? This is a damage nerf...

1- It's still not something that's needed. Ferals already have 100% uptime, and in any case, it is just a gimmick specc if you're running feral as dps and not as FC.

3- So what? The mobility changes you suggest will NOT make up for 3 charges of nature's grasp without dispel in. I'm sorry, but however much you try to argue this (because you're a druid obviously) it is far too overpowered. Forcing a melee to trinket every 1 min, and him still not getting anything out of that trinket, is far too overpowered, I hope you see this.

10 - gimmick specc, the less we care about them the better, as per usual when blizzard try to make gimmick speccs viable they screw shit up.

13 - True, but it's still overbuffing.

23 - nothing you can do about it, disc at 85 are in dire need of buffs. the only way is to ask for pws at lower levels not to be touched

24&25 - my own numbers, why are you disregarding them? like i reasoned - remove damage out of sub -> into ss, but not as much as you suggested, and more than you suggested into eviscerate to make it the rogue's burst move, forcing them to choose between recup and evisc

27- it is not viable at all, no matter what discussion you had with your friends. it has a 6 sec cd and without dispels it means 100% uptime, IF it is trinketted it will be reapplied shortly after - this is the problem, when you are FORCED to trinket, but it won't even pay off. Same as with nature's grasp

31 - my bad

32 - yeah, was rushing it, my bad



It seems as though you are dead intent on not changing things even when it's for the better. The last few pages excellent points have been made but you keep refuting them with VERY circumstantial arguments. Also why would you be willing to "risk" proposing unrealistic changes? It is pointless and makes your entire post lose credibility. If it effects endgame, keep it out, simple as that. If you want it the way you're suggesting, make a private server, if you want change, think what is realistic and what is not.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

-Druids don't need Typhoon, Nature's grasp and Roots, Pick one or two (do I sense class bias here?) How can you make druids the ULTIMATE FC by suggesting Natures grasp and a roof knock-off? starsurge is fine (might need a slight reduction in damage) it is on a really long cast.

I hope not, but as ink said we all have bias. I hadn't considered typhoon being a viable FC spec, but when you put it like that its definately worth taking into account. The problem without typhoon is that balance has little utility and all its casts are damn lengthy. Starsurge is ok, but its just a slighty stronger wrath on a cooldown, a bit boring no? An alternative solution to Balance that might satisfy FC, resto and feral is to keep the specialisations as they are, but reduce starsurge direct damage and possibly wrath and starfire too and introduce insect swarm in addition to grasp. This would make balance less reliant on its overly long casts while maintaining good damage and not giving it godly gap making abilities.

-Ret paladins burst might also be fine I think we need more ret paladins anyway they are the least played out of all specs. I don't even play my favorite paladin spec because it is not the strongest of the 3 specs. Forget Hand of freedom the real problem is the 6 second stun and the fact that exo is spammable reduce the stun duration to 4 seconds and make exo on a 2 second CD (2.5 with gcd) instead of nerfing it.

Ret damage is simply too high, the recounts show it and wsg shows it. I do want to make it a viable spec but i dont think a high burst:ToT ratio is the way to do it. Introducing a CD to exorcism isnt viable im afraid, nerfing its damage is the only way i see of making it balanced and unattractive to the right specs. The stun is quite lengthy and maybe suggesting a shorter duration would be a good idea, but i am worried that paladin ToT would suffer too much.

Mages need the interupt and rogue kick needs to be nerfed because they have crazy ToT, any rogue could Shadowstep/kickmacro a caster who managed to get range. remove the improved counterspell talent and keep the 7 second lockout. Keep rogue kick but increase the CD to around 12 seconds, also make the kick cost more energy

Again, increasing cooldowns is unlikely to appeal to blizzard and removing talents would have effects on endgame which i want to avoid at all costs. I would argue that mages do not need counterspell and are effective without it. I don't see a way of nerfing kick that would be viable, but perhaps removal of gouge would give the desired result.

 

[Severe]

You have to stop with the removal of CC abilities. Gouge is fine, kick is fine, cs is fine. These are core abilities that adds to the skillcap. We don't WANT to be auto attacking or spamming spells into each other. If skirmishes are brought back, I'd rather see someone win on a gouge into fear and sap followed by poly, rather than lol500ambush300sinister strike or owait im rooted gonna trinket, jk rooted again.

 

[augiddin]

damn that would be beast considering sap poly and gouge all are on dr .

 

[Severe]

damn that would be beast considering sap poly and gouge all are on dr .

sap and poly are not on the same DR. and i said a fear inbetween gouge and sap, which means dr is refreshed for the sap. why do you think rmp has such great synergy? But yeah, even when cc is on the same DR you get a few seconds of cc, any top player does it.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

1- It's still not something that's needed. Ferals already have 100% uptime, and in any case, it is just a gimmick specc if you're running feral as dps and not as FC.

3- So what? The mobility changes you suggest will NOT make up for 3 charges of nature's grasp without dispel in. I'm sorry, but however much you try to argue this (because you're a druid obviously) it is far too overpowered. Forcing a melee to trinket every 1 min, and him still not getting anything out of that trinket, is far too overpowered, I hope you see this.

