How to balance 19's (final)

[Severe]

How often do you ever touch evocate atm?

Every single WSG. But I don't think you get it, mana shield is COMPLETELY useless outside of duels. It will be off in one single hit from any class, and reapplying it 3 times means you're oom. Great! Lets trade our ONLY defence against casters for that!



Your bias + ignoring of arguments is becoming extremely annoying.

In favour of the changes:

- Counterspell locks out the target for too long and the blanket silence makes it impossible to fake

Welcome to PvP, where thought, anticipation and SKILL is needed. Instead of you standing there spamming your heals on a 2000 hp FC, you now actually have to watch out for the mage. When you're spamming starsurge, wrath and moonfires into that squishy mage, you can actually be stopped.

- Counterspell is too gamebreaking in every situation where it is used.

No, it is not. Name one situation where it is gamebreaking, I haven't heard one yet. This argument you pulled out of your arse. "lol when 3 ppl are on fc he should be able to heal instead of getting silenced for 8 sec cus he bad and cant fake, he shud outheal 3 players wtf"

- Arcane mages have a larger net amount of utility and this over shadows frosts control, meaning that players are more or less pigeon holed into arcane

This was NEVER established, someone who doesn't play mages said this. I'm currently playing frost and it's extremely effective. No one is pigeonholed into playing arcane. Again you brought up an argument that was never proven true.

- There are no defensive dispells to counter frost mages

What does this have to do with removing CS? Again, learn to juke. CS adds a higher skillcap to this bracket, why are you so dead-intent on removing it. IF dispels were back in this bracket, mages would be useless, due to gapclosers like shs.

Against the changes:

- The pure control of frost in many situations makes it a viable alternative to arcane

This does not compute with your earlier point of saying arcane completely overshadows frost. Good job.

- Keeping counterspell is fine because you can fake cast it and trinkets will fix this for arcane

Yes. This one outweighs all your made-up "cons".

- Mages are too squishy without CoC

Mages are too squishy even WITH CoC. Now remove CS and any caster will lolderp on a mage like a hunter.

- It is a mages heritage to be very effective against melee, removing it would completely changes the role of the mage

Sure, whatever, without the cc a mage has they're useless - so it's not just about "heritage" it's about actually being a viable class.

- The addition of buffs to other classes mobility will mean that mages will need CoC to compete

Idk where this argument comes from. Mages being squishy and easily 3 shotted, and classes like sub rogues being mobile simply means mages needs every snare/cc to have a chance.



So in short you're extremely biased and made your own pros and cons list which is aimed to make your own case stronger so you can go back to the old days and never care about what a mage might do to you, because he won't even get a chance to poly before he's dead, much less having to juke heals against mages.

 

[Llare]

i cannot honestly BELIEVE this, are you actually saying that arcane has as much CC as frost? ? excuse me, ladies and gentlemen, while i go shoot my brains out.. this is just too unbearable. mages are fine, warriors are not. its warriors who need a gap closer, not mages that needs theirs removed. EVERYTHING else in this bracket, comes down to sheer noob-ness. rogues has shadowstep, and better damage. paladins has hammer of stun and better damage. also, they have selfhealing, but thats beside the point.

Rogues aren't a problem, and should never be a problem for mages.



If you're an Arcane Mage you have Imp CS, fuck 1v1s, it allows you and you team to shit all over any Paladin regardless of spec.



Of course not more. But when a DPS Spec is both Anti Caster and Anti Melee, with an Escape Mech, you can't tell me it's not ridiculous. Frost, in PuGs, isn't worth dropping Imp CS.



Just sit back and imagine Arcane Mage FotM, dear god.

Every single WSG. But I don't think you get it, mana shield is COMPLETELY useless outside of duels. It will be off in one single hit from any class, and reapplying it 3 times means you're oom. Great! Lets trade our ONLY defence against casters for that!



Your bias + ignoring of arguments is becoming extremely annoying.







Welcome to PvP, where thought, anticipation and SKILL is needed. Instead of you standing there spamming your heals on a 2000 hp FC, you now actually have to watch out for the mage. When you're spamming starsurge, wrath and moonfires into that squishy mage, you can actually be stopped.





