Hi, Im Khaos and I have a message

[Drayner]

This.

The ''elitists'' have given competitive games/premades/drama which has increased activity as a whole. ''No'' elitists in the bracket, or how some of you put them as ''douchebags'' equals an uncompetitive bracket that no one wants to play. The competive nature i.e people shit talking each other is a faster epidemic towards a competitive atmosphere then ''lets all live in a fairy wonderland with Unicorns skipping around and be nice to everyone''. 19s have never worked like that and can't strive without that ''competitive nature vibe''.

I disagree... this is not the way the 19 bracket has always been. I will agree that it has evolved into this, but this is not the way it's always been. There were days in multiple battlegroups where rival twinks went to the bg forums and showed good sportmanship, they would say GG instead of, "you fuckers only won because you had more healers".

Being the best allows for bragging rights, Brag away...Great players deserve the praise they get. They do not though get the right to put down other players.

The thing about this is that some of the players are not the best. Some of the players are equal or worse than some of the players they go after. Often times it's a subpar player that appears better only because they run with guildies, basically... they put themselves in the best situation possible. There is nothing wrong with that, but that same player pugs into a game and can't be carried by heals or peels, they rage and afk. They show up on the other faction in the same game and spend 10 minutes camping the same "noobs" they raged at before afking.

 

[Hand of the King]

Since you claim that 90% of the people from TL/SR are elitist, here I will prove you wrong with evidence.



Your definition of elitist:

TL/SR and other Elitist Alike- I respect all of you as players, every single one of you play the game well and with a high skill level, yet with this comes, like I said above, a sense of entitlement that you all feel like because of your skill level you feel like you can be rude and disrespectful to other players. Is there anything I can do about this? No, other than point out the pure doucheiness of this it is up to you all to realize what kind of impact this makes.

I have bolded the names that truly do fit your definition of elitist.







TL (US guild roster)



Jetlife- No, great player but doesn’t go around on forums and in-game talking shit and being rude like your definition of ‘elitist’. Definitely not a douche and he has stated he tries to avoid being a part of the 19 twink drama.



Nettiebay- Great player but never talks shit. Pretty quiet and doesn’t really even have a forum presence and rarely even talks in-game.



Twiggi-Not really relevant anymore, may have been elitist in the past although definitely not elitist by your definition. She posted like once in the last half year and it was about de-leveling twinks. Not rude or disrespectful and can be pretty helpful.



Rythemix- He’s a nice guy and doesn’t fit your definition of elitist.



Hajima- Another nice guy and a definite no.



Arkant- Smartest guy on TI and has the most intensive knowledge about the bracket in general. Very helpful and although he may point out someone’s flaws, he definitely doesn’t do it in a rude or disrespectful way.



Irriterende/Imnot/Reece- Nice guy and doesn’t fit your definition of elitist.



Arudno- Basically the same as Reece.



Vianco- Sure, he fits your definition of elitist although he has definitely slowed down.



Nicozy- No, and he’s a very nice guy.



Stubs- Yes.



Whosurdaddy- Absolutely not and I don’t even know if this guy has a TI account.



Ridwane- Debatable, but he doesn’t fit your definition. He’s a very nice guy.





SR



Melseadys- Nope.



Slique- Nope. Hardly even posts on forums and definitely isn’t rude/disrespectful in-game.



Lobstrosity- Very nice guy. A definite no.



Youredead- Possibly the nicest person in the bracket. I can’t imagine her ever talking shit or being rude.



Agonist- Yes.



Ko- Isn’t going around being rude and disrespectful to other players who aren’t as good.



Bam- The guy’s done with WoW for good and it’s not like he was elitist anyways.



Yowza- Sure.



Bakked- Nope. Nice guy.



Dasfizzla- No. Another very nice guy here.



Dorigon- Debatable. He’s much more of a troll than an elitist going off of your definition of elitist, so we’re gonna go with a no.



Silin- Nope, not by your definition.



Clap- No.



Curley- Very debatable because he hasn’t been rude or talked shit for a while, but I’ll give you a yes because of his past.



Confident (warrior)- No.



