Goesid
Twink Info Legend
Big misstake, you just said it again. You really did learn nothing from that ban...
Separate f2p/veteran forums discussion
- Thread starter Myrm
- Start date
Big misstake, you just said it again. You really did learn nothing from that ban...
Activate
Legend
This is the first I'm hearing of this, could you point me towards the evidence? Although I'm not hearing any of that now, just people who play both ends in opposition.
Goesid
Twink Info Legend
Think there is none, when people critized it they removed the entire F2P subforum and I think all the threads in it.
Broken
Legend
When we initially made the decision to place F2P's and Veterans together, some people still insisted F2P's get their own separate area. So, as Kincaide said, we created a separate sub-forum for F2P-only topics. F2P's still had full authority to post their topics in other sections, like they always had, but they now also had the choice to use a sub-forum where only F2P-related topics would be allowed.
When it was implemented, there was a huge amount of backlash and complaints by the majority of the community that the Staff is "abandoning" F2P's. Like we're just throwing them away into some secluded part of the forums, even though it was suggested by the members themselves.
We took back the decision and Shane removed the sub-forum. The threads in that section got removed along with it as well. It may be possible to find a post somewhere in another thread but, unfortunately, the main bulk of "evidence" is long gone. You do have my word that it happened. I'm sure there are other members here who witnessed it as well.
AlbinoCow
Vaco Del Blanco
The problem with the previous f2p subforum was that it was just thrown in. We had 0 previous threads, 0 stickies and so on. Of course there was major discourse, all the previous threads throughout all the years were created for f2ps and contained not only information but memories. All of those core f2p elements of the forum were left in the major 20 twink forum rather than in the f2p sub-forum where they shouldve rightfully belonged.
As of now im not so sure exactly which option would be for the best. Separating may have a good outcome in the future, but its immediate effect will at best be neutral. And staying in the current format is working fine and it allows for vets to more easily cross the line into f2p ( as far as gear, events and the sort go ). I must say as an organizer of recent events, without vet players who were previously f2p coming to fill spots they wouldn't have happened. I was a very strong advocate to make sure ppl did not go veteran when it first came out, mainly because i knew it would severly impact the f2p community, like it has now. Disregard the morality between the two and you see that the long, fun-filled, tight-nit times of f2p is not there anymore, mainly because many f2ps went vet. That can be a saddening fact for many players, and thats why people like activate or even trialmop ( before u add in overzealous actions / words ).
Vets offer a new type of community, however it has the cost of leaving old times behind and becoming what many f2ps consider annoying, p2p chants / gear. There was a huge dispute of terms and wording a while back but as far as im concerned a vet who uses solely f2p restricted chars is a f2p in pvp terms. Just like ive had a sub on my account for all these years but still considered a f2p on my chars. So to sum it up, f2p has been torched together with vet at this time, and the two may not like some specifics of one another but are forced to be near right now. It will take a lot of effort to break off f2p restore it to what it was once without cracking or damaging it in the process
Bop
Remember the Treeline
As it stands, much of the F2P community was killed not by Twinkinfo's actions, but by the very existence of Veteran accounts.
In many ways, I truly believe that Vet status came about in response to the large number of consistent F2P players.
It is a win for those vet players, since they are able to play the game at the same levels but with the advantage they have always had lorded over them by p2ps.
It is a win for P2Ps, since their brackets are more filled and competitive - unless they don't want competition, but honestly the only change has just been a larger influx of P2P-strength toons.
It is a win for Blizzard, as it calls for 1-time payments from Vets and increased exposure to higher game content to be able to fund the expensive enchants, gear, etc for those characters.
The only people who were legitimately hurt by the transition were those who were unable to make it, which is completely predictable and expected - and frankly no individual's fault; short of Blizzard itself.
But this blow to traditional trial accounts is easily witnessed in the lack of activity and community events that were seen prior to Vet Status. There's not really anything any of us can do about that. Having an actual TI position dedicated to organizing events in this bracket will best utilize the resources available to us, but you can't build a house without timber.
In many ways, I truly believe that Vet status came about in response to the large number of consistent F2P players.
It is a win for those vet players, since they are able to play the game at the same levels but with the advantage they have always had lorded over them by p2ps.
It is a win for P2Ps, since their brackets are more filled and competitive - unless they don't want competition, but honestly the only change has just been a larger influx of P2P-strength toons.
It is a win for Blizzard, as it calls for 1-time payments from Vets and increased exposure to higher game content to be able to fund the expensive enchants, gear, etc for those characters.
The only people who were legitimately hurt by the transition were those who were unable to make it, which is completely predictable and expected - and frankly no individual's fault; short of Blizzard itself.
But this blow to traditional trial accounts is easily witnessed in the lack of activity and community events that were seen prior to Vet Status. There's not really anything any of us can do about that. Having an actual TI position dedicated to organizing events in this bracket will best utilize the resources available to us, but you can't build a house without timber.
Morlecid
Grandfathered
Wow has excellent service and treats most situations with an open mind, I dont think they mean to hurt the twinks but really, low lvl scaling has been out of whack for a while now, dont mind my idioms.
Twinkinfo is a good advocate for wow and a worthy proponent, seems the same,.. But, Wow has treated me better than any other game or forum even with f2p or p2p. The players make f2p bad and p2p boring...
Twinkinfo is a good advocate for wow and a worthy proponent, seems the same,.. But, Wow has treated me better than any other game or forum even with f2p or p2p. The players make f2p bad and p2p boring...
