How to balance 19's (final)

[Evade]

4 words, Not going to happen

just like 10-14 bracket,



herr deerp see wat i did ther

 

[Kore nametooshort]

#17 and #24 are bad changes. 17 should be replaced with Disengage. Also, maybe mention something about having all Hunter pet abilities raised to level 20 since they raised the majority of them already.

Removal of disengage in addition to the removal of conc and scatter would leave hunters cooldownless. I of course bow to your superior hunter expertise, but you will have to convince me. #17 needs to stay as a damage nerf, hunter damage is simply too high

a Big Heal with a 3 second cast (heals for 500)



I ALSO think whatever Blizzard does they CANNOT nerf Hunters and Paladins and whatver else is OP right now to the ground!



I also think mages are fine! They are not to squishing they tear me up! Arcane blast critting for a shit ton with a 4 seconds CD??

I don't feel the big heal is so necessary. Mana isnt generally an issue, so as long as the flash heals are sufficient it will be fine.



Indeed, over nerfing is bad. I have reduced some of my values from previous threads or made some of the "base" rather than total.



damage output and survivability are two seperate issues, mages die too easy if they take damage. Its interesting that you bring up barrage. I pvped my mage through 10-19 and found it was very OP at level 10 but by the time i got to 19 i found it more appropriate, i'll take another look at this.

making concussive shot at lvl 26, their should be a decent cooldown ( dont remember whats the cd atm) like maybe it slows you for 3-4 seconds and has a CD of 10-12 seconds. Same thing for scatter shot, the cd should be something like 1 minute .

This will not be possible, it would affect endgame which is something i am avoiding at all costs.

Your mage suggestions are ridiculous and does not correlate with how squishy mages are in this bracket (you even mentioned it yourself). Nova is the ONLY defence a mage has against melee when blink is on cd, making it level 20 would be stupid. Also "Frost has too many snares" is an incorrect statement. Frost has 2 snares which DR's each other, how is that too many, considering its the only defence a mage has against melee when blink is on cd? If you want nova gone, then shs and charge should go to make up for it. Which in turn would just lower the skillcap even more. Mages are fine except for low survivability and the 4 second blanket cs, however that can't be changed as it is a first tier talent and removing cs completely from 19 would be retarded.



edit: apart from that post looks good.

Please discuss this further, this is something i was unsure of myself. I am inclined to rethink my position on nova.

Just wondering, are you planning to attach any numbers you got from http://www.twinkinfo.com/forums/15-19-bracket/17603-help-balance-19s-wtb-recount-data.html to help back up some of your statements about dps?

I will be linking that and other threads to this one when im done. I will also be filling in the "X"'s with proper figures when i get round to it.

A Rogue's dmg atm actually is good, but they don't have enough ToT... so you're doing it wrong, put a ToT ability for lower lvls, and give Sinister Strike a slight buff. Eviscerate dmg is alright afaik. And, I think the Bloodthirst nerf was a little too strong, can't be nerfed by more than 30% imo.

BUT; with that being said, the rest looks good.

Disclaimer: I didn't read it thoroughly, but these were the things I noticed.

Hmm, i'll rethink rogue damage, i've had mixed signals regarding rogues recently, but ive never found them worrying myself in the gulch.

The bloodthirst nerf is base damage.

Your changes to ferals would make them OP. I don't know what ferals you see, but they hit for truckloads, and their DoTs are insane. Adding a gap-closing interrupt, an ambush, and nature's grasp would be an insane buff to them, they'd be dominating the bracket. Essentially they would be able to open for what I'm assuming would be ambush like damage, apply dots that tick for over 200s, and still keep their OP finisher -> 800-1.2k ferocious bite crits, while GAINING an interrupt/gap closer and CC. Skull-bash would be too much, ravage is pushing it.

Ravage would hit 400 in full AP gear. Ferals find haste tasty so sacrificing that haste would drop dps, but then again taking the haste you result in weak burst. I have discussed this in my balancing 19 dps thread and the conclusion i came to was that it would be balanced. Fero bite does not crit 800 unless you commit a lot of energy to it which gimps your dps.

overall good work. sliigtly too much dmg reduction on the warriors.. even with added gap closers, idk.. this would just be too much :S..

also, i disagree with the removal of counterspell & frost nova. CS isn't that good, in fact. its almost exactly the time it takes for the GCD to wear off, and then cast a fireball, is this so bad?.. i mean sure, 4 seconds might seem like much, but in the big picture, i find that it isn't as effective, being the mage, as you make it out to be. (i know, i'm ranting to protect my class, sue me :S)

also, frost nova is the LEAST effective spell ever. what you're failing to think about is, that frost nova HAS to be used in conjuction with blink, or its useless, and even after a blink and WITH the debuff, you can make it to the mage in 1 frostball + a fire blast.. that ain't too bad..

