The new Rogue BiS

[Sebs]

Where are the maths for this agi and crit theory?

 

[Fancy]

Ok so when i tested this math with the normal set of saxxons and the set he has now I asked for his ambush damage and his crit % only. This change in damage on the ambush is a basis behind the overall increase with damage, I did the same with my hunter and his old set.

So this is the math for just the change between belt 5 agi 5 stam 5 crit and defias belt 7 agi 5 stam, difference of 2 agi vs 5 crit.

Now, i just swapped the belts in a arena game so they have scaling ofc to determine the stat change. This math will be with my arcane shot damage and my crit % change, I am unable to find a rogue with both defias set full and saxxons set but i will get tapout to give me his stats on a later date for more closer information.

First set, 209 arcane shot tooltip damage 26.13% crit. Second set, 207 arcaneshot tooltip damage 27.82 crit. So ((209/207)-1) x 100 would mean the % increase in damage which is 0.9662% of damage increase. 27.82-26.13 1.69% diff now if you google end game math with crit, every 1% crit increase = 0.5% damage increase, therefore an increase of 0.845%.

therefore 1 agi prox = 0.4831% increase, 1 crit prox =0.169% increase. so the ratio is 1 agi = 2.86 crit rating, my previous guess of 1 agi > 2.7 crit was my esitmate after alot of calculations. That is the math behind the bis agi gear. Please dont question saxxons set as it is bis.

 

[Yapah]

Ok so when i tested this math with the normal set of saxxons and the set he has now I asked for his ambush damage and his crit % only. This change in damage on the ambush is a basis behind the overall increase with damage, I did the same with my hunter and his old set.

So this is the math for just the change between belt 5 agi 5 stam 5 crit and defias belt 7 agi 5 stam, difference of 2 agi vs 5 crit.

Now, i just swapped the belts in a arena game so they have scaling ofc to determine the stat change. This math will be with my arcane shot damage and my crit % change, I am unable to find a rogue with both defias set full and saxxons set but i will get tapout to give me his stats on a later date for more closer information.

First set, 209 arcane shot tooltip damage 26.13% crit. Second set, 207 arcaneshot tooltip damage 27.82 crit. So ((209/207)-1) x 100 would mean the % increase in damage which is 0.9662% of damage increase. 27.82-26.13 1.69% diff now if you google end game math with crit, every 1% crit increase = 0.5% damage increase, therefore an increase of 0.845%.

therefore 1 agi prox = 0.4831% increase, 1 crit prox =0.169% increase. so the ratio is 1 agi = 2.86 crit rating, my previous guess of 1 agi > 2.7 crit was my esitmate after alot of calculations. That is the math behind the bis agi gear. Please dont question saxxons set as it is bis.

You tested this with hunter where you dont get any bonus AP. As a rogue we get 50% increase in AP. Therefore your 1 agility is 1.5 agility for us. So using your math, you get 1 agility > 4.29 crit for a rogue. So when comparing 3 agility 5 stam 5 arcane resist from defias vs 11 crit 2 haste. 3 agility is worth 12.87 crit.

 

[lexincton]

Hello*wave* I read you are talking about BiS for 19 rouges. So I thought about asking you all what you think I schould do with my old one to "pimp" him up ;-). Haven't played and worked with him over 2 years but the last month i see more and more 19th on Eu realms and I think maybe 19th will be there again. So i'll ask you all.

Ps: Groomshrout armor is in his Bag - I am thinking about giving it to my 29 because this one got the whole defias armor.
What do you think?

 

[lexincton]

eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/ravencrest/Cræven/simple

 

[Fancy]

I tested both sets on a rogue scaled, Stats from saxxons set is 977 ambush damage 22.75% crit, stats from defias set 995 ambush damage 19.04 crit. So with my math forumal again you get an increase of 1.84% damage from defias vs 1.855% increase from Saxxons set, therefore saxxons set is infact bis, the theory of 1 agi>4.29 crit rating is incorrect.

Also we havent factored in that Eleforce can infact crit, so if we assume eleforce is 20% of your birst when you open, which its around 30%, then you also get an extra of 0.371% increase in damage overall making saxxons set superior and defias set is a close second.

Yapah, just for the record please dont try to use logic in damage in wow, i can determine the ratio later, when i havent got shit to do.