No, it is not. Name one situation where it is gamebreaking, I haven't heard one yet. This argument you pulled out of your arse. "lol when 3 ppl are on fc he should be able to heal instead of getting silenced for 8 sec cus he bad and cant fake, he shud outheal 3 players wtf"





This was NEVER established, someone who doesn't play mages said this. I'm currently playing frost and it's extremely effective. No one is pigeonholed into playing arcane. Again you brought up an argument that was never proven true.





What does this have to do with removing CS? Again, learn to juke. CS adds a higher skillcap to this bracket, why are you so dead-intent on removing it. IF dispels were back in this bracket, mages would be useless, due to gapclosers like shs.



This does not compute with your earlier point of saying arcane completely overshadows frost. Good job.



Yes. This one outweighs all your made-up "cons".



Mages are too squishy even WITH CoC. Now remove CS and any caster will lolderp on a mage like a hunter.



Sure, whatever, without the cc a mage has they're useless - so it's not just about "heritage" it's about actually being a viable class.



Idk where this argument comes from. Mages being squishy and easily 3 shotted, and classes like sub rogues being mobile simply means mages needs every snare/cc to have a chance.



So in short you're extremely biased and made your own pros and cons list which is aimed to make your own case stronger so you can go back to the old days and never care about what a mage might do to you, because he won't even get a chance to poly before he's dead, much less having to juke heals against mages.

Be quiet. Imp CS is beyond game breaking. You jump into a fight, Imp CS and it sways the fight ENTIRELY in your favour. Normal CS is not a problem AT ALL, no.



But when you have the option to derp into a 3v4 or whatever you'll have, lockout the healer for 8 Seconds? It's obvious which side wins in a Battleground Environment.



I said most of the things you refer you, not Kore.



Arcane Mages would still be fine with Barrage/Missiles/Blink/Imp CS/other. You have Blink for gods sake. More than any Warlock could ever ask for. Arcane should be a derp Glasscannon spec with little to no AoE CC. Obviously you can't take everything away from them, but removing CoC is a start.

 

[Severe]

Rogues aren't a problem, and should never be a problem for mages.

But they are. When a class takes 50% of your hp in an ambush, it is a problem. If they trinket your nova+blink and shs on you, you're basically dead as arcane.

If you're an Arcane Mage you have Imp CS, fuck 1v1s, it allows you and you team to shit all over any Paladin regardless of spec.

If you have enough people to take down a nonhealing pala in the 4 seconds a blanket cs lasts, then yes, the paladin would and SHOULD be shit on, be because ITS FUCKING 4v1. The reason you came up with this argument is that paladins are used to outhealing 3-4 players solo, which is not something that should happen. If your point is that a 8 second lockout is too much, learn to juke.

Of course not more. But when a DPS Spec is both Anti Caster and Anti Melee, with an Escape Mech, you can't tell me it's not ridiculous. Frost, in PuGs, isn't worth dropping Imp CS.

How is arcane anti melee? Frost is to a degree, but melees have no problem dropping arcane mages by using cd's correctly.

Just sit back and imagine Arcane Mage FotM, dear god.

Just sit back and enjoy holy and prot paladin FotM, hunter FotM, Rogue ShS FotM, dear god.

 

[Karmaz]

Frost, in PuGs, isn't worth dropping Imp CS.

How does a Blanket Silence over shroud a Talent tree giving a HUGE amount of CC?



Its not hard to Hard CS someone.



Also can do extremely well in PuGs and Premades.



Edit:heheh

 

[Severe]

Be quiet. Imp CS is beyond game breaking. You jump into a fight, Imp CS and it sways the fight ENTIRELY in your favour. Normal CS is not a problem AT ALL, no.

It sways it into your favor, yes. It, however, is not gamebreaking. It's the same at 85, except as frost you also have imp CS.

But when you have the option to derp into a 3v4 or whatever you'll have, lockout the healer for 8 Seconds? It's obvious which side wins in a Battleground Environment.