I disagree about CS. On my pally and druid (and shaman but meh) I've found it excruciating to watch that 8 second lockout and the 4 sec blanket is no carebear either.

As i said, i am inclined to rethink nova.

kick>cs i see no point in nerfing it just raises skill cap

A healer can eat a kick to some extent and its easier to fake. If a mage gets you in a CS you're screwed and if he doesnt get you in that you still have to eat the imp CS regardless of how good your faking skills are if he's arcane

Personally the only change that needs to be made to warriors is that they need hamstring. Nothing else is needed, just hamstring. Any other changes would actually make them too OP.

I don't want the bracket to be "adequate". I want it fixed.

 

[Evade]

CS is fine. fakecast.

 

[Bankbeauty]

just like 10-14 bracket,



herr deerp see wat i did ther

Haha, did you see that even in 19s bracket Kore introduced level 10s fix?

 

[Evade]

Haha, did you see that even in 19s bracket Kore introduced level 10s fix?

itll still never catch on. nice try though.

 

[Xposure]

4 words, Not going to happen

I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of the changes came trough, like smaller heals and less burst overall.

 

[Bankbeauty]

itll still never catch on. nice try though.

Wait, who has wargames going everyday? Oh level 10 twink, I see, I see.

 

[Bankbeauty]

I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of the changes came trough.

True, but all of that, NEVER.

 

[Severe]

I disagree about CS. On my pally and druid (and shaman but meh) I've found it excruciating to watch that 8 second lockout and the 4 sec blanket is no carebear either.

As i said, i am inclined to rethink nova.

No, 8 second lockout should not be changed, it simply encourages juking and raises the skillcap etc, it is only healthy for the game. The 4 second blanket is fine really, it gives mages some very needed utility considering they're the squishiest class. Also with 4.0.6 you will be able to trinket silences. Once again a 2-min cd trinket would balance it out.

 

[Xposure]

CS is 7 seconds next patch, but yeah... doesn't really matter much does it?

 

[Kore nametooshort]

itll still never catch on. nice try though.

Keep it relevant. Im gonna count posts like these as off topic and delete them.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

Changed:

17, 23, 27, 33, 34, 35, 38, 39 and 53.



Bloodthirst damage nerf reduced.

Rgoue buff reduced

Shadow damage recalculated

Sader strike nerfreduced

CoC and Nova swapped places

hunter weapon damage reduction

 

[augiddin]

A healer can eat a kick to some extent and its easier to fake. If a mage gets you in a CS you're screwed and if he doesnt get you in that you still have to eat the imp CS regardless of how good your faking skills are if he's arcane

cs is just as easy 2 fake also a lot easier 2 los since the mage usually isn't riding you, also kick has an 8 second lock out on a 10 sec cd vs cs 8 seconed lock out on a 24 second cd. I could see possibly taking out imp cs but you have to realize that it is in the the first tier in order to give end game pvp more options with their specs so it isn't going to move.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

cs is just as easy 2 fake also a lot easier 2 los since the mage usually isn't riding you, also kick has an 8 second lock out on a 10 sec cd vs cs 8 seconed lock out on a 24 second cd. I could see possibly taking out imp cs but you have to realize that it is in the the first tier in order to give end game pvp more options with their specs so it isn't going to move.

Kick is a 5 second lock out. Removing imp CS won't happen, because as you say it would affect endgame.

 

[Severe]

Cone of Cold is now learned at level 20

What is it with you and trying to reduce the skillcap? CoC is completely fine, mage control doesn't need nerfing AT ALL. You do realize how terrible mana shield is right? It cannot make up for the loss of CoC. Running as frost is all about control, and every freeze is needed. And since you want arcane damage nerfed, I don't see the problem with having CoC outside of being frost specced. Seriously, ALL that needs to be done about mages is add more survivability. The 30% flat damage reduce you suggest would take care of arcane burst. 2 minute cd trinkets would take care of the blanket cs if it's as gamebreaking as you say it is (it isn't).



