Taeo
Grandfathered
But Rsham is like the second best healer lol. And rdruid is played for that sweet FC carrying and swiftmend / cenarion ward / ironbark. I think most rshams prob continued.
20 Twinking is really bad.
- Thread starter Krittykreme
- Start date
JadeFire
Worthless
Again, tho and I get that is always been an ego bruiser... it just depends on what time of day you play... right now its a ton of alliance whoevers shooting mostly 90% horde leveler teams... its always like that, every week.
Time of day > Premades > Gear > Class > Spec > Skill > Having fingers > Having toes to play with a special keyboard if you don't have fingers
Time of day > Premades > Gear > Class > Spec > Skill > Having fingers > Having toes to play with a special keyboard if you don't have fingers
Chops
Soccer Dad
they didnt. Excepting Rise, I cant think of a single prominent BFA Rsham that still plays (though I did see Acid playing ele recently) and you'd see 3-4 of them in a BG easily. Same with RDruid. I've seen a couple names from BFA intermittently but not anywhere near the numbers or consistency of BFA.
It's not that their primary healing/FCing ability diminished, its that it no longer also comes with the best DPS in the bracket.
nailed it
toskosa
Grandfathered
yes 100% agreed lol.
The majority of ppl in the bracket want to just own lvlers its time to come to terms with it, they will always play what gives them the best ability to do so. Very few ppl actually play this bracket and try to do new/interesting things. Very few ppl also play this bracket and are class fanatics in that they only play x class forever.
What I am trying to say is this bracket is just max lvl only scaled down so the fotm feels worse lol. Instead of having a larger player pool everything is smaller so everything is heightened even though its the same as max lvl really. Better geared players beating up players in worse gear is the biggest complaint on the wow forums since I started posting there in 2012.
Its a shame because wods scalling was a perfect middle ground but blizzard wanted to be and fresh so they changed it. Instead of going back to the wod system (best course of action) they went with what we have now. Its actually really stupid that they cant seem to admit they were wrong and go back to previous iterations of systems that worked fine ( more then fine really)
tldr bring back wod scalling.
Chops
Soccer Dad
IIRC this was the expac where gear scaled to your character level in BGs? So in twinking the BIS gear was a lot of very weird low ilvl items from entry zone quests that just happen to scale in insane ways once you entered instanced pvp?
That doesnt feel right to me. And it didnt at the time.
Im firmly on "Team Gear Should Matter In MMOs" and I absolutely think its right and good that (all other things being equal) better geared players beat worse geared players. And that high level characters should posses an advantage over low level characters. People whining that this affects pvp are (i think) misguided in their complaints. It should absolutely affect pvp and thats a feature of the genre, not a bug.
Where it seems like WOW struggles (at least at end game) is getting gear to people who have a wide variability in their time/ability to acquire said gear. If its too easy, people with a lot of time will feel like their progress is stalled fairly quick. If its too hard, people without much time will feel like they can never compete.
They dont need to bring back WOD scaling, they need to bring back the understanding that pvp is a sideshow, a gimmick, a time waster in a game built around a pve raiding experience.
toskosa
Grandfathered
At the time I can get your argument here, but with socket gear and socket bfa items gear would still matter with this system.
Same just I want to move it from higher ilvl gear to stat and secondary based advantages.
Did we not do the same thing in bfa though? with scaled items from elewyn forest? Combat knife and that spear? Lets not forget that stupid staff from the murlocs in west fall ? With the way things are right now I feel like wod scalling would be really good, considering everything scales up to your current level anyway so nothing is tech low level niche gear.
Another solution is to simply use spell ranks to deal with things.
Chops
Soccer Dad
well thats the thing. If you waited till 20 to get all this gear then it scales to match your character level. Its at least level appropriate. In WOD, quest rewards didnt scale to character level yet. So you had to go do these quests to get this gear and load into a BG wearing like... ilvl 5 gear because when it scaled in the instance, it would be BIS.
That doesnt feel right and doesnt work the way gearing in an MMO should work. Its akin, in a way, to the high ilvl white gear being BIS in Legion. ilvl 5 gear you got questing in the starter zone shouldnt be BIS for pvp at level 20. Thats what sucked about WOD.
wholeheartedly agree. I understand why Blizz doesnt really care about low level pvp balance. But they should care about at least making sure its not as wildly out of whack as it currently is. And that the mechanic to deal with it currently exists in game but isnt used? insane.
Goesid
Twink Info Legend
well low lvl items lacked stats that scaled, there was pretty much only 1 lowbie item that rivaled the old items that people were running before wod and that was the fallen apprentice robe.
toskosa
Grandfathered
yeah I feel the same way about it, really kinda crazy how they just don't bother. like a simple fix to MM hunter would to make a rank2 aimed shot that buffs its damage by 30%ish and nerf it 30%ish before that. etc for the other specs but no.