Abigail- Very nice guy.



Pizza- Although many may call him elitist, he isn’t by your definition because he isn’t rude/disrespectful to others.

Grizzlefoot- No.



Cammarata- Sure.





So after calculating the % that truly are elitist by your definition with actual evidence instead of false claims, the % we get is 19% (6/31). So it’s safe to say that you were off by a lot.



Like Nicozy said,

If you are trying to make some benevolent point about elitism then you should not bunch a group of individuals who happen to play under one guildname together like a single organism, to label them all as douches is also crossing the line and you just make yourself look silly.

It seems like you have mistaken being elitist with being skilled, although your definition of elitist says otherwise.



If the point that you were trying to bring across was that 90% of the players in the top guilds are skilled, then your point would be very accurate. Unfortunately this is not the case.







And to Mocha,

Could you imagine if we didn't play boomies just because they were ridiculously op?

Umm..? As of Patch 5.4 Boomkins definitely ‘ridiculously OP’ and not that many people play them. If anything, hunters are the class that is ‘ridiculously OP’. The only Boomkins that were active in the most recent spur of games were:



Pizza

Agonist

Owlasaurus

Fums

Axiqt (not even entirely sure on this one)



Vianco (Played a little bit, but not nearly enough to make an impact with his Subscription being down for a majority of the time, playing EU more than US, and having limited queueing time due to living in EU instead of US.

Could you imagine if we played healers in attempt to counter the crazy op dps classes?

The number of healers wasn’t too much of a problem. The problem was the insane amount of rogues on both sides taking up spots from potential healers and ranged DPS and not contributing much to their team. And you happen to be a part of this category.

Could you imagine if we posted with respect towards other members?

Yes, and it would result in very boring forums. Even threads like these where people are disagreeing and Khaos calling out innocent people generates activity and gives people a reason to post on the forums.











-Hand of the King

 

[Khaos]

This.

The ''elitists'' have given competitive games/premades/drama which has increased activity as a whole. ''No'' elitists in the bracket, or how some of you put them as ''douchebags'' equals an uncompetitive bracket that no one wants to play. The competive nature i.e people shit talking each other is a faster epidemic towards a competitive atmosphere then ''lets all live in a fairy wonderland with Unicorns skipping around and be nice to everyone''. 19s have never worked like that and can't strive without that ''competitive nature vibe''.

Ago, let me get this clear once again. There is a HUGE difference between being competitive and shit talking like-minded individuals and just being down right rude. The fun nature of shit-talking is a huge part of a game, but no one wants it to be a constant thing. Just like the old saying goes, Im laughing with you, not at you.

I will make examples of each

Shit-Talking
I'm at a bar all night, as the bar is closing up after a long night of fun and drinking I give a guy shit for not finishing his beer. We both laugh and go on our way.

Being Rude
I'm at a bar all night and as the night goes on I continue to give a guy shit for ordering mixed drinks with sugar in it, calling it less manly. The guy gets pissed and most likely will not be coming back.

You are only getting down on people who happen to play in competitive guilds, there is no mention of all the bad players and how equal their behavior and rudeness is. So yes you are in fact singling out the stronger players and claiming that they are all alike, that they are all douchebags and rude elitists while in fact it is just as prevalent if not more among the lower caliber players.

"A guild is a group of players who support one another, if they do not agree/support the actions of the 90% of the other guild then why be a part of it." Look right there, you are claiming that 90% of the top guilds are elitist which in your mind equates to being rude and a douchebag. Either your view of elitism is severely skewed or you are once again putting people together as a single organism.
And I think you fail to understand why the people are in said guild and underestimate the amount of players that constantly stream in asking to join the top guilds, there are constant requests from new twinks to join said guilds so they must be doing something right?

"So in no way, just because people are more skilled in a game, do they have the right to be disrespectful to fellow twinks." WHERE HAVE I SAID THAT?! I say the issue is not with how skilled a person is, he can be Michael Jordan or your 5 ft 2 Malaysian guy who has never held a basketball before, both persons can be a "douchebag" yet you ONLY concern yourself with the top.

