Separate f2p/veteran forums discussion
- Thread starter Myrm
- Start date
Honey Badger
OG
Kincaide
Legend
Listen guys, I've been absent a lot recently because of limited internet access so I'm just now seeing this post, and I honestly think that Myrm posted it without knowledge of what we went through to get to the point we're at today because he hasn't had an interest in this part of the site until now. There is not an argument to be made in this thread that we haven't already very deeply explored and debated before making the current arrangement.
The current arrangement is the most peaceful and drama-free arrangement we have EVER had in the history of level twenty twinking. Of the hundreds and hundreds of users who use this section, I can probably count five +/-2 users who would want to have it any other way than we have it now. Those very few people might be posting a lot and speaking at length in this thread but they represent a vanishingly few people and not statistically enough to make it worth upsetting a system that is really working, better than anyone thought it would.
I'm going to close this thread and talk to Myrm behind the scenes in case he wants to get up to speed with the history of this section, I don't think it would be appropriate to make any changes to something that works so well without first being informed of the history, what it was like before, and how well it is working now.
The current arrangement is the most peaceful and drama-free arrangement we have EVER had in the history of level twenty twinking. Of the hundreds and hundreds of users who use this section, I can probably count five +/-2 users who would want to have it any other way than we have it now. Those very few people might be posting a lot and speaking at length in this thread but they represent a vanishingly few people and not statistically enough to make it worth upsetting a system that is really working, better than anyone thought it would.
I'm going to close this thread and talk to Myrm behind the scenes in case he wants to get up to speed with the history of this section, I don't think it would be appropriate to make any changes to something that works so well without first being informed of the history, what it was like before, and how well it is working now.
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Broken
Legend
Reopening this thread. Although I won't guarantee anything, I think it's okay to at least hear the community out.
However, Kincaide does have some very valid points. There were many threads, discussions and polls made with the community, until it was finally decided to divide the sub-forums as they are (having F2P's and Vet's in the same sub-forum). And the current organisation is going pretty well with no complaints (until some concerns were raised in this thread).
I'm not totally against the separation but we need a better reason. It's worth noting that more than 90% of the members speaking both for and against separation, also did back when the original discussions were held. They all got to fairly vote in the poll back then as well.
Why do you feel the decision made back then was wrong and should be changed? How can we improve it and reach a more accurate solution? Or do you agree with the previous decision and feel we should stick with it?
Simply repeating the same points we did back then (both for and against separation) will end up with us running in circles. We need to analyse and move forward.
However, Kincaide does have some very valid points. There were many threads, discussions and polls made with the community, until it was finally decided to divide the sub-forums as they are (having F2P's and Vet's in the same sub-forum). And the current organisation is going pretty well with no complaints (until some concerns were raised in this thread).
I'm not totally against the separation but we need a better reason. It's worth noting that more than 90% of the members speaking both for and against separation, also did back when the original discussions were held. They all got to fairly vote in the poll back then as well.
Why do you feel the decision made back then was wrong and should be changed? How can we improve it and reach a more accurate solution? Or do you agree with the previous decision and feel we should stick with it?
Simply repeating the same points we did back then (both for and against separation) will end up with us running in circles. We need to analyse and move forward.
Activate
Legend
The inactivity at this time of year, along with the transition many players made from trial to veteran, along with the lack of a sub-forum for trials have all dealt a severe blow to this community. I along with other passionate trials would like to revive our community. We need a sub-forum for this. Drama is easily handled. That's the argument.
Yde
Worg
Thanks Broken! 
Well, now I definitely feel like I'm running in circles.
Summary:
I'll quote the two posts from the other thread that I think sum up both sides best:
As I've said before, in this case I'm with Lenny and think it's a decision that should have been made according to logic and not majority vote, and should be open to revision. But both positions are valid and should be considered carefully.
Well, now I definitely feel like I'm running in circles.
Summary:
- I'm for separating the information as relevant to different account types because I consider it logical and practical.
- An added subsection would create a clutter-free platform for F2P restricted events.
- Same goes for non-restricted P2P and Vet 20 activites.
- I find the current system of tags very helpful but still insufficient for this, as you can either tag account type OR region, and many people don't bother, so it's difficult to use as a filter. Subforums would work like a mandatory tag.
- People who play both Vet and F2P probably don't even notice this issue, since all content is relevant to them, but this should be no reason to ignore the concerns of people who do not find all content relevant, if there's such an easy solution.
- If implemented, subforums would and should definitely not stop anyone from posting in either section, just provide more logical sorting, so I feel the concern of being excluded is unwarranted.
