Weapon Effects and Theorycrafting

[Warglave]

The only reason I even tried is because I'm super cool and it just magically dropped for me.

Awesome! That's cool info, i never tried cuz i'm not super cool with magical drops...

I dont know if i agree they're better than https://www.wowhead.com/item=30534/wyrmscale-greaves?bonus=6710 but it's awesome info anyway!
(not much to argue on that point, a 22 agi proc isnt worth giving up the passives/sockets, IMO, but i'll check it out )

edit- i had all the other pieces on 2 hunters, might grind the pants for a bit cuz hillsbrad sucks.

 

[JadeFire]

Awesome! That's cool info, i never tried cuz i'm not super cool with magical drops...

I dont know if i agree they're better than https://www.wowhead.com/item=30534/wyrmscale-greaves?bonus=6710 but it's awesome info anyway!
(not much to argue on that point, a 22 agi proc isnt worth giving up the passives/sockets, IMO, but i'll check it out )

I hate procs, but The +22 agility proc being up more than twice a minute at least is just better than Wyrmscale for DPS. If you are going to go for some super tank build with Talasites then I would say Wyrmscale is better... but the problem with doing that is there is no CRUSADER for Agility so your DPS will be d o g s h i t.

The pants can also drop off of the Talon King in normal, that is where I got mine.

 

[Warglave]

The +22 agility proc being up more than twice a minute

Ok... but you can toss in 3 agi gems and get 9 passive all the time. That's a hard sell. Not to mention other gemming.

edit- plus the 1 AP socket bonus. I cant tell what the deso pants stats actually are at 20, all i can look at is the heroic.

(still gonna get em, cant be worse than hillsbrad grind so far on my one)

 

[DeLindsay]

Chest is from Escape from Dumbhold.

That's my new favorite term for that shithole

Ok... but you can toss in 3 agi gems and get 9 passive all the time. That's a hard sell. Not to mention other gemming.

edit- plus the 1 AP socket bonus. I cant tell what the deso pants stats actually are at 20, all i can look at is the heroic.

(still gonna get em, cant be worse than hillsbrad grind so far on my one)

9 Agi perma vs 22 Agi with up time of 30s out of every 60s. As far as I know, this is how you figure out the math of which is stronger. Over the course of 1 minute (60 seconds) 9 Agi is worth 9*60 = 540. For the 4-Set, 22 Agi is worth 22*30 = 660. Yes, it means you have half a minute of "normal" DPS that isn't boosted by 9 Agi but the 30s of uptime means it's overall more valuable.

EDIT: For consistent, very short fights the +9 Agi is more valuable.

 

[JadeFire]

That's my new favorite term for that shithole
9 Agi perma vs 22 Agi with up time of 30s out of every 60s. As far as I know, this is how you figure out the math of which is stronger. Over the course of 1 minute (60 seconds) 9 Agi is worth 9*60 = 540. For the 4-Set, 22 Agi is worth 22*30 = 660. Yes, it means you have half a minute of "normal" DPS that isn't boosted by 9 Agi but the 30s of uptime means it's overall more valuable.

EDIT: For consistent, very short fights the +9 Agi is more valuable.

Well its actually only +6 agility, i don't know why anybody would slot 3x +3s instead of +2+2. At the end of the day, I doubt there really is BiS for enhance since you can build it 10 different ways (I was even looking at trying a non-melee full elemental nuke build for fun since Flame shock hits so hard with enhance versus elemental or resto and bolt does like 500 on crits, not to mention elemental blast can do 1000), but the Desolation Gear is really good regardless (to me it also has bit of that "twink clout" since its hard-er-ish to get).

 

[xanx]

Since we are talking about procs (some related below):

I'm still fleshing out my Enhancement Shaman. But, Desolation Gear 4 piece has to be BiS or VERY CLOSE.

With the 2 piece buff you can basically look at the pants as having +19 critical strike and +10 haste... even with out gem slots that is pretty nuts.

You lose 3 gem slots on the pants, but the Heroic Resolution buff +22 agility is up a solid 2 times per minute so +22 agility basically 30 seconds out of 60 seconds (if doomplate is similar there is no way that set is not BiS). IT ONLY TRIGGERS ON Melee attacks... Auto/Stormstrike/Lavalash/Windfury/Flametounge can all proc it, or any extra attacks.

For the record: I ran Escape from Dump-hold 40ish times to get chest to drop... I boosted myself though Shattered Halls for the Gloves 22 times... the best luck I had is that the pants dropped from Skettis Halls on my first run... apparently that is the worst grind... so props to me for being awesome.

