RIP Aerie Peak Horde
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You are just saying on here what I said in PMs
Zatox
OG
It's not that we want out of AP, its that we want what AP was a year and a half ago. Just make a toon on AP and play for a few days and you'll notice what we're talking about very clearly. The only viable option is to create a new community with all of the like minded AP players who are disgusted with what it has become.
Lil
SV huntard
People always think I don't already have an AP or BWL or Vash toon ^-^ I know what AP H is like. AP A seems ALOT better and since horde is facerolling idk why alot of the old APers don't just go back on their ally toon and get outa AP H
MrTwinkenz
Feelz Good Man.
I don't see the big deal... ._.
Lil Throwed
Legend
Get owned noob.
Crystalpall
the F2P PvEr
IMO idea for new server is stupid, because things like that just dont work out.
Please, AP US is like a capital of F2P. Don't destroy it.
Please, AP US is like a capital of F2P. Don't destroy it.
Srs
Legend
I'm all out of likes, but I admire your moxie.
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Zatox
OG
And it can continue to be the capital of F2P, but there are a great number of players who wish to no longer be associated with it for more than obvious reasons. If you feel our decision for moving away is a stupid idea, then you're obviously not one of us and are not welcome on the new realm of our choosing.
Kiel Saxon Lane
Legend
Can I pls be one of u guys and join ur special club on exclusive server pls
Kincaide
Legend
Look... I skimmed this thread, to be honest, because I don't have time to wade through 13 pages of what people think is wrong with Aerie Peak. And I don't necessarily think that yet another long post from Kincaide is going to solve all the world's problems, but I think I owe it to my server to at least say something. If it means something to you guys, great. If it doesn't, that's okay too... you should each do what you think is right for yourselves.
The problem with Aerie Peak has never been that we had open recruitment. The problem is that, at some point, the "leaders" of Aerie Peak stopped politely enforcing the standards that Aerie Peak stood for. There are a lot of servers that advertise here on TI. There are two things that have always made Aerie Peak stand out: a high concentration of extremely talented players, and a high standard of behavior that was enforced alongside it.
See crappy people will come and go. And by crappy I'm not necessarily talking about playing skill, but about attitude. And what used to happen is that people would come to AP, they would be attracted by our high level of skill, and once they got there, they were exposed to the high standards of behavior we also enforced, and they would either be additionally attracted by that, or they would be repulsed and they would leave. That's how the community grew, but grew in the direction that -we- wanted because -we- were not afraid to stick to our standards.
Then a number of things changed, which changed that dynamic. One was that our bracket started becoming more and more infiltrated by 24s. Over time, F2Ps became so frustrated by constantly losing, that the standards of not playing alongside 24s slowly eroded. "They" were doing it, people would say, so it became more acceptable that "we" do it as well. What people forgot was that "they" ARE "we", just playing the other faction.
Which brings me to my second point. At some point in time, there became a cultural distinction between Aerie Peak Alliance and Aerie Peak Horde. This happened when I left the game for a long time... in fact I left the game BECAUSE this is what happened. It used to be that there was the utmost respect between our two factions, and we wouldn't think of the other as being "them", but rather as part of "us". It was in Alliance players' interest that things were going well on Horde, and vice versa. When that relationship became adversarial and people drew battle lines, instead of continuing to consider what was best for both sides and what was best for the server overall, I quit.
And that brings me to my third point. Something happened to all the true leaders of Aerie Peak around that time, where the enforcement of our standards just wasn't there anymore. Some people, like me, faded from the game. Some people conglomerated on one faction and started thinking of that faction separately from the whole server, and lost touch with maintaining the whole server's health. Some people found friends that they chose to identify with as a clique, and thought of that clique's interests over those of the server as a whole. At that point, we lost the critical mass of enforcement to where people who still cared about the server were not numerous enough to actually -do- anything about enforcement. We were overrun by "randoms" who didn't care--or in many cases, simply didn't know--about the standards we once held the server to.
