How to balance 19's (final)

[Grabco]

You have to stop with the removal of CC abilities. Gouge is fine, kick is fine, cs is fine. These are core abilities that adds to the skillcap. We don't WANT to be auto attacking or spamming spells into each other. If skirmishes are brought back, I'd rather see someone win on a gouge into fear and sap followed by poly, rather than lol500ambush300sinister strike or owait im rooted gonna trinket, jk rooted again.

I like the idea of keeping key core abilities that add to the skill cap for the bracket, this could be a central concept for all low level pvp. A bracket with a good skill dynamic is better. I prefer the word dynamic used in conjunction with balance because you don't want to obtain ultimate balance do you?

 

[Kore nametooshort]

I like the idea of keeping key core abilities that add to the skill cap for the bracket, this could be a central concept for all low level pvp. A bracket with a good skill dynamic is better. I prefer the word dynamic used in conjunction with balance because you don't want to obtain ultimate balance do you?

indeed not Lets all go play runescpae!

 

[Tetrica]

It's been a long read to catch up on this argument, but it all comes down to how much each side feels is realistic to implement without having to put Blizzard through rigorous amounts of testing to balance an aspect of the game that is, twinking aside, nothing more than a minor stage in the gaming-experience.



Newcomers discover the game, granted, but as they work their way through the levels they will see the balance and dynamic of the game taking on a more static form when approaching the level-threshold of the vanilla-version of the game. This point can reasonably take everything between two days and a month. Additionally, sticking around at lower levels is hardly something that a newcomer aspires to do.



Experienced players hit 20 in only a few sessions of playing, and a fair few changes here will leave that unaffected.



I don't even have a rough estimate on how many players that will be affected by these changes over an extended period of time, but I have a feeling that it doesn't make it to five digits. Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate seeing the balance-issue taken up with Blizzard where you have the support of researched opinion, but I feel as if I have to point out that making these changes based on an extreme minority without reasonable amounts of testing (because I do doubt that Blizzard will devote themselves to this) and/or raw data beyond Recount-logs will in lead to tweaks for the masses, and we all know that as much as we wished that Blizzard as a company would want to support us, all they want to do is to leech from our bank-accounts.



The incentive is great, the trail of thought is good, but in the end it's nothing the majority of the current players will experience unless they make yet another alt-character.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

It's been a long read to catch up on this argument, but it all comes down to how much each side feels is realistic to implement without having to put Blizzard through rigorous amounts of testing to balance an aspect of the game that is, twinking aside, nothing more than a minor stage in the gaming-experience.



Newcomers discover the game, granted, but as they work their way through the levels they will see the balance and dynamic of the game taking on a more static form when approaching the level-threshold of the vanilla-version of the game. This point can reasonably take everything between two days and a month. Additionally, sticking around at lower levels is hardly something that a newcomer aspires to do.



Experienced players hit 20 in only a few sessions of playing, and a fair few changes here will leave that unaffected.



I don't even have a rough estimate on how many players that will be affected by these changes over an extended period of time, but I have a feeling that it doesn't make it to five digits. Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate seeing the balance-issue taken up with Blizzard where you have the support of researched opinion, but I feel as if I have to point out that making these changes based on an extreme minority without reasonable amounts of testing (because I do doubt that Blizzard will devote themselves to this) and/or raw data beyond Recount-logs will in lead to tweaks for the masses, and we all know that as much as we wished that Blizzard as a company would want to support us, all they want to do is to leech from our bank-accounts.



The incentive is great, the trail of thought is good, but in the end it's nothing the majority of the current players will experience unless they make yet another alt-character.

Actually blizzards latest poll indicates that about 6% of players enjoy low level exp off battlegrounds, which is more than expected. Granted this data isn't unflawed or complete but its a healthy estimate from our point of view.

If It's Red, It's Dead - Forums - World of Warcraft

 

[Grabco]

Actually blizzards latest poll indicates that about 6% of players enjoy low level exp off battlegrounds, which is more than expected. Granted this data isn't unflawed or complete but its a healthy estimate from our point of view.

If It's Red, It's Dead - Forums - World of Warcraft

The survey is flawed and is probably much greater than 6% but could you say that 6% of blizzards profit margin comes from twinks?

 

[Niini]

hey couldnt find it on the first page *didnt look very hard* can someone post the link to this on the wow forums?

 

[Kore nametooshort]

hey couldnt find it on the first page *didnt look very hard* can someone post the link to this on the wow forums?

I havent posted it on the wow forums yet. I'll be doing that when i am satisfied that everything suggestion is completely justified.



@shaman frost shock discussion.



I don't see frostshock be implicitly overpowered, however i agree that it has the potential to be overpowered. An elemental shaman with a reduced thuinderpunt CD with glyph doesn't really need it with EB totem. Replacing Frostshock with Frostbrand Weapon would be more acceptable, yes? Im still worried about resto survivability though. It doesnt have PTI or any instant panic button like the other healers have and without frost shock it will be difficult to maintain distance from their targets.

Edit: Maybe im being too cautious, they will have full access to Spark of Life - Spell - World of Warcraft and Ancestral Resolve - Spell - World of Warcraft

 

[Niini]

Shamans won't really try to heal over any damage that isnt coming from a DoT or a pet though.





at 19 tha tis

 

[Kore nametooshort]

Shamans won't really try to heal over any damage that isnt coming from a DoT or a pet though.





at 19 tha tis

How did you work that out?

 

[Kore nametooshort]

Druids don't need Typhoon, Nature's grasp and Roots, Pick one or two (do I sense class bias here?) How can you make druids the ULTIMATE FC by suggesting Natures grasp and a roof knock-off? starsurge is fine (might need a slight reduction in damage) it is on a really long cast.

