BIS fc and why

[AlbinoCow]

Anyone arguing in favor of Protection Paladins or Guardian Druids apparently never played a premade and therefore doesn't have a clear idea about how a premade and its rules look like.

Protection Paladins are absolutely awful for premade FCing. They gain zero passive mitigation, they have no reliable mobility whatsoever, LoH doesn't require you to be the person carrying the flag and the CC they have in HoJ and AS doesn't make up for their more than lackluster kit. They also need to stand still to produce any kind of significant healing which is not acceptable for a flag carrier.

Guardian Druids have the highest mobility out of all tank specs, decent mitigation, some healing in Rejuvenation and roots. Their mitigation gets outclassed by warriors. Their healing is not significant enough to make a difference when under pressure. Your CC, again, doesn't require you to be the actual FC. The mobility can come in handy, however in a premade situation with a warrior FC you simply send your resto druid / boomkin to pick up the flag, once you are in mid with your team your mobility will be irrelevant. All the aforementioned perks require you to shift out of bear form, losing your mitigation entirely. Those reasons alone are already enough to pick a warrior over a druid, the biggest downside however is a part of the common premade rules: A maximum of two of one class. You gain nothing from using a druid FC that would justify dropping either a boomkin or a resto druid.

Protection Warriors have the highest mitigation in the bracket, they have some mobility in Charge and their other two specs are entirely useless for premade purposes. They can also be Goblins which is the best horde race for flag carriers. Warriors are by far your best choice.

Also, I saw someone complain about the implication that flag carriers would basically afk for almost the entire game, making their CC and mobility useless. That is exactly what FCs are supposed to do. They sit between thirty and fourty yards behind their healers to make it as hard as possible for the other team to swap to them, and to make them cover as much as ground possible when trying to push in. When that happens the only role your flag carrier has is to absorb as much damage as possible, LoS if available and watch his healers position.
In most cases they don't even pick the flags up themselves, they can't if the opposing team is not pushed back into their own graveyard and has atleast one decent hunter. They will usually have a druid bring them the flag, as mentioned before.

TL;DR: A flag carrier's job is to be able to take a beating, Protection Warrior does it best with the least downsides.

Im pretty sure the role of a fc is to not take a beating. If u win a game and ur fc is untouched, that's a good thing isn't it? You could send a druid to go get the flag, but then ur mid team will be weaker. Rather than sacrificing a boomkin or resto druid, you can keep all ur dps and healers in mid while a guardian druid grabs the flag. I must agree that running a guardian druid can restrict ur comp, but I believe wild charging above gy, and other possibilities in ramp to roof area, more than makes up for it. Also while getting caught out of bear form is a noobish thing to do in a premade, u still maintain the same amount of spell dmg mitigation, and ur physical dmg mitigation is roughly the same as a hpally. Wild charge can be used to mitigate an un-definite amount of dmg and even take u from being in the worst position as a fc, to the best one

 

[Kincaide]

In my opinion, the entire question is flawed. If teams are playing their strategy right, then you never get into a situation where both teams have bunkered down and try to outlast each other. You stop the EFC before they can get across mid to their own house. If you've managed to let a flag runner and his entire support team get in your house, back out, and across mid without stopping them, you've already lost.

So if both teams are really playing like they should, and not allowing a controlling force to cross mid in the first place, then the real question becomes what class is best suited to survive crossing mid under full onslaught while his teammates are also consumed with stopping the EFC. I'll let you guys decide that one.

 

[clarification]

Im pretty sure the role of a fc is to not take a beating. If u win a game and ur fc is untouched, that's a good thing isn't it? You could send a druid to go get the flag, but then ur mid team will be weaker. Rather than sacrificing a boomkin or resto druid, you can keep all ur dps and healers in mid while a guardian druid grabs the flag. I must agree that running a guardian druid can restrict ur comp, but I believe wild charging above gy, and other possibilities in ramp to roof area, more than makes up for it. Also while getting caught out of bear form is a noobish thing to do in a premade, u still maintain the same amount of spell dmg mitigation, and ur physical dmg mitigation is roughly the same as a hpally. Wild charge can be used to mitigate an un-definite amount of dmg and even take u from being in the worst position as a fc, to the best one

No, your teams job is to not let your flag carrier take a beating. If that fails it is your FC's job to be able to take that beating.

By picking the guardian druid you sacrifice a boomkin or resto druid, too. Your team should be able to not get wiped entirely for a minute while your druid grabs the flag.