This was after cata so there are some pretty interesting items to grab in the starting areas like elewyn, mostly weapons though.
Lateraldrop
Grandfathered
Im firmly in the "Gear should not mean anything in PVP" and I absolutely think it's right and good that all other things are equal that better players beat worse players. I agree that people whining about it in WoW are pretty much wasting their time, WoW has ALWAYS been gear-dependent, and the majority of the player base seems to prefer that, it's not changing. It definitely is not a feature of the genre, there are plenty of models in MMOs that do it differently.
Templates are the closest that WoW has gotten to fair and even games in solo queue ever. I hated them, not because the issue of gear matters but because you didn't have enough control over build paths, but honestly if they released templates with weighted stat choices (point-buy dnd) I would be tickled.
Either way, gear matters is the way of WoW so it doesn't really matter what other things are possible because they are not what is.
Chops
Soccer Dad
Yea, we just disagree about a fundamental design choice of the game.
My general stance (one that I return to constantly) is that I think most folks here are just playing the wrong game. Very few people I talk to in the twinking community seem to really enjoy WoW. Everyone wants it to be something that it fundamentally is not.
You'd all (mostly) be happier playing a MOBA
BANKONE
Veteran
Tweak
Grandfathered
Gotta say this as someone retuning to wow after many years,
Someone mentioned wanting the game to be basically a different game,
And ill agree with others,
You have so much bias, you're holding onto the past,
The game has changed, and some is good, most is not,
Burnout is the issue,
Your own personal burnout.
Put the toy down for abit,
Stop worrying about my toys,
Later you might enjoy your toy again.
Maybe not, crusading against those who still enjoy their toy, is a waste of time,
Go get a new toy,
Leave my toy alone.
I like my toy,
You don't? That's cool,
Go design better,
With flawless pvp like input and output as responsive as wow,
There's nothing.
So back to bg.
Someone mentioned wanting the game to be basically a different game,
And ill agree with others,
You have so much bias, you're holding onto the past,
The game has changed, and some is good, most is not,
Burnout is the issue,
Your own personal burnout.
Put the toy down for abit,
Stop worrying about my toys,
Later you might enjoy your toy again.
Maybe not, crusading against those who still enjoy their toy, is a waste of time,
Go get a new toy,
Leave my toy alone.
I like my toy,
You don't? That's cool,
Go design better,
With flawless pvp like input and output as responsive as wow,
There's nothing.
So back to bg.
Mol
Legend
Lateraldrop
Grandfathered
Gaming communities, in general, seem to struggle with enjoying parts of a game and accepting that a game can be fun and good even if it is not exactly what you prefer. I agree that for a lot of people a different game might be a better fit, but honestly, every game is going to have something you don't like about it eventually. I think it's better to enjoy the stuff you like and not get too wrapped up in the bad stuff.
Except for it is a game outside of PVP as well with levels and progression and gear, so it's more like just a different PVP system. Did WoW stop being an MMO when it tried (kinda poorly) to move in that direction w templates?
Chops
Soccer Dad
I will not hear this slander toward Darkest Dungeon!
I think WOW has busted a lot of the traditional understanding of what an MMORPG (and especially the RPG part) is and should be. For better or worse, I wont pass judgement there. But you're hitting Ship Of Theseus questions about what is essential to an MMORPG and what can be replaced without changing its nature.
MY argument is that essential parts to MMORPGs are character leveling, representing personal progression, and acquisition of gear, representing mission/story/campaign progression. Theres obviously some overlap there and some variations but ultimately this is how MMORPGS (and RPGs before computers) progressed.
As for whether or not changing this in pvp fundamentally changes the nature and genre of the game, I think first you have to ask what role PVP plays in that game. If its a small sideshow (like it is in Diablo, for instance) then do whatever you like. But if you want it to be a major factor or draw of the game, then I say it does fundamentally alter the game. For us twinks, this is why I generally argue against things like templates and gear scaling (while acknowledging that Legion pvp wasnt too bad!). PVP is a huge part of our experience in this MMORPG and causing the gear to not matter fundamentally alters the type of game we're playing.
If I'm going to play a combat game against other people where gear doesnt matter, why am I playing WOW? Arent there games that achieve this goal in better or more interesting ways and with way less feature bloat? If its because I care about my character, do I not also care that the progress I made count for something?
I know the counterpoint is that we dont want gear to carry bad players against good ones (which I sympathize with) but contrary to the OPs experience, I'd say thats not really happening. See Exhibit A, me. My warriors are pretty fucking well geared. Hell, even my alts are better geared than like 90% of the people on the armory. And I still got my ass handed to me by guys in enchanted heirlooms in the arena league because they are all actually good at the game.