Also a quick comment on your point about encouraging "fun" games, this is often where stronger players and weaker ones collide as 1 group wants to have competitive games where you actually have to play close to top of your own level, where you can feel improvement, while 1 group wants to be able to parade in midfield showing off the latest transmog gear while smelling the flowers, shunning all thoughts about effective strategy's and instead go back to memory land of patch(insert whatever vanilla,tbc or wotlk patch) where you could do magical O and D or wear fishing hat as a rogue.

Let me get this straight? You are stating that since I am not pointing out the bad players who are rude my whole arguement is invalid?

There is a reason why i am not referencing those rude players who are not that skilled in game. That is because they have no respect on any front, people do not look up to them or ask them for tips. People do not take them seriously and to be honest they are far between, most of the players that are actively posting that are rude have the skill to back it up. Even then when a skilled player being rude and disrespectful is so much more harsh as a player tries to get better to just get told "Your Bad".

You say these guilds are doing something right because they are getting constant requests to join said guilds? yes they are doing something right, winning generally encourages people to want to join the guild, yet at the end of the day the people the elitists drive off is greater than the ones they bring in.

Continuing on your argument, people having different ideas of "fun" games, the more skilled players who want to challenge their skills in a like-minded engagement. Others feel fun as a not so serious game where they can go into a game with no sense of skill and show off their newest transmog.

I agree that everyone has a different of a fun game, my point on this is that people shouldnt be taking a game so seriously, if you have fun at the top end of skill, I suggest finding at least 19 others who agree with as much and organise premades, But if you notice that the lack of premades shows as much, most would rather have a fun pug from time to time where they don't have to worry about competing at the top level and expecting everyone else on their team to do the same.

I am going to clarify this one last time. I am talking to the Elitist people who troll, bash, and just be down right mean to other players. I lump guilds that have the biggest contributors of this as it is easier for me. As the guild tag holds the image of its members the guild tag gets the credit of what its members does. 90% of the members of those guild tags have a elitist attitude that drags down this bracket to the point where I have recommended 5 people in this last week to try 19 twinks, to have them tell me they would rather not deal with the trolls.

 

[Mocha]

I'd rather have activity than a "be the best or f*** off, you're garbage" attitude.

Reason being with active games constantly going on, the community has room to improve and become skilled which produces competitive game play, without disrespecting everyone in the community.
[MENTION=9433]Agonist[/MENTION] [MENTION=3652]Nicozy[/MENTION]

(tagged instead of quoted you... On my phone)

 

[Solipsist]

I will make examples of each

Shit-Talking
I'm at a bar all night, as the bar is closing up after a long night of fun and drinking I give a guy shit for not finishing his beer. We both laugh and go on our way.

I'm pretty sure that's not how shit talking works lol.

Being Rude
I'm at a bar all night and as the night goes on I continue to give a guy shit for ordering mixed drinks with sugar in it, calling it less manly. The guy gets pissed and most likely will not be coming back.

Didn't really understand this, sorry not to be rude :/

 

[Khaos]

Since you claim that 90% of the people from TL/SR are elitist, here I will prove you wrong with evidence.

~SNIP~

-Hand of the King

Thank you for pointing this out, Maybe those few peoples gave me the image that the whole guild is like that, and I apologize for lumping them into the mix, I am big enough to admit it when I am wrong and you have proven me wrong on the aspect that it is not 90% of the guild that does so.

But going back to my point that a guild has a image, those players add to those images and as they are actively posting on this forum that is what I reference. I will try to refrain from lumping them but that would be the reason for such actions.

At the end of the day though, people need to stop this elitist attitude that has driven players from this bracket. I really do not know why I continue to play in this bracket, alot of the players that kept me attached to it has moved on, Its just the Good Memories of old that keep this Nice guy trying.

 

[Drayner]

Jetlife- No, great player but doesn’t go around on forums and in-game talking shit and being rude like your definition of ‘elitist’. Definitely not a douche and he has stated he tries to avoid being a part of the 19 twink drama.