What is your point? If you get a 8 second lockout on the healer he wasn't juking, or terrible at it. Things like not juking SHOULD be punished in this game, it is healthy and heightens the skillcap. I'm sorry you never learned how to juke, but maybe now you'll see the importance.

Arcane Mages would still be fine with Barrage/Missiles/Blink/Imp CS/other. You have Blink for gods sake. More than any Warlock could ever ask for. Arcane should be a derp Glasscannon spec with little to no AoE CC. Obviously you can't take everything away from them, but removing CoC is a start.

Blink isn't as almighty as you think it is. Rogues have ShS "for gods sake". Why would you compare warlocks to mages, they're two completely different classes?? Arcane has, as it should, the basic AoE CC a mage has. Removing anything is pointless.



In short, you should learn how to juke, how to avoid polies, and how to time your cds - instead of asking for mages to be glasscannons you never cared about, like they used to be. Also you ignored every specific argument I had against the points Kore brought up, grats.

 

[Llare]

But they are. When a class takes 50% of your hp in an ambush, it is a problem. If they trinket your nova+blink and shs on you, you're basically dead as arcane.







If you have enough people to take down a nonhealing pala in the 4 seconds a blanket cs lasts, then yes, the paladin would and SHOULD be shit on, be because ITS FUCKING 4v1. The reason you came up with this argument is that paladins are used to outhealing 3-4 players solo, which is not something that should happen. If your point is that a 8 second lockout is too much, learn to juke.



How is arcane anti melee? Frost is to a degree, but melees have no problem dropping arcane mages by using cd's correctly.



Just sit back and enjoy holy and prot paladin FotM, hunter FotM, Rogue ShS FotM, dear god.

YOU CAN'T JUKE AN IMP CS YOU MORON. All my points are on Imp. I just said that normal CS was perfectly fine.



Me=/=Kore.



I'm not talking about 4v1s, I'm saying Imp CS is gamebreaking in 5v4 OvsD situations. IT CAN COMPLETELY CHANGE A TEAM FIGHT IN YOUR FAVOUR. It is gamebreaking.



It shouldn't be removed from the Arcane Tree, no. But they should lose some of the available CC.



Assassins > Squishies. Least that's the way it should be. If you choose to play Arcane, due to Imp CS and the Damage, you should lose your mad survivability vs Rogues. Since, in all honesty in a BG an average Rogue doesn't stand a chance vs an average Arcane Mage, due to the CC they have available to them currently. It should be a clear cut choice between, I WANT TO CC MELEE SO I PICK FROST, or I WANT TO CHANGE O TEAM FIGHTS BY USING IMP CS BECAUSE IT CAN'T BE JUKED.



If Hunters get nerfed; Arcane Mages beat Holy and Prot Paladins due to Imp CS hands down. At least the Rogues would be speccing to counter Arcane Mages specifically. Rogues should beat non Frost Mages, in principle.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

Every single WSG. But I don't think you get it, mana shield is COMPLETELY useless outside of duels. It will be off in one single hit from any class, and reapplying it 3 times means you're oom. Great! Lets trade our ONLY defence against casters for that!

200 absorb every 12 seconds is far from useless, it reduces incoming dps by over 16 which isnt shabby. Besides, mages shouldnt be able to survive long with out a healer.

Your bias + ignoring of arguments is becoming extremely annoying.

I resent that, i am not ignoring your arguements at all and i am certainly not being biased. I would state that infact it is you who is being biased and failing to grasp the larger picture and look at it from differemt angles. The text you quoted was my summary of the arguments in favour of it, if you look below it there is a summary of the arguments for keeping it.

Welcome to PvP, where thought, anticipation and SKILL is needed. Instead of you standing there spamming your heals on a 2000 hp FC, you now actually have to watch out for the mage. When you're spamming starsurge, wrath and moonfires into that squishy mage, you can actually be stopped.

How is a blanket silence skillful? The mage merely has to tap it to be effective. Surely helping your melee teammates such as rogues to get on target to interruipt them and strategic use of sheep requires more skill.

No, it is not. Name one situation where it is gamebreaking, I haven't heard one yet. This argument you pulled out of your arse. "lol when 3 ppl are on fc he should be able to heal instead of getting silenced for 8 sec cus he bad and cant fake, he shud outheal 3 players wtf"

- Against any caster the mage can lock the opponent out for long enough to tear them a new one.

