How to balance 19's (final)

[Karmaz]

Counterspell is off the GCD. You also imply that it isnt school lock out, the lockout of CS is school lockout. The silence obviously isnt.



Ofcourse they arent the same spell, but the point llare was trying to make was that Imp CS is better than kick due to the duration, silence and its range and in the hands of FOTM there could quite easily be too many CS's flying around.

CS IS on the GCD.



The advantages of Kick can outweigh those of CS, yes the blanket is nice but it has a 240% LONGER CD then kick and with most rogues rolling Sub ShSKick isn't hard, nor is a focus kick. There is also an advantage of kick whereas with it being up over 2 times as often as CS there is the pressure aspect whereas someone can spend a few seconds trying to fake making them fall behind on heals then when they actually go for the heal/other spell then it becomes quite risky. You should try out PvP in many brackets, might give you a better understanding of the core aspects of PvP



Its a bit late and I didn't put the School lockout on CS meant to copy and paste but didn't end up doing it, that was my bad

 

[Llare]

CS IS on the GCD.



The advantages of Kick can outweigh those of CS, yes the blanket is nice but it has a 240% LONGER CD then kick and with most rogues rolling Sub ShSKick isn't hard, nor is a focus kick macro. There is also an advantage of kick whereas with it being up over 2 times as often as CS there is the pressure aspect whereas someone can spend a few seconds trying to fake making them fall behind on heals then when they actually go for the heal/other spell then it becomes quite risky. You should try out PvP in many brackets, might give you a better understanding of the core aspects of PvP



Its a bit late and I didn't put the School lockout on CS meant to copy and paste but didn't end up doing it, that was my bad

Here is an analogy to describe what I got out of your comment:



The subject is..... Sand Castles



Karmaz says "But Ham sammiches are to0 have mayo AND Mustard"

Talking about the general population of Rogue players. They cannot land a Kick, because they cannot time it or they fall for fake casts way too easily. Some even just derp don't use it.



Now imagine if the general population of Rogue players (fucking huge amount) all roll Arcane Mages with Imp CS. They do not need to time it, they can't be fakecasted. Just sit back and imagine it from a casters point of view.



The 6, varying from awful to some decent, Rogues in your BG transform to Arcane Mages. Imagine the bracket.



Imp CS is too easy to use, requires no thought or control or timing.



This is about the 15-19 Bracket. Please, don't mention others.

 

[Grabco]

Time on target and burst damage are reciprocally related. That is, ToT goes down burst should go up, burst goes down time on target should go up. Isn't reducing the paladins burst and giving hand of freedom the same thing as keeping the burst and removing HOF? also hand of freedom can be purged so it would need to be unpurgable. It is already incredibly hard to get a 3 stack holy power up on a target. If you are nerfing the ret paladin burst damage be sure you increase the time on target and also make it easier to keep a 3 stack Holy power up.



Templars verdict was already nerfed by alot iirc. I used to hit for 1700-1900 now it's like 1100-1300 crit with sader, how often do you have a crusader+3 stack holy power up?

 

[Llare]

Time on target and burst damage are reciprocally related. That is, ToT goes down burst should go up, burst goes down time on target should go up. Isn't reducing the paladins burst and giving hand of freedom the same thing as keeping the burst and removing HOF? also hand of freedom can be purged so it would need to be unpurgable. It is already incredibly hard to get a 3 stack holy power up on a target. If you are nerfing the ret paladin burst damage be sure you increase the time on target and also make it easier to keep a 3 stack Holy power up.



Templars verdict was already nerfed by alot iirc. I used to hit for 1700-1900 now it's like 1100-1300 crit with sader, how often do you have a crusader+3 stack holy power up?

That said, would you rather have a decent damage dealing output spec with ToT or a gimmicky Burst spec that has trouble getting to it's target? Despite what you said, what Rets need is a way of making their damage more sustainable. Nothing should be able to hit 1.1-1.3k even with the effort that 3stack+Crusader gives. Not sure I'd agree with HoF needing to be unpurgable, that sounds a bit bias.