***

I am still working on what weapons to use.

There seems to be 4 avenues you can go. If I had i49, they are BiS... please don't argue against it, any of that dumb shit is over with, they are BiS for any class.

But I don't so:

Haste Proc: Bladefist and Blackout... the procs are really low. Black out 2ISH per minute, Bladefist is once per minute ISH, just does not seem worth it to me. Elemental force enchants.

Extra attack Proc: Ironfoe and Flurry Axe with the Extra attack Trinket... this looks better to me than haste, I'll probably use this on and off. Elemental force enchants. Again tho, i don't like the proc frequency... this just seems to me to be more of a raidboss setup where I'm going full ham for long damage.

The one I think I like the most is Mok Headcracker mainhand with +4 weapon damage and Claw of the watcher off hand with +6 agility (you could use Blackout here for the proc, but I'm just stacking crit for big boy hits). Mok Headcracker mainhand gives you a 50 point damage boost to almost every ability (including Elemental Bast, LB, FS, and FlmS) because of the slow weapon speed... plus it takes the WF/FT proc damage up by 5-10 on each attack... that is huge. I also like this because Elemental Blast can crit for 900-1000.

Cudgel of Naralax off hand DECREASES your damage (on ALL abilities) if you use it instead of the Claw. So I can only conclude that a slow speed weapon only matters MAIN HAND... not off hand, at least at 20.

Interesting... I haven’t tested the difference the weapon speed made for elemental blast, though I did notice the increase in white damage.

I can agree that blackout’s proc rate is garbage though.

this may make crit builds a bit more fun..

 

[JadeFire]

Interesting... I haven’t tested the difference the weapon speed made for elemental blast, though I did notice the increase in white damage.

I can agree that blackout’s proc rate is garbage though.

this may make crit builds a bit more fun..

Just standing in orgimar... if i have main hand Headcracker (with +4 weapon damage) and off hand Claw (+6 agility)... my elemental tooltip says 410

If I do nothing else but swap those weapons to Claw main hand my tool tip goes down to 360.

To me that is a HUGE drop in dps... the 3.60 weapon MAINHAND speed is real.

 

[Warglave]

i don't know why anybody would slot 3x +3s instead of +2+2.

The same reason anybody would choose a 22 agi proc sometimes over 3x 2/2... for the most AGI. Exactly what you did. One is passive with bonus stats and one is a proc which may/may not be available when you need it.

Figuring a 50% uptime, you're only getting 11 "passive" agility. With 3 agi gems you're getting 9 passive agility... plus some vers plus 1 ap socket bonus. All the time. Every attack... not hopefully half of them or proccing on your last one.

I get what you're saying about AGI crusader, but at BEST you only get 13 more agi out of the set bonus. That's not it.

That's 50% of the time you'll have 13 more than 9 all the time - and half the time you'll have 9 less. It's not "22" more.
(basically saying that half the time, you "un-crusader" yourself cuz the proc isnt up. Almost as much is LOST when down)

Plus the 4 vers. Plus 1 ap. I dont know they exact haste/crit on your pants but it looks like good haste, that's a factor too.

(to me it also has bit of that "twink clout" since its hard-er-ish to get).

edit-

EDIT: For consistent, very short fights the +9 Agi is more valuable.

For every single fight it DOESNT proc, 9 agi is more valuable. The task is to decide how often/important that will be.

and again, the only reason i'm even saying 9 agi is cuz the set doesnt proc agi/stam... it's just AGI. I wouldnt use 3x 3 either, it's just comparison to what the set proc has to offer. I'll be using 2/2 gems in most DPS sockets, cuz I prefer that.

 

[toskosa]

I can see 4 set being decent for doing pve stuff but for pvp which is super bursty atm I would rather have the triple socket pants.

 

[Warglave]

I just wanna get em cuz i cant get the other ones.

edit- short version is, it's hard to say "13 agi is a lot when it's up" then turn around and say "9 agi isnt much when it's not"
(plus 1 ap, plus 4 vers on the sockets)

 

[Warglave]

What?

The set pants I'll go after cuz the hillsbrad farm sucks for the socket pants.

(i'm also farming for hunter, which changes that aspect, but "arguing" for enh shaman should i make one)

edit- i'd think hunter would proc less, so that'd even go farther away from teh set for me, but my perspective here is enh.