I don't make a habit of calling out individuals, but in my brief little return to the 19 bracket, this person was one of the rudest people in /bg I've seen in quite some time. To top off all the typing in /bg, he'd sit in stealth in games that weren't lost cause games and do nothing.

Umm..? As of Patch 5.4 Boomkins definitely ‘ridiculously OP’ and not that many people play them. If anything, hunters are the class that is ‘ridiculously OP’.

I think he might be referring to the timeframe where all the hunters put their hunters down and rolled boomkins. Some point last year, I was in a game and It was me on priest, a rogue, 2 pallies, a mage, and the rest of the 20 players were druids.

 

[Solipsist]

I think he might be referring to the timeframe where all the hunters put their hunters down and rolled boomkins. Some point last year, I was in a game and It was me on priest, a rogue, 2 pallies, a mage, and the rest of the 20 players were druids.

Sounds like he may be lost in the past.

 

[Trialdruid]

I disagree... this is not the way the 19 bracket has always been. I will agree that it has evolved into this, but this is not the way it's always been. There were days in multiple battlegroups where rival twinks went to the bg forums and showed good sportmanship, they would say GG instead of, "you fuckers only won because you had more healers".

I dunno how it was in US but this was some what truer in EU than it is nowadays, yes not everyone acted well back in the days but at least the atmosphere was way less negative and respectful despite your origions & level of play, also people were much more original with basicly everything and made it work instead of just trying to do what everyone else is doing, like huge diff between ppl used not strafe and then they started to strafe, people used to know something else but frag each other in mid for 20 minutes to go draw etc

 

[Sketchbag]

hurry up i just read all of that and want more

 

[Drayner]

hurry up i just read all of that and want more

It will heat up soon.
I am withdrawing from this battle now though. I need to get my 10 arena wins in for the week before all the other noobs stop queuing.

 

[Solipsist]

Ago, let me get this clear once again. There is a HUGE difference between being competitive and shit talking like-minded individuals and just being down right rude. The fun nature of shit-talking is a huge part of a game, but no one wants it to be a constant thing. Just like the old saying goes, Im laughing with you, not at you.

I will make examples of each

Shit-Talking
I'm at a bar all night, as the bar is closing up after a long night of fun and drinking I give a guy shit for not finishing his beer. We both laugh and go on our way.

Being Rude
I'm at a bar all night and as the night goes on I continue to give a guy shit for ordering mixed drinks with sugar in it, calling it less manly. The guy gets pissed and most likely will not be coming back.

You mean this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_DA-0S4KLA

 

[Superstylin]

This thread has turned into a disaster, seems like it is split between two sides. There is truth to both sides though.

The 19 bracket does need competitive players (competition is key), but it does not need players discouraging newer players to 'GTFO' or 'go back to 24's scrub'. Back in the glory days of 19's, there was good players AND bad players. They both existed, and we accepted it. When the bracket was popular, having less skilled players was part of the game. That is when you know the bracket is starting to grow, when NEW players start to que. People don't instantly start as skilled as someone who has been playing this bracket for years, it takes time. Raging and trash talking the new players will not get them to play more, and will most likely result in them deleting the char and not queing up again.

Not to say that having n00bs in the battlegrounds is a good thing, but at this point I would rather have pops 7 days a week than 2. This bracket will only grow if new people join, and creating an elitist atmosphere will do nothing to help. I must make this clear, however, that I am not putting down elitists or competitive players. We NEED them, but we also need the casual gamer. Elitists and competitive players bring an edge to the bracket, and give something for players to work towards. This competition is what we are all looking for, but this needs to be achieved in good sport.

Being a supreme elitist at 19's, calling everyone baddies, and trash talking n00bs, is like being the tallest midget. Sure, you're the tallest midget, but what of it. It doesn't matter. Being a strong, competitive player in the 19 bracket, however, brings a competitive atmosphere to the bracket that encourages more players to play smarter and improve their game.

