10-19 2015 TC Discussion, Planning, Indiegogo

[Shamatix]

Hey could it be a possibility to be playing the turny on PTR? That way both EU and US players will have better ping as EU and US are combined, the RBG turny that were played ~1month ago were played on the PTR aswell for this reasoning and EU and US players can use their GFd 19 twinks instead of one of the regions has to make new twinks?

 

[artonkn]

Hey could it be a possibility to be playing the turny on PTR? That way both EU and US players will have better ping as EU and US are combined, the RBG turny that were played ~1month ago were played on the PTR aswell for this reasoning and EU and US players can use their GFd 19 twinks instead of one of the regions has to make new twinks?

PTR isn't always up right? And it's essentially beta for patches, could be full of many bugs. Not to mention often there are ways of getting high level gear on tinks, I remember there being a vendor selling 90-100 necks before. Additionally people are adapting to 6.1 (or whatever it'll be closer to the event) and it would cause complications on the PTR, for example a comp not having the ability they had before.

 

[Donteventrii]

Please provide feedback on whether you think having account sales so easily accessible and advertised hampers TC and twinking in general from going mainstream.

http://www.twinkinfo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64902

Tapatalked from a PACMAN 4.4 Note II

 

[Shamatix]

PTR isn't always up right? And it's essentially beta for patches, could be full of many bugs. Not to mention often there are ways of getting high level gear on tinks, I remember there being a vendor selling 90-100 necks before. Additionally people are adapting to 6.1 (or whatever it'll be closer to the event) and it would cause complications on the PTR, for example a comp not having the ability they had before.

While this is true people could just copy chars and not make changes to em

 

[Donteventrii]

GF gear should just be banned in general in what world does it promote an even playing field?

Tapatalked from a PACMAN 4.4 Note II

 

[Donteventrii]

because there is no gf gear at 19 that really makes that much of a difference unlike at 29 deadmans hand etc

Everything makes a difference on the margins. I agree that it is negligible. But in the interest of equal footing, it makes sense to limit it to gear currently available.

Tapatalked from a PACMAN 4.4 Note II

 

[Rusks]

u mean the tournament where ppl randomly disconnected every time they died?

Glad we don't have to worry about "texture healing" and shit for 19

 

[treess]

GF gear should just be banned in general in what world does it promote an even playing field?

Tapatalked from a PACMAN 4.4 Note II

There is nothing that is that game changing to matter enough to ban gear, if you were not a twink back then well you are out of luck then.

 

[Donteventrii]

There is nothing that is that game changing to matter enough to ban gear, if you were not a twink back then well you are out of luck then.

This is may be a difficult concept for those who have never taken calculus, but everything matters on the margins. That's why you see people factioning for gear only available on Horde or Alli. If it didn't matter, why would they do it? Because on the margins, everything matters.

Tapatalked from a PACMAN 4.4 Note II

 

[Superstylin]

This is may be a difficult concept for those who have never taken calculus, but everything matters on the margins. That's why you see people factioning for gear only available on Horde or Alli. If it didn't matter, why would they do it? Because on the margins, everything matters.

Tapatalked from a PACMAN 4.4 Note II

People faction to be BiS. People take pride in being BiS for twinks. As for how much it impacts gameplay, not so much. Skill > difference between non-gf'd gear and gf'd gear. It would be ridiculous to ban GF'd gear for the tourny, as it is what many twinks have spent many hours, gold and $$ to obtain. It is the name of the game, so deal with it.

 

[artonkn]

I would rather GF'd gear be banned to create an equal play platform. But it's too hard to enforce sadly.

 

[Donteventrii]

People faction to be BiS. People take pride in being BiS for twinks. As for how much it impacts gameplay, not so much. Skill > difference between non-gf'd gear and gf'd gear. It would be ridiculous to ban GF'd gear for the tourny, as it is what many twinks have spent many hours, gold and $$ to obtain. It is the name of the game, so deal with it.

People faction to be BiS. What does BiS mean? A marginal gear advantage over gear that is not BiS. They are one and the same. And if people are willing to pursue it with current gear, you can be sure BiS GF gear is marginally better than currently available BiS gear.

I agree that it is negligible in discussion of Skill vs Gear, but that's not what we're discussing. It is also irrelevant that people put extra effort to obtain GF gear. They can still use it in randoms, wargames, skirms. But for the purpose of an equitable tournament, I strongly suggest that [MENTION=18399]Myrm[/MENTION] consider the benefits of banning GF gear.

 

[MYT]

This was already discussed on BiS and agreed that GF'ed gear be allowed both from the perspective of impossible to enforce (without possibly requiring everyone to use add ons which he smartly wants to avoid), and also because it's the nature of twinks to have the best gear. Obviously if there were a completely broken item that people could wear that gave say 100 stamina or something like that it would be addressed (as well as easily detectable without add ons)....but there is no such item that will impact this cup.

