Mocha
Legendary
Let's talk about rogues for a second. Welcome to Twinkinfo.com btw. Where we discuss and share information relative to twinking. Every thread that I make is basically a blog post. Why? Because I like to write about twinking. If you don't like to read about twinking, then why are you on Twink Info? ;D
It is very late. I am very tired. This post is saved in my documents as "Rambling Rogue" because of its lack of formality, lengthy manner and lack of any conclusive evidence. This post probably provokes more questions than it answers. ;D
The absolutely amazing thing about rogues currently is also a very frustrating issue. There are simply so many viable options for how to gear and play rogue right now. It's not unknown that lately there have been too many rogues in PUGs and it can make for some very frustrating games, but that is another topic all together.
What I really want to know is what you guys are doing, why you're doing it and whether or not you believe it truly is the best way to go. Have you ran any tests? Have you just built a set based on theory crafting? Have you crunched numbers? What do you really think is the bis set up for rogues?
I know it's situational. I know stacking either crit, ap, versatility, haste, multistrike, or whatever you prefer will still probably result in roughly the same outcome as long as the different possibilities are more or less the same specs and all know how to use thistle tea. Perhaps there is a minimal amount of burst required to drop an efc asap and perhaps all of these viable options are above that threshold so it doesn't make a single slice of difference. I know as a stam stacked sub rogue I had more than enough burst to drop efcs and I had 3.3k hp.
Please discuss because there are many rogues (myself included) whom would be interested in being able to divulge into your thought process behind your WOD Rogues!
It is very late. I am very tired. This post is saved in my documents as "Rambling Rogue" because of its lack of formality, lengthy manner and lack of any conclusive evidence. This post probably provokes more questions than it answers. ;D
The absolutely amazing thing about rogues currently is also a very frustrating issue. There are simply so many viable options for how to gear and play rogue right now. It's not unknown that lately there have been too many rogues in PUGs and it can make for some very frustrating games, but that is another topic all together.
I've played 19 rogues for a very, very long time and I've seen it change into a state that is merely a shell of what the class once was. There have been improvements, there have been abilities that were removed. We went from being the most mobile class in the bracket by a mile to one of the least mobile. Back in an age where travel form, blink, ghost wolf, flying serpent kick, disengage, demo leap, rollx2, pally sprint, tiger's lust, double charge, blazing speed, worgen sprint, goblin jump etc did not exist, we were the only class with a movement speed increase. In my opinion, today's version of old school 19 rogue would be a Windwalker Monk today. Nevertheless, we still play the rogues that we have had for years and spent many hours creating and enjoying.
Cataclysm brought many changes to 19 rogues. From this point on, rogues should be in stealth for the majority of the Warsong Gulch game with the exception of opening on an EFC with stacks or another class in attempt to 1 shot it. They don't perform horribly out of stealth, but with the amount of burst, dots, ranged dps and hard hitting melee, it provides for a very short lifespan for a rogue after popping out of stealth.
As of right now, there are 2 viable rogue play styles that I've experienced. One would be the combat rogue, 1 shotting people and regaining stealth asap. The other would be sub rogue, playing more defensively, dotting other rogues and looking to gain stealth asap. These two play styles are very different and provide different goals and outcomes. One is clearly more potent as an assassin role in Warsong Gulch. The other is a defensive route that can provide an enjoyable experience when utilized as a support role.
Through the years I've pioneered several styles of gameplay for a rogue (some said to be unviable) but I've had my reasons for each of them. Throughout cata I was running around as combat with crusader on my main rogue because people were not aware that SnD bugged out to reward many crusader procs a game which granted 100 strength. This granted us with 200 attack power bonus as it should not have which resulted in eviscerate crits for over 1.2k. My backup rogue (same name, race, gender, realm etc) was running around as assination with dual fiery stacking haste and looking for poison procs. Late in Cata I decided to show the bracket how they could play subtlety rogue a different way. Other than shadowstep ambushing everyone in mid, they could use shadowstep to aid in completing objectives (see my video). In MOP, the fiery / haste assassination rogue became the assassination EF proc rogue because haste no longer effected poison procs and crit influenced the new EF. As this became most popular, I was playing sub rogue, dotting everything, switching between elemental force and mending weapons which when paired with UD racial and recuperate was simply insane self healing.