Thanks to Hamgodx for assisting me in determining the bis set for rogues and prob all agility using classes.

 

[Braptingthebeast]

L2 head enchant >.>

 

[clarification]

27.82-26.13 1.69% diff now if you google end game math with crit, every 1% crit increase = 0.5% damage increase, therefore an increase of 0.845%.

That's not how you calculate the damage gain from crit, your numbers would only be correct at 0% crit. The effective value of crit depends on your current crit rating.

That being said calculating stat values based on a single ability is stupid and doesn't yield relevant results.

 

[Fancy]

Do 1000 damage tests of 5 second intervals of both possible sets and tell me which set is better, but till then my math is correct and ofc saxxon is bis.

And the Ambush is just an ability that gives the highest number for calculations to be more presice, the math will come out the same with sinister strike.

 

[clarification]

Do 1000 damage tests of 5 second intervals of both possible sets and tell me which set is better, but till then my math is correct and ofc saxxon is bis.

I just told you what's wrong with your math. It's on you to fix it if you want it to be correct, not on me.

 

[Fancy]

Ambush is the main damage of a rogue going on an EFC once stacks are high, it is very rare that they will be on them for long cause of displacer. I proved that this is the highest damage consistency of where a rogue would have time on an efc, and nothing else needs to be proven. If rogues want to go whatever set they want then fine idc, but im just stating the facts and the best rogues, the ones that plan to twink this up and coming twink cup, will go saxxons set.

 

[clarification]

I quoted your hunter math, genius.

 

[Sebs]

Ambush is the main damage of a rogue going on an EFC once stacks are high, it is very rare that they will be on them for long cause of displacer. I proved that this is the highest damage consistency of where a rogue would have time on an efc, and nothing else needs to be proven. If rogues want to go whatever set they want then fine idc, but im just stating the facts and the best rogues, the ones that plan to twink this up and coming twink cup, will go saxxons set.

EFC would probably be at 6 stacks which makes them go really slow, also just chug a speedpot.
"The best rogues", if people like high ambushes they will probably go full AP. If your team can play the game you wont be alone on EFC..

 

[Fancy]

What is wrong with my hunters maths? The bis damage sets are effectively the same other then the weapons ofc. The % change with arcane shot is also the same with explosive shot and steady shot.

Since hunter burst is when they get a proc or when full focus you shoot out 3 arcane shots for the burst which is the most prominent damage of hunter burst.

 

[clarification]

What is wrong with my hunters maths? The bis damage sets are effectively the same other then the weapons ofc. The % change with arcane shot is also the same with explosive shot and steady shot.

Since hunter burst is when they get a proc or when full focus you shoot out 3 arcane shots for the burst which is the most prominent damage of hunter burst.

I just told you what's wrong with your crit calculations, go back and read it. Also if you want to assume scope procs then use the damage values during the proc.

 

[Fancy]

I would like to learn how I would do the crit calculations, because that is how crit is calculated at end game pvp.
I love to learn how I would make my calculations more accurate and ofc correct.

 

[clarification]

I would like to learn how I would do the crit calculations, because that is how crit is calculated at end game pvp.
I love to learn how I would make my calculations more accurate and ofc correct.

Sure.

Your average damage is ability damage * (1 + crit%/200). Now if your crit is at zero then 1% additional crit does indeed effectively provide a .5% damage increase. However, the more crit you already have the less of an increase 1% crit will be. I'll showcase it in an example where I assume that whatever ability you are making calculations for does 100 damage.

At 0% crit the ability does 100 damage on average. | 100 * (1 + 0/200) = 100
At 1% crit the ability does 100.5 damage on average. | 100 * (1 + 1/200) = 100.5

The 1% additional crit yields an average .5% damage increase. | 100.5/100 - 1 = .005 = .5%

At 99% crit the ability does 149.5 damage on average. | 100 * (1 + 99/200) = 149.5
At 100% crit the ability does 150 damage on average. | 100 * (1+ 100/200) = 150

In this case the 1% additional crit yields an average ~.334% damage increase. | 150/149.5 -1 = ~.00334 = ~.334%

To accurately calculate the damage increase from crit you need to compare ability damage * (1 + crit%/200) for both scenarios, the one with additional crit and the one without.