10 - gimmick specc, the less we care about them the better, as per usual when blizzard try to make gimmick speccs viable they screw shit up.

13 - True, but it's still overbuffing.

23 - nothing you can do about it, disc at 85 are in dire need of buffs. the only way is to ask for pws at lower levels not to be touched

24&25 - my own numbers, why are you disregarding them? like i reasoned - remove damage out of sub -> into ss, but not as much as you suggested, and more than you suggested into eviscerate to make it the rogue's burst move, forcing them to choose between recup and evisc

27- it is not viable at all, no matter what discussion you had with your friends. it has a 6 sec cd and without dispels it means 100% uptime, IF it is trinketted it will be reapplied shortly after - this is the problem, when you are FORCED to trinket, but it won't even pay off. Same as with nature's grasp

31 - my bad

32 - yeah, was rushing it, my bad



It seems as though you are dead intent on not changing things even when it's for the better. The last few pages excellent points have been made but you keep refuting them with VERY circumstantial arguments. Also why would you be willing to "risk" proposing unrealistic changes? It is pointless and makes your entire post lose credibility. If it effects endgame, keep it out, simple as that. If you want it the way you're suggesting, make a private server, if you want change, think what is realistic and what is not.

1- ferals will not have 100% uptime with the powershift nerf in 4.0.6

3- Yes 3 charges may be too high and its something im considering

10- changing this will have no effect on other mage specs and its a simple enough change to attempt to make an unattractive spec attractive

13- I could run rings around rets when they had HoF even without dispells. 6seconds snare immunity is not as game breaking as you make out, especially in a bracket with more survivability. Each healer has a tool to deal with it in the form of team mates, HoJ, travelform, ghostwolf and psychic scream and rets need some tools to go tete a tete with other dps classes.

23- This was infact my own thought, but changing the mana cost at low levels is unprecidented (other than from 10-20 on ALL spells) so i am reluctant to suggest changes to the mana cost in respect to the increased mana in 4.0.6. As such healing done needs to be increased to compensate, but maybe a 1:1 ratio is too high.

27- a root, fear, stun, disorientate, powershift, blink, sprint etc will shake off the shaman, the shammy then needs to regain that distance and ghostwolf has a cast time. Keep in mind that FS has a 25 yard range, not as far as other offensive spells such as conc shot, fear, frostbolt etc





Edit: I do not consider some of the points you labelled as unrealistic as unrealistic as you, as such i am still confident they will be considered by blizz in the same way as the rest of the thread. Yes even i admit that some of them are quite unrealistic, but since they have zero impact on endgame i will mention them anyway because i believe they will benefit the bracket.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

You have to stop with the removal of CC abilities. Gouge is fine, kick is fine, cs is fine. These are core abilities that adds to the skillcap. We don't WANT to be auto attacking or spamming spells into each other. If skirmishes are brought back, I'd rather see someone win on a gouge into fear and sap followed by poly, rather than lol500ambush300sinister strike or owait im rooted gonna trinket, jk rooted again.

I wasn't implictly suggesting it be removed, i was merely pointing out flaws in grabco's suggestion and possible ways around it. I would much rather see a higher skill cap given the choice.

 

[Severe]

1- ferals will not have 100% uptime with the powershift nerf in 4.0.6

3- Yes 3 charges may be too high and its something im considering

10- changing this will have no effect on other mage specs and its a simple enough change to attempt to make an unattractive spec attractive

13- I could run rings around rets when they had HoF even without dispells. 6seconds snare immunity is not as game breaking as you make out, especially in a bracket with more survivability. Each healer has a tool to deal with it in the form of team mates, HoJ, travelform, ghostwolf and psychic scream and rets need some tools to go tete a tete with other dps classes.

23- This was infact my own thought, but changing the mana cost at low levels is unprecidented (other than from 10-20 on ALL spells) so i am reluctant to suggest changes to the mana cost in respect to the increased mana in 4.0.6. As such healing done needs to be increased to compensate, but maybe a 1:1 ratio is too high.

27- a root, fear, stun, disorientate, powershift, blink, sprint etc will shake off the shaman, the shammy then needs to regain that distance and ghostwolf has a cast time. Keep in mind that FS has a 25 yard range, not as far as other offensive spells such as conc shot, fear, frostbolt etc

13 - you does not mean every class. you cannot think like this.

27 - again, you cannot think like this. Not every class has these abilities, not to mention shamans have wind shear which negates your fear and root as they're casted.

What will a warrior do? What will a rogue do, sprint is not enough at all when you're 50% slowed, you're running at 20% then.. even if you trinket it, it will be reapplied very fast. a "powershift" (what is the point of this word? you're shifting) is only for resto druids- a disorientate helps how? scatter shot for 4 sec? yeah, easy to get away with a 50% slow in 4 seconds. Not to mention the sham can trinket all of these. Sorry but this one isn't thought through

 

[Kore nametooshort]

13 - you does not mean every class. you cannot think like this.