- Please no-one try to invalidate my opinion by saying only people disliking Vets could be for a forum split. I hold these and no other opinions on the topic because I consider them well thought out, and I'm fine with being convinced that I erred.
I'll quote the two posts from the other thread that I think sum up both sides best:
As I've said before, in this case I'm with Lenny and think it's a decision that should have been made according to logic and not majority vote, and should be open to revision. But both positions are valid and should be considered carefully.
CripzBlood
Legend
f2p would get more organised and feel together in this attempt to raise activity back, basicly we would get the challenge we always had be4 vets came, "f2p vs p2ps", beating OP classes/enchants with skill and teamwork.
more activity in-game = more activity in forums.
with bracket managers( i hope) there will be much more activity from both f2p and p2p, keep them together would only clutter this sub forum.
decision made back then was too confusing poll, and many ppl choose wrong by mistake, also when making change in f2p section, why ask ppl from other sections to make decision for us? ik most vets and p2ps want f2p,vet,p2p all together, but i dont think it was their choice.
this considering we are in democracy cuz like kincaide told me, the most voted option doesnt means it will be choosen, final decision is made by staff/admin.
i agree with arguments made in post stated above me, but wont repeat them to avoid unnecessary long posts.
more activity in-game = more activity in forums.
with bracket managers( i hope) there will be much more activity from both f2p and p2p, keep them together would only clutter this sub forum.
decision made back then was too confusing poll, and many ppl choose wrong by mistake, also when making change in f2p section, why ask ppl from other sections to make decision for us? ik most vets and p2ps want f2p,vet,p2p all together, but i dont think it was their choice.
this considering we are in democracy cuz like kincaide told me, the most voted option doesnt means it will be choosen, final decision is made by staff/admin.
i agree with arguments made in post stated above me, but wont repeat them to avoid unnecessary long posts.
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yasueh
OG
I'm all for the efficient organisation of information, but not when a very vocal minority is using it as an excuse to divide a community.
I've only come back to WoW recently, but already I've seen a small number being very vocal that they want a split (a small number, many of whom were previously banned), and I've also seen Felix banning veterans from the channel, and expressing the opinion that vets are 'sell-outs' (an attitude that I'm sure is shared by several other 'purists').
Meanwhile, outside of those outbursts, I've seen the Horde channel on AP-US full of both F2Ps and vets, playing together. They run dungeons together, they do BGs together, they do wargames together. Despite what the few supposed 'spokespersons for F2P' would have you believe, the huge majority of F2Ps in game have no issues playing with vets, and will most likely continue like that, provided certain individuals aren't constantly trying to provoke confrontation.
What I'm seeing is a lot of butt-hurt from those too stubborn to take advantage of great opportunity: Pay once for an upgrade that will remove almost all the old disadvantages of playing at 20 without a subscription. Butt-hurt that the 20 community no longer revolves around them, but instead a quickly growing community of vets, pulling in new members from existing F2Ps, new players, subbed accounts and unsubbed accounts alike.
I see talk of making F2P more popular, but that is never going to happen, when many of the incoming players to the game will instead choose vet, and the BGs will have an ever increasing number of players geared better than an F2P. That has always been the biggest barrier to convincing people to play F2P, and since vet it has only grown higher.
There may be a way to make F2P more popular, but it is not by excluding other players of the game, and certainly not by pushing new players to spend considerable effort gearing up an F2P under severe constraints, to play at a huge disadvantage.
I've only come back to WoW recently, but already I've seen a small number being very vocal that they want a split (a small number, many of whom were previously banned), and I've also seen Felix banning veterans from the channel, and expressing the opinion that vets are 'sell-outs' (an attitude that I'm sure is shared by several other 'purists').
Meanwhile, outside of those outbursts, I've seen the Horde channel on AP-US full of both F2Ps and vets, playing together. They run dungeons together, they do BGs together, they do wargames together. Despite what the few supposed 'spokespersons for F2P' would have you believe, the huge majority of F2Ps in game have no issues playing with vets, and will most likely continue like that, provided certain individuals aren't constantly trying to provoke confrontation.
What I'm seeing is a lot of butt-hurt from those too stubborn to take advantage of great opportunity: Pay once for an upgrade that will remove almost all the old disadvantages of playing at 20 without a subscription. Butt-hurt that the 20 community no longer revolves around them, but instead a quickly growing community of vets, pulling in new members from existing F2Ps, new players, subbed accounts and unsubbed accounts alike.