Also you forgot to remove "counterspell is now learned at level 32". I mean, do you just want mages to be frostbolt/fireball turrets you don't have to care about on your healer?



Less burst and more utility spells at 19 is the ideal you should aim for.

 

[Kore nametooshort]

What is it with you and trying to reduce the skillcap? CoC is completely fine, mage control doesn't need nerfing AT ALL. You do realize how terrible mana shield is right? It cannot make up for the loss of CoC. Running as frost is all about control, and every freeze is needed. And since you want arcane damage nerfed, I don't see the problem with having CoC outside of being frost specced. Seriously, ALL that needs to be done about mages is add more survivability. The 30% flat damage reduce you suggest would take care of arcane burst. 2 minute cd trinkets would take care of the blanket cs if it's as gamebreaking as you say it is (it isn't).



Also you forgot to remove "counterspell is now learned at level 32". I mean, do you just want mages to be frostbolt/fireball turrets you don't have to care about on your healer?

I would argue that forcing mages to cast frostbolt strategically takes more skill than snaring a whole group every 15 seconds. Take a situation where you have a warrior and a mage. In any spec the mage has the tools to get away from the warrior without CoC: charge>nova>Fbolt>intercept>blink>Fbolt and the mage is away. I'm really not trying to nerf mages into the ground, im 6/12 agm on my mage atm and fully intend to enjoy playing it, but I want the bracket to be fixed so I'm giving it all serious consideration. I understand what you're saying about CS, trinkets, 30% surv buff etc but atm im inclined to keep it out but i am giving it seious thought. And mana shield isnt crap, it sheilds about 200 damage every 12 seconds, nice but not OP.

 

[soggy]

Kore, i still dont agree about nerfing ret, prots damage should be nerfed substantially along with exo though. Your suggestions for feral are there because you yourself play a druid, as i said get a jeweled fishing pull and hit for 1k. CS should be 4 sec lockout. I dont like the idea of 30% overall reduction, i think that being an fc in that environment would be too ez. Hunter nerfs look good,warriors IMO deserve a buff, they have been nerfed hard since classic.Levelers? who cares about those levelers? If you are a real twink you should be willing to get an 85 and get boas, if not then ur just a lazy hobo who says woe is me woe woe. GET OVER IT.

 

[AkAPatriot]

I like how you snuck "Give back arena skirmishes" in there



Tip: I wouldn't even mention the word twink if i was to show this to blizzard.



Nicely done tho!

 

[chíll]

yup. use "experienced user of the 15-19 bracket".. blizzard tends to hate everything called twinks

 

[Kore nametooshort]

Kore, i still dont agree about nerfing ret, prots damage should be nerfed substantially along with exo though.

Ret burst and dps is way too high, see for yourself in he re http://www.twinkinfo.com/forums/15-19-bracket/17603-help-balance-19s-wtb-recount-data.html

If ret mobility is increased then their damage will get too high

Your suggestions for feral are there because you yourself play a druid, as i said get a jeweled fishing pull and hit for 1k.

Im not a fan of feral tbh, resto 4 life. Jeweled Fishing pole is broken, it shouldnt be usable in such a manner.

CS should be 4 sec lockout.

This would not be viable from blizzards PoV

I dont like the idea of 30% overall reduction, i think that being an fc in that environment would be too ez.

Offense vs defense sizes would adapt to fit the bill. With the nerf to heals there should be enough balance to see it work.

warriors IMO deserve a buff, they have been nerfed hard since classic.

I think that the buffs i have suggested will make warriors into a fine class. The nerfs are there to compensate for the extremes of the buffs. Rest assured that its a net buff

Levelers? who cares about those levelers? If you are a real twink you should be willing to get an 85 and get boas, if not then ur just a lazy hobo who says woe is me woe woe. GET OVER IT.

That will hardly win blizzard over. We need to convince that their precious levelers are suffering.

I like how you snuck "Give back arena skirmishes" in there



Tip: I wouldn't even mention the word twink if i was to show this to blizzard.



Nicely done tho!

yup. use "experienced user of the 15-19 bracket".. blizzard tends to hate everything called twinks

I think it would be nigh on impossible for me to hide the fact. Im trusting that blizzard will remain objective enough to see past that and to see that we really know what we're talking about here.