- Ingroup play having a healer locked out for 8seconds is incredibly gamebreaking, no matter how you look at it it is just too much. Dps classes don't have the cooldowns to compensate that they do at higher levels. The cooldown of counterspell is substantially shorter than the length of most offensives and much shorter than even a 2 minute cooldown

This was NEVER established, someone who doesn't play mages said this. I'm currently playing frost and it's extremely effective. No one is pigeonholed into playing arcane. Again you brought up an argument that was never proven true.

Again, this wasnt a statement, it was a summary of the arguments in favour of a nerf.

What does this have to do with removing CS? Again, learn to juke. CS adds a higher skillcap to this bracket, why are you so dead-intent on removing it. IF dispels were back in this bracket, mages would be useless, due to gapclosers like shs.

This was w.r.t the CoC removal

This does not compute with your earlier point of saying arcane completely overshadows frost. Good job.

Again, this wasnt a statement, it was a summary of the arguments in favour of a nerf. It is not parallel to the arcane over frost arguemtn it is contrary to it. Please understand this.

Mages are too squishy even WITH CoC. Now remove CS and any caster will lolderp on a mage like a hunter.

Mages thrive in a group, and wow is primarily balanced around group pvp. 1v1 is only balanced if it also satisfies group pvp. In a group mages will have healers and melee back up to help sort out enemy casters. Regardless, with CS removed mages are more or less in the same boat (1v1 casterwise) as locks, the other "pure" caster.

Sure, whatever, without the cc a mage has they're useless - so it's not just about "heritage" it's about actually being a viable class.

indeed, hence my removal of CoC from the proposed changes.

Idk where this argument comes from. Mages being squishy and easily 3 shotted, and classes like sub rogues being mobile simply means mages needs every snare/cc to have a chance.

Understand the word "argument", it does not mean statement.

 

[Llare]

How does a Blanket Silence over shroud a Talent tree giving a HUGE amount of CC?



Its not hard to Hard CS someone.



Also can do extremely well in PuGs and Premades.



Edit:heheh

Hunter players, bad Rogues. Gives them a crutch.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

It sways it into your favor, yes. It, however, is not gamebreaking. It's the same at 85, except as frost you also have imp CS.

No, it is not the same at 85, very far from it. There is no shield wall, survival instincts, divine protection, iceblock etc for classes relying on the healer to compensate for it. At 85 CS is a means for players to force those CDs to be popped. At 19 it is a means of allowing the kill target to be mindlessly zerged

What is your point? If you get a 8 second lockout on the healer he wasn't juking, or terrible at it. Things like not juking SHOULD be punished in this game, it is healthy and heightens the skillcap. I'm sorry you never learned how to juke, but maybe now you'll see the importance.

Indeed being poor at juking is a bad thing, and interrupts like kick and wind shear are fair ways of doing that. 8 seconds is not.

 

[Karmaz]

So I contacted Blizzard and I talked 2 the Gm and told him CS is gambrakin.



He gave me this:



Counterspell lockout duration reduced to 7 seconds, down from 8.



U HPPY?

 

[Severe]

YOU CAN'T JUKE AN IMP CS YOU MORON. All my points are on Imp. I just said that normal CS was perfectly fine

You brought up the 8 second lockout..?

I'm not talking about 4v1s, I'm saying Imp CS is gamebreaking in 5v4 OvsD situations. IT CAN COMPLETELY CHANGE A TEAM FIGHT IN YOUR FAVOUR. It is gamebreaking.

It can sway it in your favour yes, it's not some instant iwin button that compares to simple things like hunter damage. If this scenario is the case though, how about TRAINING THE MAGE?? Mages die in 3 hits now. They're not unkillable like you make them out to be.

It shouldn't be removed from the Arcane Tree, no. But they should lose some of the available CC.

No, they shouldn't

.