However, as we've mentioned, with the abundance of rogues and the shortened Warsong timer, increased speed of debuffs, there simply is not enough room to fill Warsong pugs with rogue slots that do not prioritize on 1 shotting EFCs. At the end of the day, play what you enjoy playing, but if you enjoy playing a rogue with white gear, playing assassination spamming sinister strike with intellect gear, you'll be putting the other 9 players on your team at a severe disadvantage. (Btw int used to provide more damage with poisons for a brief moment. You can bet I was probably one of the first rogues to run around with int + spell power gear too xD)
With the introduction to multistrike, versatility, scalling, more BOAs, greater benefit from haste, less benefit from agility, less dodge, rogues are in a very crazy place. What was once cookie cutter bis is now more of a "I have no damn clue" type of bis. I've always been better with gearing towards desired play styles than running numbers to optimize damage output. I've crunched some numbers, discussed with others and at this point in time, I can say that in switching my play style I am quite confused myself as to which way rogues should be going in attempt to optimize their effectiveness in Warsong Gulch.
The bracket has been saying a new thing is "bis" every week. Obviously, people are confident in their sets which is why they declare it as "bis" but is it really "bis"? The answer probably is: right now there is no bis as everything for rogues is more situational than it has ever been. Also, all of these sets result in nearly the same outcome.
With that being said, I can confirm that two rogues are currently on top of the ball. Satin and Sylenthe. I have yet to have dialogue with Mungiekiller about his style of rogue, and I'd bet you can probably add him to the list. From what I've noticed, some rogues are stacking full versatility, others are stacking full crit, few are stacking full multistrike, and I've heard whisperings as others stacking full haste. Some are playing Sub, others combat and even some are playing as assassination.
When it comes to dropping people asap, I personally vote combat. Immediately into speccing combat, you get a bonus amount of AP. Sinister strike (although costly in energy) crits for 300s. Ambushes crit for over 1k. Throw on some bonus damage from blade flurry if you feel like it and there seems to be no ceiling for damage as a combat rogue. I personally enjoyed playing defensive sub much more than just 1 shotting efcs, but I'm looking to aid my team as much as possible for the times I queue on my bby rogue.
I spent roughly 9 hours today discussing gearing options etc and I found what I believe to be my best opinion on "cookie cutter" play style and gearing. After talking a lot with Satin about the bonuses to versatility, I agree that his set is probably as close to the best all around set you can get. A set that you can roll with throughout the entire game. The haste, he has helps with energy regen as well as more ef procs, his crit is over 33%, his attack power is over 170 ap, his versatility is maxed. No doubt he could drop someone in a second and no doubt he can pull damage in longer fights.
Sylenthe I believe may have a better set for destroying an EFC asap and it does not use faction speciffic gear. His attack power is roughly 200, his crit is roughly 33%, however, he is not fully stacking versatility.
I have a lot of tests to run before I have the data to convince myself on whether or not losing some versatility and gaining some attack power will provide more effective opening on an EFC. Until I have completely convinced myself that one is more effective for dropping EFCs over the other, I will be utilizing a play style I'm sure others may be doing as well. Right now I'll be doing a simple assessment as to my goal in the duration of a fight before I open. If I'm looking for a quick 1 shot and restealth, I'll be switching to a set similar to Sylenthe which favors crit and attack power slightly over versatility. If it is expected to be a longer fight, I'll be switching to one similar to Satin's which favors a balance of all stats while maximizing versatility. Satin has a great point in referring to versatility as it grants a bonus to all damage and does not rely on RNG like crit does. You may have a crit rating through the roof, but at the end of the day, rng is rng and you may not have a single crit in an opener.
