How to balance 19's (final)
- Thread starter Kore nametooshort
- Start date
Llare
your dad
Arcane Mages currently fill a large gap that is needed. They're Anti-Caster, derping into a skirmish and an Imp CS can just win it instantly, which is alright if it's what they are meant to do. Perhaps the lockout time for CS is too great.
However with the CC they still obtain, Sheep, CoC and Nova; not to mention Blink as an Escape Mech, they are also very Anti-Melee. Being able to easily fulfil two needs, with one Spec, is fundamentally wrong.
Look at Frost, it's a BIT more Anti-Melee, but weighing in Pros and Cons? Imp CS makes the spec choice obvious. It outweighs CoC Freezing and Pet Nova, because it can change a game instantly. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Anti-Caster spells in this bracket; Priests and Holy Paladins are/are boarding OP, and an Arcane Mage should be a good counter.
But when they can do that and also manage to shrug Melees off them, without any real hassle, is when things start to get silly. And no, Mages in theory should never stand up to Hunters in a battleground environment, that should never change.
If you take them over Imp CS + Arcanes Damage then you're blind; in a competitive aspect, there is no reason to spec Frost, ever. There will always be a greater need for Silencing a healer, a definite Silence > any self preservation vs Melee you might gain via extra Slows/Snares.
However with the CC they still obtain, Sheep, CoC and Nova; not to mention Blink as an Escape Mech, they are also very Anti-Melee. Being able to easily fulfil two needs, with one Spec, is fundamentally wrong.
Look at Frost, it's a BIT more Anti-Melee, but weighing in Pros and Cons? Imp CS makes the spec choice obvious. It outweighs CoC Freezing and Pet Nova, because it can change a game instantly. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Anti-Caster spells in this bracket; Priests and Holy Paladins are/are boarding OP, and an Arcane Mage should be a good counter.
But when they can do that and also manage to shrug Melees off them, without any real hassle, is when things start to get silly. And no, Mages in theory should never stand up to Hunters in a battleground environment, that should never change.
Evade said:
Severe said:
If you take them over Imp CS + Arcanes Damage then you're blind; in a competitive aspect, there is no reason to spec Frost, ever. There will always be a greater need for Silencing a healer, a definite Silence > any self preservation vs Melee you might gain via extra Slows/Snares.
siwtz
Legend
Rogues are made for starting a fight by a "opener". Thats what they do, and after that you can blink>shadowstep<frostnova>trinket<cone of cold. And now they have used all their cooldowns and so have you. I agree with nerfing arcane since it should not have the same meele cc as a frost mage. The spec should be specified for one or the other.
I also tend to have problem with mages when im trying to heal or fc. When i get a frostnova and i trinket i get a sheep or the otherway around. This will keep me away from the flaggcarrier enough, you should not need CoC and silience to do that.
l30t53dd6p
OG
Not getting the point of this thread. If you want to balance it in this way or put your point of few on twinkinfo id rather have you start at the movement speeds wich is the most stupid change blizzard ever made to this braket. Not to mention the new class racials.
The idea is good but its better to wait for the next patch and see how it all will work out.
The idea is good but its better to wait for the next patch and see how it all will work out.
chÃll
Legend
i cannot honestly BELIEVE this, are you actually saying that arcane has as much CC as frost? 
? excuse me, ladies and gentlemen, while i go shoot my brains out.. this is just too unbearable. mages are fine, warriors are not. its warriors who need a gap closer, not mages that needs theirs removed. EVERYTHING else in this bracket, comes down to sheer noob-ness. rogues has shadowstep, and better damage. paladins has hammer of stun and better damage. also, they have selfhealing, but thats beside the point.
? excuse me, ladies and gentlemen, while i go shoot my brains out.. this is just too unbearable. mages are fine, warriors are not. its warriors who need a gap closer, not mages that needs theirs removed. EVERYTHING else in this bracket, comes down to sheer noob-ness. rogues has shadowstep, and better damage. paladins has hammer of stun and better damage. also, they have selfhealing, but thats beside the point.Karok
Legend
chÃll said:i cannot honestly BELIEVE this, are you actually saying that arcane has as much CC as frost?
If i've understood you correctly, you're saying the ONLY issue in the whole bracket is warrior's need for a gap closer? If so I must ask, do you even play this game?
chÃll
Legend
you haven't understood me correctly, then. the only issue regarding mages seemingly "op" crowd controlling abilities versus melees, is that warriors need a gap closer. rogues can shadowpunt you no problems. and paladins, well, i'd like to introduce you to the concept of "exorcism". now, exorcism hurts.
i know, it sucks, the blanket freeze, those 4 seconds must hurt.. then again, have you noticed what happens 80% of the TIME a mage jumps in an novas? yup. he gets his ass punted major.
i know, it sucks, the blanket freeze, those 4 seconds must hurt.. then again, have you noticed what happens 80% of the TIME a mage jumps in an novas? yup. he gets his ass punted major.
Ok, let me see if i can summarise the arguments so far.
In favour of the changes:
- Counterspell locks out the target for too long and the blanket silence makes it impossible to fake
- Counterspell is too gamebreaking in every situation where it is used.
- Arcane mages have a larger net amount of utility and this over shadows frosts control, meaning that players are more or less pigeon holed into arcane
- There are no defensive dispells to counter frost mages
Against the changes:
- The pure control of frost in many situations makes it a viable alternative to arcane
- Keeping counterspell is fine because you can fake cast it and trinkets will fix this for arcane
- Mages are too squishy without CoC
- It is a mages heritage to be very effective against melee, removing it would completely changes the role of the mage
- The addition of buffs to other classes mobility will mean that mages will need CoC to compete
I am far from convinced about keeping counterspell. It seems to me that the arguements for removing it are stronger than those advocating it staying.