 

[JadeFire]

I think the gear is pretty insignificant. I was just going for max crit/burst so the Desolation was a no-brainer. If you were doing something else it might not be BiS. but, as I said before we are dealing with very small amounts of damage here versus doing something like NOT using Headcracker or etc.

But, I've seen people do 100k with enhance using multi-attack builds with elemental force, so it just comes down to who is in your BG and what BG it is really. If there are tricked out arms warriors running around with i49s and you are gonna try to stormstrike your way to victory you are in for a sad day.

 

[Warglave]

Yeah, I'm just trying to illustrate the decision. Yes, there are windows when deso set will give you the most burst.

But to make a comparison, I'd have to think hard about giving up +40 str to weapon (if it existed) to take crusader....

edit muahhahahh first run.

 

[xanx]

Just standing in orgimar... if i have main hand Headcracker (with +4 weapon damage) and off hand Claw (+6 agility)... my elemental tooltip says 410

If I do nothing else but swap those weapons to Claw main hand my tool tip goes down to 360.

To me that is a HUGE drop in dps... the 3.60 weapon MAINHAND speed is real.

How much mastery are you rocking if you don't mind me asking?

 

[mirrorbender]

Just standing in orgimar... if i have main hand Headcracker (with +4 weapon damage) and off hand Claw (+6 agility)... my elemental tooltip says 410

If I do nothing else but swap those weapons to Claw main hand my tool tip goes down to 360.

To me that is a HUGE drop in dps... the 3.60 weapon MAINHAND speed is real.

I would guess that's actually due to moving the weapon damage enchant to your off hand, rather than the difference in attack speed. Ability damage should be normalized for attack speed. In fact, there's a strong likelihood that if you put the weapon damage enchant on a faster MH weapon, it would be even better because the same +damage times faster attack speed = more WDPS.

 

[toskosa]

I would guess that's actually due to moving the weapon damage enchant to your off hand, rather than the difference in attack speed. Ability damage should be normalized for attack speed. In fact, there's a strong likelihood that if you put the weapon damage enchant on a faster MH weapon, it would be even better because the same +damage times faster attack speed = more WDPS.

I cant remember the exact formula atm but weapon damage is calculated into a move overalll damage, since moks is slower it has a higher white damage.Ill see if I cna find the formula for ability damage later.

 

[DeLindsay]

If one were interested in testing Crusader + Weapon Damage on dual wield, would Crusader be placed on OH? Right now my 15 Fury is trying out Crusader (MH) + Lightless Force (OH) and I quite like it. My only concern is that I don't really need added AOE damage and Lightless Force has never been more than ~8% of my total damage at 15, and is as low as ~2%. Obviously I'd never drop Crusader, but what are folks thoughts in pairing it with a Weapon Damage Enchant, and which kind?

 

[mirrorbender]

I cant remember the exact formula atm but weapon damage is calculated into a move overalll damage, since moks is slower it has a higher white damage.Ill see if I cna find the formula for ability damage later.

This is my reference. The weapon damage should be divided by the weapon speed, so that abilities scale with weapon DPS. But it's always possible that the formula is wrong or that theres something wonky if the weapon has a non standard speed.

If one were interested in testing Crusader + Weapon Damage on dual wield, would Crusader be placed on OH? Right now my 15 Fury is trying out Crusader (MH) + Lightless Force (OH) and I quite like it. My only concern is that I don't really need added AOE damage and Lightless Force has never been more than ~8% of my total damage at 15, and is as low as ~2%. Obviously I'd never drop Crusader, but what are folks thoughts in pairing it with a Weapon Damage Enchant, and which kind?

Yes, Weapon Damage on MH hand Crusader would go on OH if you wanted one of each

 

[JadeFire]

+4 damage main hand on anything other than mok does far less. It 100% has something to do with 3.6 weapon speed and +4 weapon enchant on the main hand.

I just have the 3 sets, I probably won't farm anymore. 100% mastery for Elemental/Resto so you have overload 100% of the time. Desolation gear for Melee Enhance and a stupid as fuck 200agility build for Spell Enhancement.

 

[mirrorbender]

+4 damage main hand on anything other than mok does far less. It 100% has something to do with 3.6 weapon speed and +4 weapon enchant on the main hand.

I just have the 3 sets, I probably won't farm anymore. 100% mastery for Elemental/Resto so you have overload 100% of the time. Desolation gear for Melee Enhance and a stupid as fuck 200agility build for Spell Enhancement.

Wow, I'm surprised. Making sense of these weapon damage enchants is a real pain. Which enchant are you using specifically?