Assassins > Squishies. Least that's the way it should be. If you choose to play Arcane, due to Imp CS and the Damage, you should lose your mad survivability vs Rogues. Since, in all honesty in a BG an average Rogue doesn't stand a chance vs an average Arcane Mage, due to the CC they have available to them currently. It should be a clear cut choice between, I WANT TO CC MELEE SO I PICK FROST, or I WANT TO CHANGE O TEAM FIGHTS BY USING IMP CS BECAUSE IT CAN'T BE JUKED.

Again, mages don't have mad survivability against rogues, WE DIE IN 2 AMBUSHES. Can you get this through your head? An average rogue against an average mage will result in the mage getting derped really hard, at least from what i've seen. Imp cs is the same at 85, was the same at 80, I don't see your point, it's not that gamebreaking as you usually still use CS to lock someone out. I don't get why you're arguing this, imp cs is fine you will be able to trinket it ffs.

If Hunters get nerfed; Arcane Mages beat Holy and Prot Paladins due to Imp CS hands down. At least the Rogues would be speccing to counter Arcane Mages specifically. Rogues should beat non Frost Mages, in principle.

Arcane mages have to reset all the time against prot paladins in 1v1s, against holy I'd like to see an arcane mage drop 1.8k hp + in 4 seconds. I'm sorry, the game you're talking about does not correlate with the current game we're playing.

Indeed being poor at juking is a bad thing, and interrupts like kick and wind shear are fair ways of doing that. 8 seconds is not.

What? kick is 5 seconds and usually result in a kill due to rogue damage being high/more people being on the target. Shear is just a small interrupt and barely punishes the caster. People don't die in one global at this bracket, you need to realize this. A 1.8k hp holy paladin getting sheared won't even notice it, much less get punished for it, a kick will be noticeable, but not really punishable. If you can't juke the cs, you deserve the 8 (7 soon) lockout, which will also be trinkettable soon.

 

[Karmaz]

Hunter players, bad Rogues. Gives them a crutch.

Here is an analogy to describe what I got out of your comment:



The subject is..... Sand Castles



Llare says "But Ham sammiches are to0 have mayo AND Mustard"





Please Elaborate.

 

[Karmaz]

You brought up the 7 second lockout..?

lolfixtitxd

 

[Llare]

Here is an analogy to describe what I got out of your comment:



The subject is..... Sand Castles



Llare says "But Ham sammiches are to0 have mayo AND Mustard"





Please Elaborate.

Imagine the mountains and mountains of awful Rogues that can't kick to save their lives. Now imagine them as Arcane Mages with Imp CS. Lolo

It can sway it in your favour yes, it's not some instant iwin button that compares to simple things like hunter damage. If this scenario is the case though, how about TRAINING THE MAGE?? Mages die in 3 hits now. They're not unkillable like you make them out to be

Talking about an ongoing fight. Some awful undergeared mage pops up, doesn't do anything but Imp CS the healer, can completely change the fight. Why would the mage make himself available to target? Lol.

No, they shouldn't

Yes, they should.

Again, mages don't have mad survivability against rogues, WE DIE IN 2 AMBUSHES. Can you get this through your head? An average rogue against an average mage will result in the mage getting derped really hard, at least from what i've seen. Imp cs is the same at 85, was the same at 80, I don't see your point, it's not that gamebreaking as you usually still use CS to lock someone out. I don't get why you're arguing this, imp cs is fine you will be able to trinket it ffs.

That's good if two people use what they specced for, burst, to kill a squisy 2v1. Ignoring Ambush, the fact that you still have the CC to get melee off you, not to mention Blink. Makes it the same as a Melee trying to get to a Hunter; with alot less damage. And you wouldn't even need to be Frost.

Arcane mages have to reset all the time against prot paladins in 1v1s, against holy I'd like to see an arcane mage drop 1.8k hp + in 4 seconds. I'm sorry, the game you're talking about does not correlate with the current game we're playing.

Do not speak of 1v1s. Are you blind?

What? kick is 5 seconds and usually result in a kill due to rogue damage being high/more people being on the target. Shear is just a small interrupt and barely punishes the caster. People don't die in one global at this bracket, you need to realize this. A 1.8k hp holy paladin getting sheared won't even notice it, much less get punished for it, a kick will be noticeable, but not really punishable. If you can't juke the cs, you deserve the 8 (7 soon) lockout, which will also be trinkettable soon.