If we get HoF, and burst is nerfed some more, I would agree that an extra way of gaining Holy Charges would be justified greatly. They need to be a constant damage output, with ToT. Is what the bracket needs more of.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

Time on target and burst damage are reciprocally related. That is, ToT goes down burst should go up, burst goes down time on target should go up. Isn't reducing the paladins burst and giving hand of freedom the same thing as keeping the burst and removing HOF? also hand of freedom can be purged so it would need to be unpurgable. It is already incredibly hard to get a 3 stack holy power up on a target. If you are nerfing the ret paladin burst damage be sure you increase the time on target and also make it easier to keep a 3 stack Holy power up.

Indeed this is true, that was my rationale behind reducing their burst. HoF wouldnt need to be purge resistant since I am petitioning to remove it from the bracket as well. Increasing the time it takes for HP to fall off might be a good idea aswell, worth considering. Can you think of any other way of buffing paladin mobility within the constraints of the project? (ie. not affect endgame) I can't think of any practical ones. The only other wayi can think of buffing rets is to make the self cleansing part of Acts of Sacrifice - Spell - World of Warcraft part of the ret mastery and give cleanse to paladins (it isnt a defensive magic dispel btw, just poison and disease)

 

[Evade]

CS is off gcd. fyi. and fotm mages are something that we don't need to worry about.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

Poll added.

 

[Squadbroken]

I don't necessarily like ALL of the changes, but I know where you're coming from and would rather see it balanced than not.



I hope this goes through somehow, and Blizzard at least feels like caring a little bit.

 

[Severe]

why make a poll that says all or nothing, instead of tweaking your changes so it actually creates balance and doesn't ruin certain classes, making them unplayable and boring, as well as lowering the overall skillcap?

 

[Squadbroken]

why make a poll that says all or nothing, instead of tweaking your changes so it actually creates balance and doesn't ruin certain classes, making them unplayable and boring, as well as lowering the overall skillcap?

Because all of the changes affect every class. You just don't want to see your class being as balanced as every other class.



Be objective please, and think of the bracket and not your ability to get kills without whatever overpowered "tactics" you currently use.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

why make a poll that says all or nothing, instead of tweaking your changes so it actually creates balance and doesn't ruin certain classes, making them unplayable and boring, as well as lowering the overall skillcap?

That is what this thread is for, discussing how to improve the suggestions. I have tweaked various suggestions due to comments people have made in this thread.

 

[chíll]

i agree, the blanket silence on counterspell is somewhat easy to use, but i would say that kick is almost easier.. since, as a rogue, you don't have to consider pro's and con's when considering if you have to kick say, a smite.. the cooldown on kick is so low, that you can essentially spam it on any caster whenever its up, and hey, in between cooldowns? no problem, thats what gouge is there for..

 

[Evade]

i agree, the blanket silence on counterspell is somewhat easy to use, but i would say that kick is almost easier.. since, as a rogue, you don't have to consider pro's and con's when considering if you have to kick say, a smite.. the cooldown on kick is so low, that you can essentially spam it on any caster whenever its up, and hey, in between cooldowns? no problem, thats what gouge is there for..

that is the dumbest thing i have ever heard.

 

[chíll]

other than the fact that, this is not true, would you mind telling me WHY? instead of just proving your ignorance..

 

[augiddin]

i think your removing to many skills which blizzard is never going to do instead of just trying to tone them down which would bring balance and at the same time not make the skill cap disappear.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

i think your removing to many skills which blizzard is never going to do instead of just trying to tone them down which would bring balance and at the same time not make the skill cap disappear.