I am however still on the fence with CoC. Having a frost mage on defense without it does allow for a few clutch CCs with novas however it leaves the mage pretty defenceless once his novas are used, especially considering that many classes get a mobility buff. It is no good saying that his team mates will help him because it is purely the mages job to provide the peels. However looking at it from the attacking side you are looking at a feeze or snare every 6 to 8 seconds and the frostbolts on top of that. Without defensive dispells the O will struggle, however once the mage is dead you are sitting pretty. As an arcane mage (without counterspell) other than frostnova, which has a long enough CD to make it a panic button, you have to stand and cast to snare your victim, not in keeping with the role of the class - the uber mobile caster. From a defenders pov, against an arcane, your chances of catching as arcane are lowered by the instant snare they can apply.
I am inclined more towards keeping CoC after reviewing these arguements.
In favour of the changes:
- Counterspell locks out the target for too long and the blanket silence makes it impossible to fake
- Counterspell is too gamebreaking in every situation where it is used.
- Arcane mages have a larger net amount of utility and this over shadows frosts control, meaning that players are more or less pigeon holed into arcane
- There are no defensive dispells to counter frost mages
Against the changes:
- The pure control of frost in many situations makes it a viable alternative to arcane
- Keeping counterspell is fine because you can fake cast it and trinkets will fix this for arcane
- Mages are too squishy without CoC
- It is a mages heritage to be very effective against melee, removing it would completely changes the role of the mage
- The addition of buffs to other classes mobility will mean that mages will need CoC to compete
I am far from convinced about keeping counterspell. It seems to me that the arguements for removing it are stronger than those advocating it staying.
I am however still on the fence with CoC. Having a frost mage on defense without it does allow for a few clutch CCs with novas however it leaves the mage pretty defenceless once his novas are used, especially considering that many classes get a mobility buff. It is no good saying that his team mates will help him because it is purely the mages job to provide the peels. However looking at it from the attacking side you are looking at a feeze or snare every 6 to 8 seconds and the frostbolts on top of that. Without defensive dispells the O will struggle, however once the mage is dead you are sitting pretty. As an arcane mage (without counterspell) other than frostnova, which has a long enough CD to make it a panic button, you have to stand and cast to snare your victim, not in keeping with the role of the class - the uber mobile caster. From a defenders pov, against an arcane, your chances of catching as arcane are lowered by the instant snare they can apply.
I am inclined more towards keeping CoC after reviewing these arguements.
Walls of text, notes, pve changes and links added.
I see your point, but i don't think this is a problem. The problem for melee is catching the mage rather than killing it. Most melee would be able to make their way through mana shield. I agree it is a slight imbalance w.r.t melee, but it is needed as defence against ranged classes
@Pizza:
I apologise, I misinterpreted what you were saying. You would see hunters with two snares and no cooldowns other than pet stuns? I do see the attractiveness of that, it would allow hunters to control the field and be more of a team player whilst allowing melee to use their CDs to gain distance. I will consider it.
chÃll said:
I see your point, but i don't think this is a problem. The problem for melee is catching the mage rather than killing it. Most melee would be able to make their way through mana shield. I agree it is a slight imbalance w.r.t melee, but it is needed as defence against ranged classes
@Pizza:
I apologise, I misinterpreted what you were saying. You would see hunters with two snares and no cooldowns other than pet stuns? I do see the attractiveness of that, it would allow hunters to control the field and be more of a team player whilst allowing melee to use their CDs to gain distance. I will consider it.
Latest changes
-More notes added
-Levels at which certain abilities are learned have been tweaked slightly to fit in with the levels at which that class learns other abilities
-Change to Explosive Shot
-Cone of Cold change reverted, it will now be staying in the bracket
-Hunters will now keep concussive shot but will not get disengage until level 20
-More notes added
-Levels at which certain abilities are learned have been tweaked slightly to fit in with the levels at which that class learns other abilities
-Change to Explosive Shot
-Cone of Cold change reverted, it will now be staying in the bracket
-Hunters will now keep concussive shot but will not get disengage until level 20
examinerEU
Legend
If your trying to pitch skull bash for druids why cant we get shield bash
Warriors dmg IS too high no doubt; but if your going to nerf damage surely give us some sort of backdrop. DPS and just watch ppl heal to full?
Warriors dmg IS too high no doubt; but if your going to nerf damage surely give us some sort of backdrop. DPS and just watch ppl heal to full?
examinerEU said:If your trying to pitch skull bash for druids why cant we get shield bash
Warriors dmg IS too high no doubt; but if your going to nerf damage surely give us some sort of backdrop. DPS and just watch ppl heal to full?
Skull bash has a 1 minute cooldown since we have no access to talents for it, it also costs a heavy amount of energy. It also helps to compensate for the ferals nerf to mobility. As such it cannot be used with anywhere near as much impunity as shield bash. Ferals also have very limited utility. Warriors already have some anticaster utility in mortal strike and the only remaining offensive dispel in the bracket. I came to the conclusion that warriors are fine without it and with it there would be too many interrupts with it. Skull bash is limited enough to not have this effect.
Edit: If you compare skull bash directly to intercept then you will see that warriors will get a better version of skullbash
Skullbash/Intercept
25energy/10rage
13yd range/8-25yd range
4sec school lockout/3 second stun
1min CD/30sec CD
You can see in almost every way intercept is the superior to skullbash
How often do you ever touch evocate atm? and mana shield absorbs on a 1:1 ratio now, it changed with cata