27 - again, you cannot think like this. Not every class has these abilities, not to mention shamans have wind shear which negates your fear and root as they're casted.

What will a warrior do? What will a rogue do, sprint is not enough at all when you're 50% slowed, you're running at 20% then.. even if you trinket it, it will be reapplied very fast. a "powershift" (what is the point of this word? you're shifting) - a disorientate helps how? scatter shot for 3 sec? ye, easy to get away with a 50% slow in 3 seconds. Not to mention the sham can trinket all of these. Sorry but this one isn't thought through

13- My point is that HoF without dispels is still very much counterable in a group scenario whilst giving paladins more ToT and the viablity they need.

27- Windshear is both easily faked and easily eaten. Keep in mind that frostshock is very much similar to hamstring. It is constantly applied and once removed it is easily reapplied. People do not find much difficulty with hamstring as it is an integral part of warrior pvp. The difference is that frostshock is ranged and that shaman do not have intercpet. They have to stop, cast, regain distance and then reapply is. Once in GW they cannot reapply it without wasting time on recasting ghostwolf. A warrior or rogue can go head to head with the shaman or intercept/step to a different enemy or simply be aided by a team mate. Without frostshock all shaman are gimped and i can think of no other solution.

 

[augiddin]

sap and poly are not on the same DR. and i said a fear inbetween gouge and sap, which means dr is refreshed for the sap. why do you think rmp has such great synergy? But yeah, even when cc is on the same DR you get a few seconds of cc, any top player does it.

sap and poly ARE on dr don't bother denying it i play a rogue that fear lasts 8 seconds gl at resetting a 20 second dr. ty for trying though.

 

[Severe]

27- Windshear is both easily faked and easily eaten. Keep in mind that frostshock is very much similar to hamstring. It is constantly applied and once removed it is easily reapplied. People do not find much difficulty with hamstring as it is an integral part of warrior pvp. The difference is that frostshock is ranged and that shaman do not have intercpet. They have to stop, cast, regain distance and then reapply is. Once in GW they cannot reapply it without wasting time on recasting ghostwolf. A warrior or rogue can go head to head with the shaman or intercept/step to a different enemy or simply be aided by a team mate. Without frostshock all shaman are gimped and i can think of no other solution.

So what if it is easily faked and easily eaten, you're still using a gcd when you're juking, which gives shaman more uptime on you. Which means you take damage while juking, do you not see that problem? You are extremely short-sighted right now. Hamstring means the warrior FIRST has to be on you, frost shock is ranged (25 yd which is quite a lot), not to mention it doesn't require rage, and it is instant like wind shear, which means the shaman will be coming at you while casting both. And your last part you're again coming with the circumstantial arguments of IF that and IF that. You can't think like that. Switch the tables and the shaman ISN'T alone, there's no way you're getting away when it can be reapplied every 6 sec from 25 yds range.

Without frost shock shamans are fine, enh is still a gimmick specc, and giving them frost shock will cause heavy imbalances. Again proving how buffing gimmick speccs ruins balance.

 

[augiddin]

13- My point is that HoF without dispels is still very much counterable in a group scenario whilst giving paladins more ToT and the viablity they need.

27- Windshear is both easily faked and easily eaten. Keep in mind that frostshock is very much similar to hamstring. It is constantly applied and once removed it is easily reapplied. People do not find much difficulty with hamstring as it is an integral part of warrior pvp. The difference is that frostshock is ranged and that shaman do not have intercpet. They have to stop, cast, regain distance and then reapply is. Once in GW they cannot reapply it without wasting time on recasting ghostwolf. A warrior or rogue can go head to head with the shaman or intercept/step to a different enemy or simply be aided by a team mate. Without frostshock all shaman are gimped and i can think of no other solution.

the difference is that you can't apply hamstring at range.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

So what if it is easily faked and easily eaten, you're still using a gcd when you're juking, which gives shaman more uptime on you. Which means you take damage while juking, do you not see that problem? You are extremely short-sighted right now. Hamstring means the warrior FIRST has to be on you, frost shock is ranged (25 yd which is quite a lot), not to mention it doesn't require rage, and it is instant like wind shear, which means the shaman will be coming at you while casting both. And your last part you're again coming with the circumstantial arguments of IF that and IF that. You can't think like that. Switch the tables and the shaman ISN'T alone, there's no way you're getting away when it can be reapplied every 6 sec from 25 yds range.

Without frost shock shamans are fine, enh is still a gimmick specc, and giving them frost shock will cause heavy imbalances. Again proving how buffing gimmick speccs ruins balance.

Yes it gives the shaman more uptime if eaten, but it is still counterable. Warriors have charge/intercept which means they can easily gain distance on you making up for the lack of range, both hamstring and frostshock have the same effect except warriors can use a CD to catch up quick whereas a shaman can keep you slowed at range. You asked what would be the 1v1 situation of rogues and wars, so i gave it to you. I wasn't basing my arguments off those particular situations.