Now this is where I get lost. I have not run the numbers and I I think I don't have the resources, patience or the time to test the potency of stacking something else for an opener such as full haste or full multistrike or possible combinations of those stats with crit or combinations of those stats with versatility. Someone may say haste is garbage and numerically it may prove so, but we cannot predict RNG and for all we know, maybe something like stacking haste and a versatility cloak would provide the best recorded openers for all we know. Highly doubt it doesn't, but I also doubt anyone's run conclusive testing. Who the heck knows? I don't, and being one of the few rogues who's always kind of been leading the pack in terms of trying out new gear or styles of gameplay I'm 20 seconds away from just throwing on my Lucky Fishing Hat and playing rogue how I want to be
If you have ran the numbers and eliminated all variables (for example keeping the same gear and only changing enchants etc) and been able to pinpoint the perfect set up or percent of stats to stack, please do enlighten us with the conclusive evidence. I hate math and regardless of if I'm stacking stamina and playing sub or not, I know I'll always be able to compete with other rogues who are following the hip trends of cookie cutter bis. But I'm personally curious as to the true perfect stat optimization.
For all I know, the following post by someone could be "we ran the numbers weeks ago, insert stat here stacked to x% and then insert stat here stacked to y% is most effective for dropping efcs"
Cataclysm brought many changes to 19 rogues. From this point on, rogues should be in stealth for the majority of the Warsong Gulch game with the exception of opening on an EFC with stacks or another class in attempt to 1 shot it. They don't perform horribly out of stealth, but with the amount of burst, dots, ranged dps and hard hitting melee, it provides for a very short lifespan for a rogue after popping out of stealth.
As of right now, there are 2 viable rogue play styles that I've experienced. One would be the combat rogue, 1 shotting people and regaining stealth asap. The other would be sub rogue, playing more defensively, dotting other rogues and looking to gain stealth asap. These two play styles are very different and provide different goals and outcomes. One is clearly more potent as an assassin role in Warsong Gulch. The other is a defensive route that can provide an enjoyable experience when utilized as a support role.
Through the years I've pioneered several styles of gameplay for a rogue (some said to be unviable) but I've had my reasons for each of them. Throughout cata I was running around as combat with crusader on my main rogue because people were not aware that SnD bugged out to reward many crusader procs a game which granted 100 strength. This granted us with 200 attack power bonus as it should not have which resulted in eviscerate crits for over 1.2k. My backup rogue (same name, race, gender, realm etc) was running around as assination with dual fiery stacking haste and looking for poison procs. Late in Cata I decided to show the bracket how they could play subtlety rogue a different way. Other than shadowstep ambushing everyone in mid, they could use shadowstep to aid in completing objectives (see my video). In MOP, the fiery / haste assassination rogue became the assassination EF proc rogue because haste no longer effected poison procs and crit influenced the new EF. As this became most popular, I was playing sub rogue, dotting everything, switching between elemental force and mending weapons which when paired with UD racial and recuperate was simply insane self healing.
However, as we've mentioned, with the abundance of rogues and the shortened Warsong timer, increased speed of debuffs, there simply is not enough room to fill Warsong pugs with rogue slots that do not prioritize on 1 shotting EFCs. At the end of the day, play what you enjoy playing, but if you enjoy playing a rogue with white gear, playing assassination spamming sinister strike with intellect gear, you'll be putting the other 9 players on your team at a severe disadvantage. (Btw int used to provide more damage with poisons for a brief moment. You can bet I was probably one of the first rogues to run around with int + spell power gear too xD)
With the introduction to multistrike, versatility, scalling, more BOAs, greater benefit from haste, less benefit from agility, less dodge, rogues are in a very crazy place. What was once cookie cutter bis is now more of a "I have no damn clue" type of bis. I've always been better with gearing towards desired play styles than running numbers to optimize damage output. I've crunched some numbers, discussed with others and at this point in time, I can say that in switching my play style I am quite confused myself as to which way rogues should be going in attempt to optimize their effectiveness in Warsong Gulch.
The bracket has been saying a new thing is "bis" every week. Obviously, people are confident in their sets which is why they declare it as "bis" but is it really "bis"? The answer probably is: right now there is no bis as everything for rogues is more situational than it has ever been. Also, all of these sets result in nearly the same outcome.
With that being said, I can confirm that two rogues are currently on top of the ball. Satin and Sylenthe. I have yet to have dialogue with Mungiekiller about his style of rogue, and I'd bet you can probably add him to the list. From what I've noticed, some rogues are stacking full versatility, others are stacking full crit, few are stacking full multistrike, and I've heard whisperings as others stacking full haste. Some are playing Sub, others combat and even some are playing as assassination.