Premades do not take place at roof or ramp. The flag carrier will spend the majority of the game in mid behind their team instead of doing fancy jumps.

Comparing a premade FC's mitigation to that of a holy paladin isn't the smartest thing to do, their mitigation is terrible.

Using Wild Charge to mitigate "un-definite" amounts of damage requires you to be between your team and the opponents which makes me wonder how you got there. I also can not think of a single situation in a premade setting where Wild Charge would take you from the worst position to the best one.

In my opinion, the entire question is flawed. If teams are playing their strategy right, then you never get into a situation where both teams have bunkered down and try to outlast each other. You stop the EFC before they can get across mid to their own house. If you've managed to let a flag runner and his entire support team get in your house, back out, and across mid without stopping them, you've already lost.

So if both teams are really playing like they should, and not allowing a controlling force to cross mid in the first place, then the real question becomes what class is best suited to survive crossing mid under full onslaught while his teammates are also consumed with stopping the EFC. I'll let you guys decide that one.

Now this makes me wonder how many serious premades you have been part of.

 

[Kincaide]

Now this makes me wonder how many serious premades you have been part of.

Your approval means nothing to me, Join Date Nov 2013.

 

[Zatox]

Your approval means nothing to me, Join Date Nov 2013.

By that logic, you should approve of my logic: Hes right in every aspect.

 

[clarification]

Your approval means nothing to me, Join Date Nov 2013.

Do people from '11 think they are oldschool these days?

 

[Lil]

Your approval means nothing to me, Join Date Nov 2013.

Common kin.. Don't stoop to this Take your own advice you always give me.. Ignore em since he's obviously just a ban evading troll and will be banned soon enough.

People will have whatever opinion they want on this subject and as you can see from the late posts on this thread anyone who doesn't say prot war is a nub and will proceed to be insulted. I'm happy saying Gdruid and I'm not about to change my mind.

 

[clarification]

Common kin.. Don't stoop to this Take your own advice you always give me.. Ignore em since he's obviously just a ban evading troll and will be banned soon enough.

People will have whatever opinion they want on this subject and as you can see from the late posts on this thread anyone who doesn't say prot war is a nub and will proceed to be insulted. I'm happy saying Gdruid and I'm not about to change my mind.

No need to be all defensive. People who argue in favor of guardian druids and protection paladins simply have a flawed impression of the current premade meta which is entirely unrelated to them being "nubs" or extremely skilled players.

 

[Kincaide]

By that logic, you should approve of my logic: Hes right in every aspect.

Let's keep something straight. As far as what's being discussed--who makes the better flag-sitter in the case that it's come down to a two-EFC standoff--I agree 100% with him and those who say warrior is best. I was that warrior, after all.

My point, which you're all welcome to agree with or not, is that letting a game get to the point where it's a two-EFC standoff isn't the best gameplay to begin with. Pugs run past each other as groups and get into EFC standoffs. Good teams control the field from the outset until a runner can slip in and cap under controlled conditions.

So if you want to have a conversation of who makes the best flag-sitter when you've allowed the game to devolve into a two-EFC standoff, by all means go ahead. I'm just interjecting that that isn't the ideal strategy. Kahr, I know you know this to be true.

 

[AlbinoCow]

No, your teams job is to not let your flag carrier take a beating. If that fails it is your FC's job to be able to take that beating.

By picking the guardian druid you sacrifice a boomkin or resto druid, too. Your team should be able to not get wiped entirely for a minute while your druid grabs the flag.

Premades do not take place at roof or ramp. The flag carrier will spend the majority of the game in mid behind their team instead of doing fancy jumps.

Comparing a premade FC's mitigation to that of a holy paladin isn't the smartest thing to do, their mitigation is terrible.

Using Wild Charge to mitigate "un-definite" amounts of damage requires you to be between your team and the opponents which makes me wonder how you got there. I also can not think of a single situation in a premade setting where Wild Charge would take you from the worst position to the best one.


Now this makes me wonder how many serious premades you have been part of.

I did type ramp TO roof, which is the most ideal spot to turtle.
A guardian druid would be wild charging a teammate's pet to reach above his/her own gy, this is super essential if u are not winning mid-clash. Seeing as, for the enemy team to pressure u, they would need to flank u by going up ramp. If they only sent 1-2 ppl then ur team should beable to push out of gy, and u can jump back down. Leaving the 1-2 backdoor enemy players by themselves, they could try to push into ur 10 ppl, but they wont down u. A warrior fc would be stuck at gy, having his/her team most likely pushed past gy, if they even survive. U can read a post I made on pg 4 which includes some of the points I had to reiterate for u.