The whole "equal footing" things get taken too far. Why not force every team to use same classes/specs and enforce a gear set on each class/spec so everyone is equal? Nobody would propose that...but it's down the same road as banning gear just because someone else can't get.

 

[Donteventrii]

This was already discussed on BiS and agreed that GF'ed gear be allowed both from the perspective of impossible to enforce (without possibly requiring everyone to use add ons which he smartly wants to avoid), and also because it's the nature of twinks to have the best gear. Obviously if there were a completely broken item that people could wear that gave say 100 stamina or something like that it would be addressed (as well as easily detectable without add ons)....but there is no such item that will impact this cup.

Is it possible to inspect while in spectator mode?

The whole "equal footing" things get taken too far. Why not force every team to use same classes/specs and enforce a gear set on each class/spec so everyone is equal? Nobody would propose that...but it's down the same road as banning gear just because someone else can't get.

This is a slippery slope fallacy that I will not entertain.

I already see users who are slightly discouraged that they will face a marginal uphill battle in gear. This discouragement alone should be persuasive enough to see the need for an equitable gear requirement.

 

[Superstylin]

People faction to be BiS. What does BiS mean? A marginal gear advantage over gear that is not BiS. They are one and the same. And if people are willing to pursue it with current gear, you can be sure BiS GF gear is marginally better than currently available BiS gear.

I agree that it is negligible in discussion of Skill vs Gear, but that's not what we're discussing. It is also irrelevant that people put extra effort to obtain GF gear. They can still use it in randoms, wargames, skirms. But for the purpose of an equitable tournament, I strongly suggest that [MENTION=18399]Myrm[/MENTION] consider the benefits of banning GF gear.

I see what you are getting at, but it is hard to draw the line on where to stop GF'd gear. Will all GF'd gear be banned? From jutebraid gloves to defias boots? Or just GF'd quest gear? If you were to ban all GF'd gear, people who spent 50k on the defias boots will be mad. If it is just questing gear and not GF'd boe gear, you are only favoring people who have the excess funds to purchase the expensive Gf'd boe gear.

Also, people have been practicing with certain sets that may include 1 or 2 pieces of GF'd gear. Do not forget that GF'd is not necessarily better, just different. You gain some stats but also lose out on others. As I said before, it would be incredibly unfair for people who have GF'd gear not to be able to use it. I know that this is a tournament, but if you remove GF'd gear you are essentially forcing everyone to run the exact same gear set. GF'd gear allows the variance.

 

[treess]

So I feel like the best way to describe it is how HB described it on BiS podcast, you arent going to want to play basketball in flip flops, but you dont need the $150 jordans to do great you can have a $50 pair of Adidas and still win at that point it comes down to skill more than GFd gear in my opinion.

 

[Donteventrii]

It is hard to draw the line on where to stop GF'd gear.

Approach it from a consequentialist perspective. What ends are we looking for? If it's equitability, then it's easy - anything not currently available to obtain in the current world. If it's to reward legacy twinks for their commitment to the bracket, then allow all GF gear.

As I said before, it would be incredibly unfair for people who have GF'd gear not to be able to use it. If you remove GF'd gear you are essentially forcing everyone to run the exact same gear set. GF'd gear allows the variance.

/boggle
More incredibly unfair than say Europeans or post-Cata twinks lack of ability to obtain that gear?
Variance? Variance doesn't come from the marginal stat changes. If it did, then your argument that GF gear is negligible doesn't hold water. Gear variance comes from enchant choices, and to a much lesser extent gear choices.

 

[Donteventrii]

So I feel like the best way to describe it is how HB described it on BiS podcast, you arent going to want to play basketball in flip flops, but you dont need the $150 jordans to do great you can have a $50 pair of Adidas and still win at that point it comes down to skill more than GFd gear in my opinion.

That describes a good mentality to look at randoms/wargames/skirms. But for the purposes of a tournament, it doesn't make sense. Can a pitcher pitch just fine without pine tar? Sure. But if pine tar gave zero advantage, it wouldn't be banned, as there would be no reason to use it.

 

[treess]

That describes a good mentality to look at randoms/wargames/skirms. But for the purposes of a tournament, it doesn't make sense. Can a pitcher pitch just fine without pine tar? Sure. But if pine tar gave zero advantage, it wouldn't be banned, as there would be no reason to use it.

the point is in my opinion 3 agi difference from having both rings from factions will not be game changing if you just get outplayed.

 

[Donteventrii]

the point is in my opinion 3 agi difference from having both rings from factions will not be game changing if you just get outplayed.

I'm not sure why skill continues to be brought up; it has no place in this discussion.

We are discussing the marginal advantage that GF gear provides. But more importantly,whether it's justified to allow it, in order to satiate GF legacy players, instead of achieving equability for all.

I've lit this straw-man up enough for one day.