I'm going to wrap this up because it's getting long and I don't want to get too annoyed thinking about all this. If you want to save this server and make it what it was, you have to do several things. One, you HAVE to start thinking of the whole server again, and not just your faction or your friends. The majority of the posts I saw as I flipped through this thread had the opposite attitude... "we're going to run off to another server and just play with a select group of friends" or "we're going to expect all of AP's talent to move to another server and start their hard-earned characters over again" etc. You know, you can do that if you want, but mark my words here because I'll stand by them: doing that is never going to result in another server becoming the great shining jewel that Aerie Peak once was.
Two, you have to start being willing to enforce the community standards that you want to live by. This task will be impossible if you haven't first done number one, because there simply won't be enough community-minded people online to shout down those that aren't following suit. Being willing to call people out, to /squelch them when they are talking crap about each other or generally being an ass, all these things take a critical mass of people who are backing you up, and they take a dedication to the server health that actually takes time and effort. I've often said that the community is more important to me than the game, and that's why I'm not as great a player as some of you. Back in the day, I might spend half my playing time just dealing with community issues, sending PMs to people about how to get better, why they shouldn't curse and rant in chat, why they need to bury the hatchet with some other person they're squabbling with... it takes work and dedication and if you're not willing to do it, nothing will change.
Third, and perhaps most important, if you want things to change, you yourself must be impeccable with your word and deed. You cannot expect to be a contributor to the health of Aerie Peak if you are lax with your own dedication to the standards, if you pick on people or are an ass to people because you disagree with their opinions, if you troll or flame or are an ass on the forums... If you play on Aerie Peak and you care about the server, you are an ambassador for your server in everything you do. Your focus determines your reality. Every single time someone sees your actions or reads your words, they believe that that is what they should come to expect from Aerie Peak as a whole. Why do you think I work so hard to be so thoughtful and fair and tempered in my posts? I'm not perfect of course, but I do always think that I am reflecting, and thus enforcing, my own view of what I want Aerie Peak--and in truth, the whole TI F2P community--to be.
Without a large group of like-minded people doing the same thing, we will never be able to define community standards. I've watched this hurt Aerie Peak's reputation, and lately I've watched it hurt the entire F2P bracket's reputation by the infighting and abhorrent rudeness I've seen on these boards. No one can talk about the loss of standards unless they themselves are living up to the standards they want to see enforced. It starts with each and every one of you. You can run off to your cliques and boutique servers if you want, and that is a totally valid choice if you think that's what's best for you... I'm not here to judge. But if you want--if anywhere in that heart of yours, you still desire--to have the kind of community we once had, YOU have to change and YOU have to make it happen.
That's all I've got.
The problem with Aerie Peak has never been that we had open recruitment. The problem is that, at some point, the "leaders" of Aerie Peak stopped politely enforcing the standards that Aerie Peak stood for. There are a lot of servers that advertise here on TI. There are two things that have always made Aerie Peak stand out: a high concentration of extremely talented players, and a high standard of behavior that was enforced alongside it.
See crappy people will come and go. And by crappy I'm not necessarily talking about playing skill, but about attitude. And what used to happen is that people would come to AP, they would be attracted by our high level of skill, and once they got there, they were exposed to the high standards of behavior we also enforced, and they would either be additionally attracted by that, or they would be repulsed and they would leave. That's how the community grew, but grew in the direction that -we- wanted because -we- were not afraid to stick to our standards.
Then a number of things changed, which changed that dynamic. One was that our bracket started becoming more and more infiltrated by 24s. Over time, F2Ps became so frustrated by constantly losing, that the standards of not playing alongside 24s slowly eroded. "They" were doing it, people would say, so it became more acceptable that "we" do it as well. What people forgot was that "they" ARE "we", just playing the other faction.