When it comes to dropping people asap, I personally vote combat. Immediately into speccing combat, you get a bonus amount of AP. Sinister strike (although costly in energy) crits for 300s. Ambushes crit for over 1k. Throw on some bonus damage from blade flurry if you feel like it and there seems to be no ceiling for damage as a combat rogue. I personally enjoyed playing defensive sub much more than just 1 shotting efcs, but I'm looking to aid my team as much as possible for the times I queue on my bby rogue.
I spent roughly 9 hours today discussing gearing options etc and I found what I believe to be my best opinion on "cookie cutter" play style and gearing. After talking a lot with Satin about the bonuses to versatility, I agree that his set is probably as close to the best all around set you can get. A set that you can roll with throughout the entire game. The haste, he has helps with energy regen as well as more ef procs, his crit is over 33%, his attack power is over 170 ap, his versatility is maxed. No doubt he could drop someone in a second and no doubt he can pull damage in longer fights.
Sylenthe I believe may have a better set for destroying an EFC asap and it does not use faction speciffic gear. His attack power is roughly 200, his crit is roughly 33%, however, he is not fully stacking versatility.
I have a lot of tests to run before I have the data to convince myself on whether or not losing some versatility and gaining some attack power will provide more effective opening on an EFC. Until I have completely convinced myself that one is more effective for dropping EFCs over the other, I will be utilizing a play style I'm sure others may be doing as well. Right now I'll be doing a simple assessment as to my goal in the duration of a fight before I open. If I'm looking for a quick 1 shot and restealth, I'll be switching to a set similar to Sylenthe which favors crit and attack power slightly over versatility. If it is expected to be a longer fight, I'll be switching to one similar to Satin's which favors a balance of all stats while maximizing versatility. Satin has a great point in referring to versatility as it grants a bonus to all damage and does not rely on RNG like crit does. You may have a crit rating through the roof, but at the end of the day, rng is rng and you may not have a single crit in an opener.
Now this is where I get lost. I have not run the numbers and I I think I don't have the resources, patience or the time to test the potency of stacking something else for an opener such as full haste or full multistrike or possible combinations of those stats with crit or combinations of those stats with versatility. Someone may say haste is garbage and numerically it may prove so, but we cannot predict RNG and for all we know, maybe something like stacking haste and a versatility cloak would provide the best recorded openers for all we know. Highly doubt it doesn't, but I also doubt anyone's run conclusive testing. Who the heck knows? I don't, and being one of the few rogues who's always kind of been leading the pack in terms of trying out new gear or styles of gameplay I'm 20 seconds away from just throwing on my Lucky Fishing Hat and playing rogue how I want to be
If you have ran the numbers and eliminated all variables (for example keeping the same gear and only changing enchants etc) and been able to pinpoint the perfect set up or percent of stats to stack, please do enlighten us with the conclusive evidence. I hate math and regardless of if I'm stacking stamina and playing sub or not, I know I'll always be able to compete with other rogues who are following the hip trends of cookie cutter bis. But I'm personally curious as to the true perfect stat optimization.
For all I know, the following post by someone could be "we ran the numbers weeks ago, insert stat here stacked to x% and then insert stat here stacked to y% is most effective for dropping efcs"
What I really want to know is what you guys are doing, why you're doing it and whether or not you believe it truly is the best way to go. Have you ran any tests? Have you just built a set based on theory crafting? Have you crunched numbers? What do you really think is the bis set up for rogues?
I know it's situational. I know stacking either crit, ap, versatility, haste, multistrike, or whatever you prefer will still probably result in roughly the same outcome as long as the different possibilities are more or less the same specs and all know how to use thistle tea. Perhaps there is a minimal amount of burst required to drop an efc asap and perhaps all of these viable options are above that threshold so it doesn't make a single slice of difference. I know as a stam stacked sub rogue I had more than enough burst to drop efcs and I had 3.3k hp.
Please discuss because there are many rogues (myself included) whom would be interested in being able to divulge into your thought process behind your WOD Rogues!
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