A healer with pressure on him, in a 4v4 or what have you. Him having to keep his team mates up, the Rogues being CCd by team mates. All good constructive teamplay; the rogues hop target to melee, here's where the healer is needed most. Oh no, wait, an Arcane Mage just ran in range. Shouldn't be able to have that indefinate reaction to an fight, with the CC they possess. Normal CS isn't a problem, it can be juked.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

What? kick is 5 seconds and usually result in a kill due to rogue damage being high/more people being on the target. Shear is just a small interrupt and barely punishes the caster. People don't die in one global at this bracket, you need to realize this. A 1.8k hp holy paladin getting sheared won't even notice it, much less get punished for it, a kick will be noticeable, but not really punishable. If you can't juke the cs, you deserve the 8 (7 soon) lockout, which will also be trinkettable soon.

It is impossible to fake cast through imp CS.

 

[Severe]

k, whatever, you're biased by playing a healer and used to 4v4s where you never die. This isn't the same game it used to be. Luckily new spells and utilites have been added, which most decent players want.



Cba replying to every single point you made as they've already been thourughly explained. Mages are the squishiest class, and die extremely fast to melee; in your scenarios mages never die. CS is mostly used to lock something out, I've never seen a random arcane mage blanket cs something without thought in a 4v4/5v5 etc situation and completely turn the game around, that is just your biased, exaggerated experience. But, however much you want imp CS removed, it won't be as it is a 1st tier talent which won't be changed because it affects 85. And completely removing CS would be stupid. In any case locks should receive felhunter w/ spell lock to this bracket (which is a 2 second blanket cs).



Next patch it will be trinkettable so I don't see the problem, even if 5 minute trinkets stay in, it's still major.

It is impossible to fake cast through imp CS.

NO KIDDING!? We were talking about the lockout, NOT imp CS. Refer to above, you will be able to trinket it.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

NO KIDDING!? We were talking about the lockout, NOT imp CS. Refer to above, you will be able to trinket it.

It would not be possible to remove imp CS without removing CS.



Your arguments are going around in circle and you are failing to take into acount other perspectives.

 

[Severe]

It would not be possible to remove imp CS without removing CS.

Are you serious with this? Thanks captain obvious, I JUST pointed it out in the post you quoted. In your actual quote I even mention it will be trinkettable so your tears can stop already.

Your arguments are going around in circle and you are failing to take into acount other perspectives.

No, they're not. You're the one just repeating yourself and stating extremely obvious things with no substance. You haven't come with any other perspective yourself than "lol wtf 4 second blanket cs is op and gamebreaking because someone is unable to cast for 4 WHOLE seconds" and "wtf 7 second lockout am i supposed to juke this".

 

[Karmaz]

Imagine the mountains and mountains of awful Rogues that can't kick to save their lives. Now imagine them as Arcane Mages with Imp CS. Lolo

Sorry but



Counterspell:

- ON the GCD

- 24 second CD

- 4 second silence IF talented

- 7 Second Lockout IF caught casting



Kick:

- OFF the GCD

- 10 second CD

- 1 second silence IF Talented (combatlol)

- 5 second SCHOOL Lockout if caught casting



If they never kicked they are most likely to spec into Arcane Concentration because CS is bad.



Different spells are different :\

 

[Kore nametooshort]

Sorry but



Counterspell:

- ON the GCD

- 24 second CD

- 4 second silence IF talented

- 7 Second Lockout IF caught casting



Kick:

- OFF the GCD

- 10 second CD

- 1 second silence IF Talented (combatlol)

- 5 second SCHOOL Lockout if caught casting



If they never kicked they are most likely to spec into Arcane Concentration because CS is bad.



Different spells are different :\

Counterspell is off the GCD. You also imply that it isnt school lock out, the lockout of CS is school lockout. The silence obviously isnt.



Ofcourse they arent the same spell, but the point llare was trying to make was that Imp CS is better than kick due to the duration, silence and its range and in the hands of FOTM there could quite easily be too many CS's flying around.