I see talk of making F2P more popular, but that is never going to happen, when many of the incoming players to the game will instead choose vet, and the BGs will have an ever increasing number of players geared better than an F2P. That has always been the biggest barrier to convincing people to play F2P, and since vet it has only grown higher.
There may be a way to make F2P more popular, but it is not by excluding other players of the game, and certainly not by pushing new players to spend considerable effort gearing up an F2P under severe constraints, to play at a huge disadvantage.
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Yde
Worg
Fair points Yasueh.
I just don't see how two subforums would mean people being pushed to choose F2P over Vet.
In fact I think Vet is a great choice and people should definitely be recruited to try it! It's especially useful now that you can lock XP / locked XP stays locked, meaning not only 20s but old 19s, 10s and 1s can hop in game even without a sub, which is superb for the communities!
But some people just want to stick to the old challenge for whatever reasons they have, and that should be fine, no? I think it's a bit harsh to accuse them all of just being "butt-hurt".
Just want to make clear that people asking TI to consider creating two subforums are definitely not all doing it to exclude / break apart / discourage.
Anyway, please don't hate me for having a different opinion on this issue, I still think you're the most awesomest person in this bracket for all the great things you are doing and you've done since day one! That is way more important than a friendly discussion on what should be posted where.
I just don't see how two subforums would mean people being pushed to choose F2P over Vet.
In fact I think Vet is a great choice and people should definitely be recruited to try it!
It's especially useful now that you can lock XP / locked XP stays locked, meaning not only 20s but old 19s, 10s and 1s can hop in game even without a sub, which is superb for the communities!But some people just want to stick to the old challenge for whatever reasons they have, and that should be fine, no? I think it's a bit harsh to accuse them all of just being "butt-hurt".
Just want to make clear that people asking TI to consider creating two subforums are definitely not all doing it to exclude / break apart / discourage.
Anyway, please don't hate me for having a different opinion on this issue, I still think you're the most awesomest person in this bracket for all the great things you are doing and you've done since day one!
That is way more important than a friendly discussion on what should be posted where.
CripzBlood
Legend
its great that now u can have p2p lvl20 twink for much cheaper price, for ppl who was always about the money but for some f2ps was about the community and the challenge.
i have ppl i like that play vet, ofc i would prefer they played f2p, but its not because of it that i wont play with them.
They think f2ps dont have chance agaisnt how OP p2ps are nowadays, so we f2ps can show them wrong.
only good thing vet had bringed to me was being able to be part of a guild that i dreamed of many times, would make community of f2ps in each server much stronger and more active.(idk if vets can even talk in guild chat etc).
But at end of day vets kinda destroyed/split the great community there was.
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yasueh
OG
I'm accusing people of being butt-hurt because when Blizzard changed the game, they started being obnoxious to the people who took advantage of that change.
There have always been two-sides to twinking, you're either the kind of player who does it to close a gap, or one who does it to make it bigger. F2Ps have always been outgeared by 24s or 29s, in ever increasing numbers, and for years I have heard F2Ps complaining about how they would like ways to close that gap, that was their motivation for twinking. When vet comes along and they finally have a way to close it without going full sub, it is completely unfair to call them sell-outs, because the reason behind it is the complete opposite. People may want a challenge, but at some point it has become too big for most of them.
You might be able to pull-off playing F2P in a bracket full of 29 and Vet BMs and ferals if you're BiS and experienced, but new players and casuals don't want that. They want a game they can start playing without spending months gearing up (DMF heirlooms). Vet gives them a way to do that. Unfortunately, it takes away most of the potential newcomers from F2P too.
While F2P twinking may be free it is no longer the kind of new player friendly experience that is conducive to building a thriving community. It has become something for the pros, just like how the best 19s from before XP lock would play at 15, and actually pull it off, without whining about higher levelled / better geared players, or being carried.
If you want to build a big F2P community then it will have to be made separate from regular BGs, instead relying on wargames, and it would be best to abandon twinking too, as many are put off by the long task of getting all the gear.
The way Blizzard have it for this bracket is ass-backwards with progression through the game and skill level in the wrong places, like:
Progression into the game: Starter Edition > Vet > Sub (> Vet.)
Skill to play: Sub > Vet > Starter Edition.
Promote F2P as a more advanced playstyle, instead of something everyone should be encouraged to do, and I'll be happy for it to have a sub-forum under the main 20 twinking forum.
The new / casual player point of entry for level 20 should now be as a veteran account, as that's what best serves them, and that is what the main 20 twinking forum should focus on.