More skills does not necessarily correlate to a higher skill cap. If we take an extreme example of say timewarp/bloodlust its quite obvious to any observer that this would not increase the skill cap of the mage/shaman, it would just give the player a button to dramatically increase his output briefly making him overpowered for that period. This would not increase the "skill cap" of the class it merely buffs its damage output in a way that requires no skill to speak of at all. I believe that this principal applies to other abilities at 19. A hunter has two near spamable snares, a disorientate, disengage, pet stun and either incredible mobile damage or simply high damage + stun does not mean that it has a high skill cap, it means it has so many abilities that skill is in fact less of an issue and hunters are the only class losing more skills than they gain. I don't know if you are refering to a specific example, but if you are i will be happy to try and justify it further.

 

[Clickplease]

Kore, Bravo!



I didn't finish it, cause class is ending - but looks like you really busted your balls on it, and I thank you. For someone to take that kind of time to attempt to improve the game for others is incredibly selfless, and should be commended. That goes for all of the admins on twinkinfo.com - Thank you for taking the time to stick up for us. If it were not for twinking, most of us would leave the game.





I just pray the right eyes view it.



*edit: If the 19s get balanced, I believe it will encourage twinking at all level brackets - just a theory.

 

[augiddin]

More skills does not necessarily correlate to a higher skill cap. If we take an extreme example of say timewarp/bloodlust its quite obvious to any observer that this would not increase the skill cap of the mage/shaman, it would just give the player a button to dramatically increase his output briefly making him overpowered for that period. This would not increase the "skill cap" of the class it merely buffs its damage output in a way that requires no skill to speak of at all. I believe that this principal applies to other abilities at 19. A hunter has two near spamable snares, a disorientate, disengage, pet stun and either incredible mobile damage or simply high damage + stun does not mean that it has a high skill cap, it means it has so many abilities that skill is in fact less of an issue and hunters are the only class losing more skills than they gain. I don't know if you are refering to a specific example, but if you are i will be happy to try and justify it further.

your example is irrelevant their are no LOLDAMAGEINCREASE spells in the bracket, also i think you need to rethink some of the mobility changes because you seem to be doing a double jeopardy here my removing snares and increasing class mobility you will be making melee op. Also no reliable dispels makes hand of freedom probably the most unbalanced no skill ability in the bracket if your changes go through.(not talking 1v1 here)

 

[Kore nametooshort]

your example is irrelevant their are no LOLDAMAGEINCREASE spells in the bracket, also i think you need to rethink some of the mobility changes because you seem to be doing a double jeopardy here my removing snares and increasing class mobility you will be making melee op. Also no reliable dispels makes hand of freedom probably the most unbalanced no skill ability in the bracket if your changes go through.(not talking 1v1 here)

The timewarp exapmle was just to show that more button=/=raised skill cap. That is why i gave the hunter example as well. No other class is losing more abilities than they gain. I don't see HoF being OP, it is in exactly the same shape as it was when it left the bracket. It was not OP then, even without a purge or dispeller, and there is no other effective way of boosting paladins' awful mobility.

I have kept in mind every other mobility change when designing these suggestions, thus i feel like i have not buffed any classes too far in respect to other classes nerfs as you fear. That said, if you do see a specific example of this then please point it out and discuss it.

 

[Grabco]

Indeed this is true, that was my rationale behind reducing their burst. HoF wouldnt need to be purge resistant since I am petitioning to remove it from the bracket as well. Increasing the time it takes for HP to fall off might be a good idea aswell, worth considering. Can you think of any other way of buffing paladin mobility within the constraints of the project? (ie. not affect endgame) I can't think of any practical ones. The only other wayi can think of buffing rets is to make the self cleansing part of Acts of Sacrifice - Spell - World of Warcraft part of the ret mastery and give cleanse to paladins (it isnt a defensive magic dispel btw, just poison and disease)

To answer your question you can't do much to help paladins mobility so their burst would need to be able to compensate.



Now that I think about it hand of freedom + the 6 second hammer of justice would be a lot of time on target so another way to balance paladins might be to give back a little bit of damage to the abilities like exo and templars but reduce the duration of Hammer of justice to like 3-4 seconds. That's the main reasons paladins are annoying hammer + exo is just stupid.