How to balance 19's (final)

[Severe]

I would argue that forcing mages to cast frostbolt strategically takes more skill than snaring a whole group every 15 seconds. Take a situation where you have a warrior and a mage. In any spec the mage has the tools to get away from the warrior without CoC: charge>nova>Fbolt>intercept>blink>Fbolt and the mage is away. I'm really not trying to nerf mages into the ground, im 6/12 agm on my mage atm and fully intend to enjoy playing it, but I want the bracket to be fixed so I'm giving it all serious consideration. I understand what you're saying about CS, trinkets, 30% surv buff etc but atm im inclined to keep it out but i am giving it seious thought. And mana shield isnt crap, it sheilds about 200 damage every 12 seconds, nice but not OP.

"Strategic" frostbolts hasn't existed since rank 1 frostbolts were removed, what are you on about? And no, it doesn't require more skills, it just requires you casting, which means melee will get on you, which means you will have to juke and due to low survivability (even with mana shield) you're dead, or forced to reset fight and bandage. CoC requires more skill than spamming frostbolts, as you still have to move while doing it.



You brought up warriors, with the worst mobility as an example? Frost control IS NOT about controlling someone in a 1v1 situation, its about multi-control, so yes, if a group is cluster-fucking they deserve to be cone'd.



Removing utility like this is not healthy for low level brackets. And removing just one snare from mages IS nerfing them to the ground. The only way I would see the removal of CoC plausible is if mages got a low level version of ice barrier, or frost armor back.



Look at it this way: mages dont have frost armor anymore and so when nova is on CD, given the mage has no pet (playing arcane/pet dead etc), rogues will have 100% uptime on the mage. When blink is on cd as well, ANY melee will have 100% uptime on the mage.



Not to mention outside of arcane barrier and a heavy sp setup (which means low survivability), damage is so low all a mage provides is utility/control.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

it would be good to get some non mage PoV's in here regarding the mage changes.

 

[chíll]

it would be good to get some non mage PoV's in here regarding the mage changes.

damnit >_<

 

[justgotagm]

Frost Nova can freeze way too many people with such a short cooldown and 1-2 mages on a team can keep the FC completely free all the time.



CS can silence any EFC from healing them selves for 4 seconds in which 1-2 people instantly kill the EFC.



Mages are doing just fine they need a little nerfage.





Kore keep it up! Doing a good job.

 

[Severe]

it would be good to get some non mage PoV's in here regarding the mage changes.

Why? Have you EVER heard anyone complain about mages in this bracket before? You are being biased here, and you're going the wrong way with your changes by reducing the skillcap and making mages very one-dimensional. The bracket NEEDS utility like this, instead of removing a class' utility, add more to others.



Same thing for druid over me, completely biased. "Frost Nova can freeze way too many people with such a short cooldown and 1-2 mages on a team can keep the FC completely free all the time." LOL. Sorry, but that is one of the most retarded things I have ever read. It's a 25 second cooldown which freezes you for 8 seconds, breaks on damage AND as a druid you can shift out of it.



"CS can silence any EFC from healing them selves for 4 seconds in which 1-2 people instantly kill the EFC." is also a hilarious one. Ok so you're basically saying an EFC should be able to outheal 3 players? You're saying rogues should lose kick as well then, as an EFC healing himself with a rogue on him would result in the exact same thing.. Sorry, your argument is completely off.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

Why? Have you EVER heard anyone complain about mages in this bracket before? You are being biased here, and you're going the wrong way with your changes by reducing the skillcap and making mages very one-dimensional. The bracket NEEDS utility like this, instead of removing a class' utility, add more to others.



Same thing for druid over me, completely biased. "Frost Nova can freeze way too many people with such a short cooldown and 1-2 mages on a team can keep the FC completely free all the time." LOL. Sorry, but that is one of the most retarded things I have ever read. It's a 25 second cooldown which freezes you for 8 seconds, breaks on damage AND as a druid you can shift out of it.