 

[Stamm]

As sad as it is, I think it's a fair estimate to say about 60% of the people in this thread don't have sound experience to back up their statements, and are just theorycrafting, or making up their own situations.

The question was in a premade. Not pugging. Tanks can take more dmg. This restricts f2p to 3 viable premade choices, and once you remove protadin because it's more well rounded than defensively geared, gdruid and warrior are the only options. Either one is viable, and I have to give the constant advantage to warrior, but if you're team knows certain "plays" I guess you could call them, then gdruids can hop from floor to roof and run all over base buying time for the next juke.

 

[Zatox]

Let's keep something straight. As far as what's being discussed--who makes the better flag-sitter in the case that it's come down to a two-EFC standoff--I agree 100% with him and those who say warrior is best. I was that warrior, after all.

My point, which you're all welcome to agree with or not, is that letting a game get to the point where it's a two-EFC standoff isn't the best gameplay to begin with. Pugs run past each other as groups and get into EFC standoffs. Good teams control the field from the outset until a runner can slip in and cap under controlled conditions.

So if you want to have a conversation of who makes the best flag-sitter when you've allowed the game to devolve into a two-EFC standoff, by all means go ahead. I'm just interjecting that that isn't the ideal strategy. Kahr, I know you know this to be true.

It is the best strategy, not a very fun one, but its true. If one team trys to split into O and D while one stays in a cohesive unit, the split teams offense Will get mowed down in 30 seconds, with the other team losing no one and pushing on To mow the opposing defense.

 

[Bop]

From an RBG perspective, the ideal scenario is not to even have your FC in the flag room. You should start the game with 8 members of your team clashing mid in an attempt to prevent the EFC from crossing, while a healer and your FC go for flag.

Flag Carry maps come down to winning team fights in max level rbgs, and the same principles apply for 20 premades. The reason you have your FC with the group is 2-fold:

1. He has the added protection of your (3, ideally) healers, and can even assist in fights. Note that your FC should not assist if he has brutality stacks, as the risks of heavy burst outweigh any damage he can provide.

2. You can afford to. The only setback to having your FC with the main group is that an enemy can repick in the event of their team losing possession of your flag. However if each member of your team is acting efficiently and is contributing damage, cc, and healing where it is needed in fights, then having even 1 member of their team waiting in your flag room should result in them losing team fights.

It's all about efficiency and winning clashes. For that reason, I think any of the tank classes at 20 could have a place in a RBG.

Protection Paladins: Obviously a weaker choice in terms of mitigation, but the damage and cc from a Prot pally is basically adding in another DPS that the enemy team will not have. At the same time, this frees up one of your healers from HAVING to be a holy pally (HoJ and LoH). This means you can take another healing class that provides additional mechanics or healing to your teamfights. (Note: I would only take Prot Paladins in specific scenarios, since you are essentially gambling that your team fight will smash theirs before Brutality stacks get up there. Protadin + Brutality Stacks = Sad Team).

Guardian Druid: The in-between option when compared to the Protection classes. Decent damage and CC output coupled with strong mitigations would make Guardians extremely formiddable. Especially considering the wild charge mechanics and their defense capabilities, Guardian Druids could be extremely difficult to take down, even with high brutality stacks.

Protection Warriors: Far and above the best flat damage mitigaters, Prot Warriors have high mobility, decent burst, and incredible damage reduction. Best used with a team that wants to play safe around their GY until brutality stacks increase to 5+. If Protadins are the early game FC, then Prot Warriors are the late-game equivalent.

I wouldn't put a healer class as an FC, regardless of their high mobility. In premades, or even RBG style games, it is extremely unlikely that you'll be able to blitz a flag cap before their FC is prevented from getting yours. And in a waiting game, healers simply fall off extremely quickly.

Tl;Dr -
1. Protadin: early game EFC, goes for winning teamfights
2. Guardian: Mix of damage and mitigation.
3. Prot Warrior: Late game EFC, waits for brutality stacks.

- FC should be with team at all times
- Early Game, you should try to prevent EFC from getting your flag by teamfighting at the mid.