There have always been two-sides to twinking, you're either the kind of player who does it to close a gap, or one who does it to make it bigger. F2Ps have always been outgeared by 24s or 29s, in ever increasing numbers, and for years I have heard F2Ps complaining about how they would like ways to close that gap, that was their motivation for twinking. When vet comes along and they finally have a way to close it without going full sub, it is completely unfair to call them sell-outs, because the reason behind it is the complete opposite. People may want a challenge, but at some point it has become too big for most of them.
You might be able to pull-off playing F2P in a bracket full of 29 and Vet BMs and ferals if you're BiS and experienced, but new players and casuals don't want that. They want a game they can start playing without spending months gearing up (DMF heirlooms). Vet gives them a way to do that. Unfortunately, it takes away most of the potential newcomers from F2P too.
While F2P twinking may be free it is no longer the kind of new player friendly experience that is conducive to building a thriving community. It has become something for the pros, just like how the best 19s from before XP lock would play at 15, and actually pull it off, without whining about higher levelled / better geared players, or being carried.
If you want to build a big F2P community then it will have to be made separate from regular BGs, instead relying on wargames, and it would be best to abandon twinking too, as many are put off by the long task of getting all the gear.
The way Blizzard have it for this bracket is ass-backwards with progression through the game and skill level in the wrong places, like:
Progression into the game: Starter Edition > Vet > Sub (> Vet.)
Skill to play: Sub > Vet > Starter Edition.
Promote F2P as a more advanced playstyle, instead of something everyone should be encouraged to do, and I'll be happy for it to have a sub-forum under the main 20 twinking forum.
The new / casual player point of entry for level 20 should now be as a veteran account, as that's what best serves them, and that is what the main 20 twinking forum should focus on.
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Yde
Worg
That makes sense, thank you very much for elaborating, was clarifying for me.
I misunderstood the other post and It shocked me a bit to see you (appearing) so cynical. ^^
I'm too tired, I fear I'm slipping into incoherence right now, so good night all.
Whatever comes from all of this I still like you all very much.
I misunderstood the other post and It shocked me a bit to see you (appearing) so cynical. ^^
I actually think this would be ideal. I'd just like to see a place where F2P limits and events can be discussed, I don't care at all whether it's "pure" F2P accounts or a challenge set for P2P or Vets, I just don't like the jumbled sorting right now. I would actually be great to have people have an F2P restricted character to hop on for events, much like 39s sometimes get active when people get coordinated.
I'm too tired, I fear I'm slipping into incoherence right now, so good night all.
Whatever comes from all of this I still like you all very much.
Revlo
A Sentient Pyramid
I am really liking this discussion now. I am doing a little bit of playing again having been away for a while. With the bracket the way it is (which I both like and don't like simultaneously) I currently am living in Ashenvale doing world PVP bouncing back and forth between horde and ally depending how balance needs to be helped at any given time. You could say I'm not really doing much of anything constructive for 20 - 29 BG/Arena bracket; however, I do still hit this forum for information, changes, events, new gear, etc. I'm not sure if I voted for the current setup or not, but as it stands now using the forum as F2P is a little non-optimal. It's not very efficient to have to scroll through multiple vet posts to see things that are more relevant to F2P and vice versa for vets skipping F2P relevant posts. I would say some sort of sub-forum would be ideal from my perspective. Now, is it a big deal if it stays the same as it is now? Of course not, it's not that big of a pain it's just not optimal. The issue with the sub-forum would be if there would still be a way to share some of the stickies. I am not familiar with how that would work, but it could be a deal-breaker of a problem since both vets and F2Ps have quite a bit of common information that is useful.
Anyway, that's where I'm coming from with my official chime-in to split the forum earlier in this thread. I don't by any means hate vets, I may have some at some point. I just think things could possibly be cleaner and more useful by having a sub-forum if it can be made to work with shared sticky info.
Another side note... I hope to see things like exploration threads, parkour threads, interesting PVE challenges, etc again on here. They really helped/help to keep things fun when strict BG/Arena gets tiring. The other thought there though is that those things can be somewhat shared between vets and starters and it would still be a benefit to have some sharing.
Anyway, nice to see everyone again.
Anyway, that's where I'm coming from with my official chime-in to split the forum earlier in this thread. I don't by any means hate vets, I may have some at some point. I just think things could possibly be cleaner and more useful by having a sub-forum if it can be made to work with shared sticky info.