"CS can silence any EFC from healing them selves for 4 seconds in which 1-2 people instantly kill the EFC." is also a hilarious one. Ok so you're basically saying an EFC should be able to outheal 3 players? You're saying rogues should lose kick as well then, as an EFC healing himself with a rogue on him would result in the exact same thing.. Sorry, your argument is completely off.

In the interests of not being biased it is a good idea to get as many points of view as possible.



Next patch druids will not be able to shift out of roots. I am not looking at this from a druids view point, i am trying to remain as objective as possible. Also there is no need to over react, i am taking into serious consideration everything you are saying, I'm not going to suggest anything to blizzard that i am not sure will benefit the bracket.



You do make a compelling arguement for keeping CoC, but as i said, in the interests of keeping it unbiased it would be good to get more non mage perspectives in. I remain unconvinced about Counterspell, yes 2 minute trinkets might fix it, but offensives often last longer than a CS cool down and eating a 4sec silence with no chance of faking or eating a 7 sec is a long time to be without heals.

 

[justgotagm]

I'm not saying an EFC should outheal 3 people, I'm saying they should be able to get a heal off and not get stomped so quick which relates back to the 30% damage nerf.



I'm not being biased I'm talking about Fcing on my pally. Not healing on my druid.... Yes i can shift out as a druid. Please don't assume shit or your argument will be off.



I'M NOT SAYING LOSE YOUR FUCKING COUNTERSPELL I'M SAYING TWEAK IT AND REDUCE HOW GOOD IT IS.



Mages have so many fucking tools compared to other classes its ridiculous. you have it easy. CoC and Frostbolt alone make you unstoppable if you know how to play.



Besides warrior, you can cream Paladin, Rogue, Druid too.

 

[Llare]

Why? Have you EVER heard anyone complain about mages in this bracket before? You are being biased here, and you're going the wrong way with your changes by reducing the skillcap and making mages very one-dimensional. The bracket NEEDS utility like this, instead of removing a class' utility, add more to others.



Same thing for druid over me, completely biased. "Frost Nova can freeze way too many people with such a short cooldown and 1-2 mages on a team can keep the FC completely free all the time." LOL. Sorry, but that is one of the most retarded things I have ever read. It's a 25 second cooldown which freezes you for 8 seconds, breaks on damage AND as a druid you can shift out of it.



"CS can silence any EFC from healing them selves for 4 seconds in which 1-2 people instantly kill the EFC." is also a hilarious one. Ok so you're basically saying an EFC should be able to outheal 3 players? You're saying rogues should lose kick as well then, as an EFC healing himself with a rogue on him would result in the exact same thing.. Sorry, your argument is completely off.

Mages are ridiculous for what they are.



Frost: I AM A FROST MAGE I WILL CC YOU FOREVER, this is acceptable as it's what the spec should be meant to do. Low damage with constant CC.



Arcane: Decent damage, low CDs save Nova etc, but with Nova AND CoC it gives a damage dealing class way way too much CC. Then add in Improved CS and there's really no reason anyone would use a Frost mage over Arcane. It just isn't worth it.



Balance is about making sure one spec doesn't COMPLETELY overshadow the others.



Arcane Mages are overpowered at the moment. High CC, an Escape Mech, decent damage with low CDs AND Improved CS? That isn't overpowered? It isn't anywhere near as redic as Hunters are, no. Arcane needs a serious rethink, not to mention Fire.

 

[Evade]

arcane is fine

 

[Llare]

arcane is fine

Hunters nerfed =s Arcane Mage FotM.



Kills off Holy Paladins.



It'll happen.



Arcane is far from fine. Needs to be a definite line between how much CC a Character can do in correlation with the Damage.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

Needs to be a definite line between how much CC a Character can do in correlation with the Damage.

Indeed.



Anywho, Im off to bed so i won't be responding till tomorrow.