 

[VCheetah]

I chose Resto Druid

Reason being I play Frost Mage all the time. Restos are able to heal + get away with my peels. I just like their high speed and HoT, but reading about the high hp/less damage taken classes, makes me see how helpful that is during these times of f2p gameplay. So IDC who carries the flag, 2k hp and up your gettin my peels. I don't discriminate.

 

[Arberian021]

-Prot warrior isn't far behind in armor.
-Reduces all damage by 25% and 6% less chance to be struck by a critical hit.
-Has charge which works after stacks kick in at which point travel form is useless.
-This is for a premade so you will have healers so thats no problem. Not to mention Guardian becomes very squishy when using rejuv or travel form.
-Stamina increased by 15%
-Irrelevant.

Prot warrior > Guardian Druid.

No healing ability to support himself --> Victory Rush sucks at healing
Guardian Druid got Talents to move even faster than the warrior.
-- And about the stamina : warrior has stamina increased by 15 while guardian druid has stamina increased by 20%.

 

[Rollop]

Prot warriors have -25% damage from all sources as a passive. Prot paladins have no such passive. Your last sentence really amuses me - carrying a flag is a warrior's only place on the field in this patch.

Never said they did. This is what i was comparing, Thunder Clap - Spell - World of WarcraftHammer of the Righteous - Spell - World of Warcraft

Ofc this is all preference but to me, warriors at this level just dont have the tools to compete with other FCs. Regardless of the 25% damage decrease.

 

[Srs]

Best flag carrier is Riptides because he don't give a fuck if shaman is BiS or not.

 

[Goesid]

As sad as it is, I think it's a fair estimate to say about 60% of the people in this thread don't have sound experience to back up their statements, and are just theorycrafting, or making up their own situations.

The question was in a premade. Not pugging. Tanks can take more dmg. This restricts f2p to 3 viable premade choices, and once you remove protadin because it's more well rounded than defensively geared, gdruid and warrior are the only options. Either one is viable, and I have to give the constant advantage to warrior, but if you're team knows certain "plays" I guess you could call them, then gdruids can hop from floor to roof and run all over base buying time for the next.

You won't be in the base.

No healing ability to support himself --> Victory Rush sucks at healing
Guardian Druid got Talents to move even faster than the warrior.
-- And about the stamina : warrior has stamina increased by 15 while guardian druid has stamina increased by 20%.

If you leave form you will die, warrior won't use his heal but if he does it will be useful.

The higher stacks go the less stamina matter and the more migitation does. Travel form will also be useless at stacks.

Never said they did. This is what i was comparing, Thunder Clap - Spell - World of WarcraftHammer of the Righteous - Spell - World of Warcraft

Ofc this is all preference but to me, warriors at this level just dont have the tools to compete with other FCs. Regardless of the 25% damage decrease.

Quite the opposite.
They have the best tools to survive atm.


Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Bop]

Responding to Goesid:

I agree with you entirely in regards to Prot Warriors being disregarded by the two people you quote.

I would add that Guardian druids add more to team fights than Prot Warriors, and can use height - wild charge defensively extremely well (This applies to levels of GY as well as inside base, where they will almost never be).

I would like to add that Prot Paladins have been extremely underrated in this thread, but also that they are the weakest in terms of mitigation. However, the massive amount of damage they deal in team fights added in with their CC makes quite a difference if you can continuously wipe the enemy team.

Read my post above :3

 

[clarification]

I did type ramp TO roof, which is the most ideal spot to turtle.
A guardian druid would be wild charging a teammate's pet to reach above his/her own gy, this is super essential if u are not winning mid-clash. Seeing as, for the enemy team to pressure u, they would need to flank u by going up ramp. If they only sent 1-2 ppl then ur team should beable to push out of gy, and u can jump back down. Leaving the 1-2 backdoor enemy players by themselves, they could try to push into ur 10 ppl, but they wont down u. A warrior fc would be stuck at gy, having his/her team most likely pushed past gy, if they even survive. U can read a post I made on pg 4 which includes some of the points I had to reiterate for u.

Great, premades still don't take place at roof unless one team decides to pull back entirely for the last one or two minutes. You should not pick your flag carrier based on that.

A teammate's pet. What exactly stops the opposing team from oneshotting that pet?

They don't need to flank you, they will happily contain your team at the graveyard until they have enough stacks to global you.

If your entire strategy is based on turtling at your own graveyard you maybe shouldn't play premades. You will never win one this way.