Another side note... I hope to see things like exploration threads, parkour threads, interesting PVE challenges, etc again on here. They really helped/help to keep things fun when strict BG/Arena gets tiring. The other thought there though is that those things can be somewhat shared between vets and starters and it would still be a benefit to have some sharing.
Anyway, nice to see everyone again.
Trialmop
F2P Community Leader
I would rather not see these type of threads also. http://www.twinkinfo.com/forums/f43/morlecid-mallos-68057/
You could defiantly add that. I'm with turtle I have not really seen a @thread directed towards themselves but with this setup no telling what else will pop up.
incase it gets deleted
First Post Reads
He knows f2p share forums.
You could defiantly add that. I'm with turtle I have not really seen a @thread directed towards themselves but with this setup no telling what else will pop up.
incase it gets deleted
First Post Reads
So guess bit of a dumb post but Idc I want to know. Who here knows me and has something to say about me? Am I an asshole and spam macro at you too often, did I kill you on feral/spreist too many times in one day, just dislike who I am why I am? Know me personally, think I'm cool? Ok? Good at the game? Bad? Idk, let me know what you think. I won't get mad for your opinions and I wont hate you for it. But I probably wont respond to negative comments much either
He knows f2p share forums.
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yasueh
OG
Only because every time I get the stupid idea to come back and do something for this bracket, a few days of reading forums puts me right off the idea, and I go and play other F2P games for several months instead. (remember this? It's ready to be launched. I just don't see the point).
Maybe I should just forget about the community and play for myself, but then I've got no reason to go vet. I have no problem paying a sub. I've been thinking of taking this to 29.
Maybe I should just forget about the community and play for myself, but then I've got no reason to go vet. I have no problem paying a sub. I've been thinking of taking this to 29.
Trialmop
F2P Community Leader
Well, One thing that isn't a argument is the fact you have put in countless work for f2p and the 20-24/20-29 bracket. It may sometimes seem underappreciated but words cannot describe how thankful this bracket is for your creativity and work.
Kincaide
Legend
Something that a lot of you don't realize or at least don't remember, is that when all the voting was said and done, there WAS a separate sub-forum just for F2Ps under the Level Twenty Twinking forum. Shane wanted the arrangement to be as it is today, and I agreed with him, but I personally petitioned in the staff discussion area for F2Ps to have their own sub-forum, specifically so that they could have their own place to discuss F2P-specific issues.
...and the result of that decision was a huge shit-storm as a huge number of F2Ps lashed out at the staff, saying that we were trying to stuff F2Ps away from the larger community and de-legitimize them by forcing them to be separate from the rest of the community. The number of people who very loudly protested against being separated from the Twenties community, was far greater than the number of people who are now protesting for being separated.
The arrangement we have now is the one that the huge massive majority of players--including F2Ps--wanted to have. I repeat: when we tried to implement exactly the thing you're suggesting, the entire F2P community rebelled against us and accused us of all sorts of unsavory underhanded intentions. I don't think that their wishes should be overturned because of the multiple string of postings here which are largely coming only from people who haven't even been in the community in ages, several of whom (Cripz and Trialmop at least) were perma-banned due to their abuse of the very same community. I think it is a mistake to legitimize the claim that there is even any problem here to be fixed, when the proposed solution had already been tried and summarily rejected by the entire community.
...and the result of that decision was a huge shit-storm as a huge number of F2Ps lashed out at the staff, saying that we were trying to stuff F2Ps away from the larger community and de-legitimize them by forcing them to be separate from the rest of the community. The number of people who very loudly protested against being separated from the Twenties community, was far greater than the number of people who are now protesting for being separated.
The arrangement we have now is the one that the huge massive majority of players--including F2Ps--wanted to have. I repeat: when we tried to implement exactly the thing you're suggesting, the entire F2P community rebelled against us and accused us of all sorts of unsavory underhanded intentions. I don't think that their wishes should be overturned because of the multiple string of postings here which are largely coming only from people who haven't even been in the community in ages, several of whom (Cripz and Trialmop at least) were perma-banned due to their abuse of the very same community. I think it is a mistake to legitimize the claim that there is even any problem here to be fixed, when the proposed solution had already been tried and summarily rejected by the entire community.
CripzBlood
Legend
correction: i wasnt perma-banned, i was banned for 1month or 2weeks, for saying: "rape achmed" aka tbag ingame language.
nice try on trying to make my opinion invalid "cuz i was away from commnunity for ages" which is a lie.
no suprise only one mod could have given me infraction for that, one mod that wanted me to shut up.
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