 

[yasueh]

yup. use "experienced user of the 15-19 bracket".. blizzard tends to hate everything called twinks

Players hate twinks. They also hate multiboxers. The difference between the 2 groups, and the reason Blizzard actually listen to multiboxers, may have something to do with this:



The Auction House

Private Server Discussion



Multiboxers respect Blizzard, and they get respect from them in return.





Stating that while you may well be a moderator of twinkinfo.com you do not approve of the existence of certain parts of the site, might help to improve your credibility with Blizzard. Although to be honest, Blizzard only have themselves to blame, if people would rather play on servers where there is balance.

 

[Tinymidget]

how about for mages have polymorph not heal the target, because seriously it's annoying when you sheep someone at low health and you cant keep poly up otherwise it'll just make them at full health and kill you. Mages don't need a nerf, they need a buff

 

[Pizza]

Removal of disengage in addition to the removal of conc and scatter would leave hunters cooldownless. I of course bow to your superior hunter expertise, but you will have to convince me. #17 needs to stay as a damage nerf, hunter damage is simply too high

I was saying that you should replace Concussive Shot with Disengage. I didn't mention anything about damage.

 

[Severe]

I'm not saying an EFC should outheal 3 people, I'm saying they should be able to get a heal off and not get stomped so quick which relates back to the 30% damage nerf.



I'm not being biased I'm talking about Fcing on my pally. Not healing on my druid.... Yes i can shift out as a druid. Please don't assume shit or your argument will be off.



I'M NOT SAYING LOSE YOUR FUCKING COUNTERSPELL I'M SAYING TWEAK IT AND REDUCE HOW GOOD IT IS.



Mages have so many fucking tools compared to other classes its ridiculous. you have it easy. CoC and Frostbolt alone make you unstoppable if you know how to play.



Besides warrior, you can cream Paladin, Rogue, Druid too.

Your first argument has nothing to do with CS, but with damage. If the EFC dies in the 4 second blanket cs against 3 players, then it is because the players are doing a lot of damage, not because the EFC is silenced, it wouldn't have made a big difference if there was a rogue to kick, a mage without imp cs or a sham with shear, the EFC would still die relatively fast.



You're using FCing as a pally as reference and then bringing out the "lolnova every1 in midfield while they run flag" which means you are biased, because you don't like sitting in a 8 second freeze if your trinket is not up. Guess what, the game has been like this for very long, even when dispels were in. Either save your trinket, train/stun/silence the mage etc.



It can't be tweaked. It's balanced around 85 and tp.



And no, mages don't have it easy, mage survivability is completely dependant on the utility you want to remove. Against hunters mage is the weakest class and a free kill.



Who can't cream a warrior? Good prot paladins do not have a big issue with mages 1v1. Rogues also have a fair shot with good trinket/LoS and ShS use. Cream druids? What are you smoking? Resto druids are unkillable if they prehot imp cs (in a 1v1 situation).



Anyways, mages SHOULD have the upper hand against melee, it is how they are designed. However melee (spare warriors) are nowhere near hardcountered by mages.

 

[Llare]

Your first argument has nothing to do with CS, but with damage. If the EFC dies in the 4 second blanket cs against 3 players, then it is because the players are doing a lot of damage, not because the EFC is silenced, it wouldn't have made a big difference if there was a rogue to kick, a mage without imp cs or a sham with shear, the EFC would still die relatively fast.



You're using FCing as a pally as reference and then bringing out the "lolnova every1 in midfield while they run flag" which means you are biased, because you don't like sitting in a 8 second freeze if your trinket is not up. Guess what, the game has been like this for very long, even when dispels were in. Either save your trinket, train/stun/silence the mage etc.



It can't be tweaked. It's balanced around 85 and tp.



And no, mages don't have it easy, mage survivability is completely dependant on the utility you want to remove. Against hunters mage is the weakest class and a free kill.



Who can't cream a warrior? Good prot paladins do not have a big issue with mages 1v1. Rogues also have a fair shot with good trinket/LoS and ShS use. Cream druids? What are you smoking? Resto druids are unkillable if they prehot imp cs (in a 1v1 situation).