 

[Fancy]

So with the 2 sets Defias with 995 ambush damage 19.04% crit and saxxons set with 977 ambush damage 22.75% crit and we use this formula we have values of:

For the defias set 995*0.0952 = 94.724.
For Saxxons set 977*0.11375=111.13

so shows saxxons set has the greater value and therefore the greater increase in damage.

Thank you for the help clarifications with my calculations, helps a great deal, if I did any thing wrong please state

Side note, this set is using forest bracer not thralls bracer in both sets as its not possible to have defias set and thralls bracers.

 

[Yapah]

So with the 2 sets Defias with 995 ambush damage 19.04% crit and saxxons set with 977 ambush damage 22.75% crit and we use this formula we have values of:

For the defias set 995*0.0952 = 94.724.
For Saxxons set 977*0.11375=111.13

so shows saxxons set has the greater value and therefore the greater increase in damage.

Thank you for the help clarifications with my calculations, helps a great deal, if I did any thing wrong please state

Side note, this set is using forest bracer not thralls bracer in both sets as its not possible to have defias set and thralls bracers.

You are trying to prove a point here, but the point you are trying to prove is flawed. So I will make a counter-arguement which will hopefully show you why it is flawed. With formula you used, we can apply it to other items like ello's band vs argas ring (so basically 3 agi vs 3 crit)

So here are the numbers:

23.43% crit and 933 ambush with argas ring
24.44% crit and 914 ambush with ellos band

So when we do that math:

(23.44/200) x (933) = 109.30095 for argas
(24.44/200) x (914) = 111.6908 for ellos

So from this demonstration you see that ello's band comes out higher than argas, so does this mean 1 crit > 1 agility? Because according to your math it does (which clearly isn't the case), so why aren't rogues goings around with crit enchants and crit gear? Clearly something is wrong


Please let's not mix up average damage with burst damage. Rogues are all about burst, and agility gives us that burst. If rogues wanted the highest possible DPS everyone would be rolling with haste because that has the highest average DPS.

P.S. I am not saying Saxx's gear isn't BiS, it could very well be that. All I am saying is agility vs crit is a much more complicated issue and we shouldn't just jump to conclusions when discussing 11 crit vs 3 agility from defias vs gloom.



EDIT: It is also important to note how devalued crit has become this expansion. The best way to show this would be with an example.

Pre-WoD 7 agility became 9.1 agility with the 30% agility boost passive rogues got, this would be 1.3 DPS increase. Pre-WoD 7 crit was 2.36% crit chance which would double your damage.

Now in WoD, 7 agility becomes 10.5 agility with the 50% AP boost rogues get, this would be 3.0 DPS. While crit chance stayed the same, 7 crit is still 2.36% crit but now it only does 50% more damage rather than double. So while agility now gives 2.3x more DPS than before, crit gives half the damage. So crit the agility ratio from pre-WoD to now is agility is 4.6x more valueable than before. Please correct me if I am wrong

 

[Mocha]

P.S. I am not saying Saxx's gear isn't BiS, it could very well be that. All I am saying is agility vs crit is a much more complicated issue and we shouldn't just jump to conclusions when discussing 11 crit vs 3 agility from defias vs gloom.

I agree. I'm not the most mathematical twinker. I just rock the gear that gives me my preferred stats.


But I have been interested in the absolute optimal point which awards the most damage when opening on a target.


Note, I'm not looking at strictly pure ambush damage, as there is way more into an opener than just an ambush. When you open, you're looking at roughly your ambush damage + a huge white hit + a few EF procs + perhaps a few white hits + maybe a sinister strike + some poison damage.


I see some people are saying pure AP gives you the best opener which I would be willing to bet is not the case. If you have 230 ap and only 17 - 18% crit, I doubt the overall damage you pull will be greater than if you had say 210 ap and 33% crit or so. These numbers are just theoretical as I'm not looking at my rogue's stats right now when writing this. A lot of these people have been like bragging to me or something saying "ambushes for 1500 are pretty cool" and I'm like "yeah... but you only get 1-2 of those out out of like every 10 people you ambush.


Your AP may be through the roof but if you never crit anything, I don't see how you'd push out reliable burst. I haven't taken the time to run trials yet, but I'd like to see people who have post their information rather than people just saying "____ says n% > x and he did math so it's true"


Just my opinions.