Kincaide
Legend
It is as Broken said above. That subforum lasted about a week or a week and a half and contained about 5 threads, most of which were of the nature of "how dare they do this to us" and "Shane PLEASE SAVE US!" because of how completely the F2P community rejected the idea.
This is an excellent point and one that I also recently tried to bring up with Myrm in our staff conversations. The real issue that a few people have is with the vanishing presence of F2Ps in game, and the way that F2Ps are marginalized in game... NOT on the forums. People have already given examples of how and why having the two groups together here is beneficial, and also given examples of in-game communities where that divide doesn't even exist. Changing the structure of the forums is not going to change anything in-game, and indeed physically separating the F2Ps from other twenties on the forums would only further the psychological and social gap between the two groups here on the forums... a point that was made, and rightly so, by the F2P community itself when we attempted to do just that.
Kincaide
Legend
Why not put some data behind the claim that there is "little to lose and much to gain"? I've already explained what many other F2Ps felt that they had to lose: a sense of legitimacy and belonging in the bracket. Given that over time, so many F2Ps have gone Veteran, many F2Ps complained at length that being separated would be pushing F2Ps even further out of the mainstream. So there -is- something to lose. Explain what you would have to gain--what would you be able to do, that you can't do currently--that would be worth taking on that added separation and compartmentalization from the community? This is a legitimate question. You seem to feel that there is a lot that you could do, that you can't do now, but I don't see what it is, so here's your chance to explain it.
Activate
Legend
Have an identity and contentious presence within the bracket. No trial left behind!
Yde
Worg
Potential losses incurred in case of change:
Disadvantages for people interested in both Vet and F2P:
Have to read two subforums.
Disadvantages due to same level:
Choosing where to post or keep threads that could belong to both sections, anything relevant to gear. This is the biggest disadvantage in my opinion.
Psychological Disadvantages:
Loss of sense of legitimacy and belonging in the bracket for F2P.
People playing Vets feeling excluded and alone.
Potential gains:
Advantages for people only interested in Vet things:
Have a place that showcases the many fun things veterans are discovering now. With current activity this is pretty much the status quo, so no real advantage here.
Advantages for people only interested in F2P things:
- Have one place that efficiently displays threads relevant to the account type and its limitations.
- Regardless of actual F2P or restricted because of interest in playing with restriction.
- Which the current tag system is unable to do because I cannot select: hey vBulletin old buddy old pal please display [Starter] and [All] and also untagged threads if poster didn't bother, if it's relevant to F2P and also [US] and [EU] if that was important to the one posting the thread, k? Yay thanks.
- Have one place where F2P limits and events can be discussed and the threads aren't bumped into oblivion. I'm glad to see the many fun things veterans are discovering now, it truly is great. But it naturally produces content much quicker than F2P where things are tried and tested.
- If planned events stay on the first page this gives the people interested in the challenge a chance to see them. There's enough old characters around, people could reactivate them if they're interested.
Advantages for people interested in both:
Things are sorted better.
Psychological Advantages:
Regain a currently lost sense of legitimacy and belonging in the bracket for F2P.
Things that may make the disadvantages insignificant:
- Make a decision on where the front page for 20 twinking is. This will probably be Vet / full enchanted P2P. Put / Leave the important threads on gear there. Other sections can duplicate or link to them easily.
- Put other stuff from the time where there were no Vets into F2P section. If it gets bumped, like parkour, anyone can post in it, since it was a community thing and there's no level requirement at all. If someone rightly thinks it's awesome and wants it in the Vet / 19s / 70s section, they can link it there.
- This is a forum. It's like a box of folders in your office, you can stuff everything into one folder because you think it's all interesting to you, but your accountant who's only interested in part of it may be annoyed, or you can sort your stuff into different folders. Maybe you end up deciding you'd prefer not to do that because you don't like folders, and that is fine too. Either way you can read everything in the box. Everyone can read and post everywhere in this forum if the topic interests them and no-one should ever feel sad and alone.
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Yde
Worg
Haha, I am amazed at myself too, funny how I just made a serious summary for such a silly topic.
Anyway I feel that is a relatively correct summary of the pros and cons posted in here, some of which had apparently not been seen by everyone. It's subjective, of course.
Made difficult because most of the consequences are intangible and you can't prove it either way.
There is no collective F2P consciousness, only people, which is why I dislike the phrase "decision made by the community"; that will never exist unless every single person agrees to something.
Revlo
A Sentient Pyramid
I'm not an expert on how constructing forums works, but I had a thought. Could each group, F2Ps and Vets, have their own sub-forum off of the main Level 20 twinking forum? That way shared info for both could be in the Level 20 Twinking forum and then each group could have their own areas to post individually relative info. That would put F2P and Vets on equal footing with each having their own sub-forums and keep a centralized location for shared info. It would mean each F2P and Vet would potentially have 2 forums to look in for data, again being on equal footing. Just a thought. *shrugs*
Trialmop
F2P Community Leader
Don't like that idea. Don't want to be a sub forum to a sub forum. I like Yde's approach to the situation. I obviously have stated other reasons myself so no need to repeat them now.
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Kincaide
Legend
We separated the bracket, people complained anyway.
The bulk of the content in the Twenty Twinking forum pertains to both Veterans and to F2Ps. All of the old threads from years past are not going to be moved into a new F2P-only forum. That would not be fair to the majority of the Twenty Twinking community who do not exclusively play F2P. If you guys want to pitch an argument for having your own place to be able to read your own F2P-exclusive threads without having to sort through the majority of stuff that applies to the whole bracket, you can do so, but don't get greedy and try to steal away years' worth of threads that are not solely of interest to F2Ps. Don't try to have your cake and eat it too.