I hope not, but as ink said we all have bias. I hadn't considered typhoon being a viable FC spec, but when you put it like that its definately worth taking into account. The problem without typhoon is that balance has little utility and all its casts are damn lengthy. Starsurge is ok, but its just a slighty stronger wrath on a cooldown, a bit boring no? An alternative solution to Balance that might satisfy FC, resto and feral is to keep the specialisations as they are, but reduce starsurge direct damage and possibly wrath and starfire too and introduce insect swarm in addition to grasp. This would make balance less reliant on its overly long casts while maintaining good damage and not giving it godly gap making abilities.

What are thoughts on this solution to balance druids. As grabco pointed out typhoon has the potential to be too much in conjunction with roots and grasp so it shouldn't be introduced. This change would move druids more away from direct damage and make them less reliant on long cast times. They will still have effective direct damage, but when forced to move they won't be at such a disadvantage. This is in addition to Nature's Grasp only have one charge. I like the idea of this change and in fact it moves balance druids more in the direct on how they have always been in this bracket.

 

[Karok]

Shamans won't really try to heal over any damage that isnt coming from a DoT or a pet though.





at 19 tha tis

You talking about how it is now? This is usually only because our only heal is so long and weak we would probably be dead before it landed, hence the proposed changes.

 

[Tetrica]

The survey is flawed and is probably much greater than 6% but could you say that 6% of blizzards profit margin comes from twinks?

The survey is also not influenced by sites like AJ by openly rallying players to vote for arenas.



Additionally, you should have written "twinkERS". If twinking became inbalanced, I'd just play endgame (or, as happened recently, having to re-organise my personal life to the extent of taking a break) meaning that I enjoy other aspects of the game too - and I'm not the only twink that does as is explained by Kore's introduction stating that there is an RBG-team of twinkers in the top20-region in the EU.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

The survey is also not influenced by sites like AJ by openly rallying players to vote for arenas.



Additionally, you should have written "twinkERS". If twinking became inbalanced, I'd just play endgame (or, as happened recently, having to re-organise my personal life to the extent of taking a break) meaning that I enjoy other aspects of the game too - and I'm not the only twink that does as is explained by Kore's introduction stating that there is an RBG-team of twinkers in the top20-region in the EU.

I would argue that this is a moot point. If we can convince blizz that we are numerous enough then they have to sit up and at least pay us a courtesy of a blue post or two.



edit: regardless it is off topic for this thread.

 

[Niini]

You talking about how it is now? This is usually only because our only heal is so long and weak we would probably be dead before it landed, hence the proposed changes.

even with bigger heals your going to drop a EB and get out of melee range before you start casting heals or LoS a hunter or caster when theyre beating on you



and shorter casts are not long enough to make the talent worth it

 

[Earthroots]

Hi niini

 

[Tetrica]

I support these changes, there are a few changes I like or dislike more than the general idea, but all in all it looks thoroughly researched.

However, I just don't see much more than a few blue posts happening, sadly enough. As previously mentioned, it's too large a change for it to be worth the time and effort on their part.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

I support these changes, there are a few changes I like or dislike more than the general idea, but all in all it looks thoroughly researched.

However, I just don't see much more than a few blue posts happening, sadly enough. As previously mentioned, it's too large a change for it to be worth the time and effort on their part.

Be that as it may, Im still going to post it.

Edit: Which specific changes do you disagree with?





Re: Balance druids.



If wrath and starfire both take a 20% nerf and starsurge takes a 30% nerf that will leave their dps at roughly the same as it is atm but more mobile and will reduce its somewhat strong burst. Typhoon is forgotten about and Ngras[ is only 1 charge. Does anyone see flaws in this other than perhaps nerfing direct damage too far?

 

[Niini]

For druids in general, maybe instead of taking away the ability to shift out of snares maybe make canceling a form trigger a gcd

 

[Kore nametooshort]

For druids in general, maybe instead of taking away the ability to shift out of roots maybe make canceling a form trigger a gcd

This would affect endgame and low game resto druids and so wouldnt be attractive for either blizzard or a resto druid. Powershifting in and out of form already triggers on GCD, making it trigger two and leaving the player out of form for 1GCD would somewhat damage the class. I fixed your quote btw.





Latest changes are:

- Exorcism base damage reduced by 50% (up from 30%)

- PW:S absorb increase increased by 15% (down from 30%). Mana cost is unchanged.

- All druid direct damage spells other than Moonfire have total damage decreased by 15%

- Druids now learn insect swarm at level 18

- Starsurge is once again the Balance druid specialisation

- Nature's Grasp will only have 1 charge

- Shaman will no longer learn Frost Shock, they will learn Frostbrand Weapon instead

 

[Tetrica]

Be that as it may, Im still going to post it.

Edit: Which specific changes do you disagree with?

21. Increase the health of all hunter pets by 20% below level 40

- This will impact 39s, from where I have most experience. This will imbalance Hunters in this bracket even more, which is insane as they are as good at 39 as at 19.

27. Hand of Freedom is now learned at level 8

- This will also impact 39s, where Ret Paladins burst is so great a clothie can take 2-3 swings from a Retadin and die. The gain in mobility is nice, but will imbalance the game at a later point.



Additionally, I'm not sure where all the re-scaling should balance out to the values of today, but anything after level 24 will affect another bracket, and 29 will affect two. Do you see what I'm pointing at? What's good for 19 might be hurtful for others.



That being said, you seem so eager to not touch end-game experience that changing another bracket might be something worth looking out for.