Anyways, mages SHOULD have the upper hand against melee, it is how they are designed. However melee (spare warriors) are nowhere near hardcountered by mages.

Mages have the most CC in this bracket, any spec.



And Arcane still dishes out amazing Damage. Aswell as having an instant Silence.



Fire needs a rework and Arcane needs nerfs.

 

[Severe]

Mages are ridiculous for what they are.



Frost: I AM A FROST MAGE I WILL CC YOU FOREVER, this is acceptable as it's what the spec should be meant to do. Low damage with constant CC.



Arcane: Decent damage, low CDs save Nova etc, but with Nova AND CoC it gives a damage dealing class way way too much CC. Then add in Improved CS and there's really no reason anyone would use a Frost mage over Arcane. It just isn't worth it.



Balance is about making sure one spec doesn't COMPLETELY overshadow the others.



Arcane Mages are overpowered at the moment. High CC, an Escape Mech, decent damage with low CDs AND Improved CS? That isn't overpowered? It isn't anywhere near as redic as Hunters are, no. Arcane needs a serious rethink, not to mention Fire.

But frost mages DONT cc you forever. They have 2 novas which DRs each other, CoC and sheep. Sheep is a long as fuck cast (1.7 sec since cata) which is easily interrupted/LoS'd if you know what you're doing. Not to mention, which I have said many times now; mages. die. very. fast.



Arcane has decent damage yes, not OP damage. rogue, druid, priest dmg etc is easily comparable.

Balance is NOT about making sure one spec doesn't completely overshadow others, it's about giving each class at least one viable specc that competes with every other classes' specc. This is why cata pvp balance is failing at higher levels; blizzard is trying to make every specc viable, which is a mistake. E.g fury for pve, arms for pvp. However frost at this level is a completely viable option to arcane.



Who wants to play fire? they need to stop caring about gimmick speccs and focus on the main aspects; frost for pvp, arcane for pve. Arcane mages are not overpowered at all, however should damage be brought down, and survivability added, I don't see a problem in making arcane less comparable to frost, which is what most mages want to play.

 

[Llare]

But frost mages DONT cc you forever. They have 2 novas which DRs each other, CoC and sheep. Sheep is a long as fuck cast (1.7 sec since cata) which is easily interrupted/LoS'd if you know what you're doing. Not to mention, which I have said many times now; mages. die. very. fast.



Arcane has decent damage yes, not OP damage. rogue, druid, priest dmg etc is easily comparable.

Balance is NOT about making sure one spec doesn't completely overshadow others, it's about giving each class at least one viable specc that competes with every other classes' specc. This is why cata pvp balance is failing at higher levels; blizzard is trying to make every specc viable, which is a mistake. E.g fury for pve, arms for pvp. However frost is at this level is a completely viable option to arcane.



Who wants to play fire? they need to stop caring about gimmick speccs and focus on the main aspects; frost for pvp, arcane for pve. Arcane mages are not overpowered at all, however should damage be brought down, and survivability added, I don't see a problem in making arcane less comparable to frost, which is what most mages want to play.

You only comment on the CC in a negative perspective, simply because Arcane has near all of the CC available to a Frost Mage, with Improved CS and Damage.



If Arcane didn't have nearly all the CC a Frost Mage had, your comments would be different. There is no reason to spec Frost in the 15-19 Bracket; and that's a problem. Some of the CC available to Arcane at the moment, needs to be removed to be Frost specific.

 

[Nakedplumber]

The only thing I can say is This>Blizzard

 

[Evade]

You only comment on the CC in a negative perspective, simply because Arcane has near all of the CC available to a Frost Mage, with Improved CS and Damage.



If Arcane didn't have nearly all the CC a Frost Mage had, your comments would be different. There is no reason to spec Frost in the 15-19 Bracket; and that's a problem. Some of the CC available to Arcane at the moment, needs to be removed to be Frost specific.

water elemental nova isn't amazing at all...