Also, naming names and calling people out on this thread does not help. People play this game differently, end of story. We just need to find a way to coexist. The thing we all have in common though, is that we all enjoy the 19 bracket, or have at one point in time. I believe It's safe to say that something we all would want in this bracket, is to see ques popping everyday just like the old days. Hopefully this will happen in the future, but as of now we need to create the environment that would enable the growth, rather than squash it, claiming there is only room for elitists.

tl;dr be nice but also competitive

 

[Solipsist]

This thread has turned into a disaster, seems like it is split between two sides. There is truth to both sides though.

The 19 bracket does need competitive players (competition is key), but it does not need players discouraging newer players to 'GTFO' or 'go back to 24's scrub'. Back in the glory days of 19's, there was good players AND bad players. They both existed, and we accepted it. When the bracket was popular, having less skilled players was part of the game. That is when you know the bracket is starting to grow, when NEW players start to que. People don't instantly start as skilled as someone who has been playing this bracket for years, it takes time. Raging and trash talking the new players will not get them to play more, and will most likely result in them deleting the char and not queing up again.

Not to say that having n00bs in the battlegrounds is a good thing, but at this point I would rather have pops 7 days a week than 2. This bracket will only grow if new people join, and creating an elitist atmosphere will do nothing to help. I must make this clear, however, that I am not putting down elitists or competitive players. We NEED them, but we also need the casual gamer. Elitists and competitive players bring an edge to the bracket, and give something for players to work towards. This competition is what we are all looking for, but this needs to be achieved in good sport.

Being a supreme elitist at 19's, calling everyone baddies, and trash talking n00bs, is like being the tallest midget. Sure, you're the tallest midget, but what of it. It doesn't matter. Being a strong, competitive player in the 19 bracket, however, brings a competitive atmosphere to the bracket that encourages more players to play smarter and improve their game.

Also, naming names and calling people out on this thread does not help. People play this game differently, end of story. We just need to find a way to coexist. The thing we all have in common though, is that we all enjoy the 19 bracket, or have at one point in time. I believe It's safe to say that something we all would want in this bracket, is to see ques popping everyday just like the old days. Hopefully this will happen in the future, but as of now we need to create the environment that would enable the growth, rather than squash it, claiming there is only room for elitists.

tl;dr be nice but also competitive

Mostly agree. Will reply fully when I get back later.

 

[Upswag]

ITT: Adults explaining how normal people act to teenagers. Hint: Teenagers don't listen. Every fucking generation.... I tell you.

 

[Jadyne]

Respect is earned, alot of people feel that respect is earned from being the best, when in fact respect is earned by showing respect.

Being the best allows for bragging rights, Brag away...Great players deserve the praise they get. They do not though get the right to put down other players.

Ah, now THAT is very well said.

As for your original post, I think it's a nice sentiment, and I agree with it, but posting it is not going to accomplish it. Respect, positivity, etc, you have to build that up slowly over time and repetition. Every moment of negativity is an opportunity to turn it to positivity, and every time you ignore or allow trolls to troll, it sets you back days, weeks, months.

What I'm saying is if you guys really want to shape the community into something else, it takes work. It's a grind. It took me a year of trolling Bloodlust forums to shape it into the nicest battleground forum in WotLK. I think it took me around 3-6 months just to establish my reputation, and it took constant maintenance. I took a beating along the way, but I also was working mostly solo. If a group of you guys got together and came to an agreement, the load could be distributed, and maybe then something good could happen.

Here's what I mean by it taking work:


In summary: we can have a better community, but nice sentiments don't make that happen. You have to work at it every single day.

 

[saxxon]

its got nothing to do with elitism, twinks just suck post wrath, play a vanilla/private realm there's plenty of shit talk there and competitive warsong

 

[Dorigon]

nobody wants to read these obnoxiously long posts

especially when they are long just for the sake of being long - have no actual effect on the bracket or anything else

 

[Jadyne]

nobody wants to read these obnoxiously long posts

especially when they are long just for the sake of being long - have no actual effect on the bracket or anything else

Good point, especially with so many people posting so quickly. I'm finding I simply don't have the time to read everything. I'm having to skim. =/

I suppose we could just ignore the people who are obviously just being obnoxious?

 

[saxxon]

wanna fix 19? make skirmish come back, bracket fixed.