Which brings me to my second point. At some point in time, there became a cultural distinction between Aerie Peak Alliance and Aerie Peak Horde. This happened when I left the game for a long time... in fact I left the game BECAUSE this is what happened. It used to be that there was the utmost respect between our two factions, and we wouldn't think of the other as being "them", but rather as part of "us". It was in Alliance players' interest that things were going well on Horde, and vice versa. When that relationship became adversarial and people drew battle lines, instead of continuing to consider what was best for both sides and what was best for the server overall, I quit.
And that brings me to my third point. Something happened to all the true leaders of Aerie Peak around that time, where the enforcement of our standards just wasn't there anymore. Some people, like me, faded from the game. Some people conglomerated on one faction and started thinking of that faction separately from the whole server, and lost touch with maintaining the whole server's health. Some people found friends that they chose to identify with as a clique, and thought of that clique's interests over those of the server as a whole. At that point, we lost the critical mass of enforcement to where people who still cared about the server were not numerous enough to actually -do- anything about enforcement. We were overrun by "randoms" who didn't care--or in many cases, simply didn't know--about the standards we once held the server to.
I'm going to wrap this up because it's getting long and I don't want to get too annoyed thinking about all this. If you want to save this server and make it what it was, you have to do several things. One, you HAVE to start thinking of the whole server again, and not just your faction or your friends. The majority of the posts I saw as I flipped through this thread had the opposite attitude... "we're going to run off to another server and just play with a select group of friends" or "we're going to expect all of AP's talent to move to another server and start their hard-earned characters over again" etc. You know, you can do that if you want, but mark my words here because I'll stand by them: doing that is never going to result in another server becoming the great shining jewel that Aerie Peak once was.
Two, you have to start being willing to enforce the community standards that you want to live by. This task will be impossible if you haven't first done number one, because there simply won't be enough community-minded people online to shout down those that aren't following suit. Being willing to call people out, to /squelch them when they are talking crap about each other or generally being an ass, all these things take a critical mass of people who are backing you up, and they take a dedication to the server health that actually takes time and effort. I've often said that the community is more important to me than the game, and that's why I'm not as great a player as some of you. Back in the day, I might spend half my playing time just dealing with community issues, sending PMs to people about how to get better, why they shouldn't curse and rant in chat, why they need to bury the hatchet with some other person they're squabbling with... it takes work and dedication and if you're not willing to do it, nothing will change.
Third, and perhaps most important, if you want things to change, you yourself must be impeccable with your word and deed. You cannot expect to be a contributor to the health of Aerie Peak if you are lax with your own dedication to the standards, if you pick on people or are an ass to people because you disagree with their opinions, if you troll or flame or are an ass on the forums... If you play on Aerie Peak and you care about the server, you are an ambassador for your server in everything you do. Your focus determines your reality. Every single time someone sees your actions or reads your words, they believe that that is what they should come to expect from Aerie Peak as a whole. Why do you think I work so hard to be so thoughtful and fair and tempered in my posts? I'm not perfect of course, but I do always think that I am reflecting, and thus enforcing, my own view of what I want Aerie Peak--and in truth, the whole TI F2P community--to be.
Without a large group of like-minded people doing the same thing, we will never be able to define community standards. I've watched this hurt Aerie Peak's reputation, and lately I've watched it hurt the entire F2P bracket's reputation by the infighting and abhorrent rudeness I've seen on these boards. No one can talk about the loss of standards unless they themselves are living up to the standards they want to see enforced. It starts with each and every one of you. You can run off to your cliques and boutique servers if you want, and that is a totally valid choice if you think that's what's best for you... I'm not here to judge. But if you want--if anywhere in that heart of yours, you still desire--to have the kind of community we once had, YOU have to change and YOU have to make it happen.
That's all I've got.
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danny glover
Officially Retired
i can't believe you losers are still arguing about this.
Kincaide
Legend
I'm going to make a follow-up post because I don't think I've made the following point clear:
It would be just as much work, if not more, to build a new house than to clean the one you've already got.
You're going to have to establish, enforce, and personally live up to community standards in either case, and you're going to have to deal with those who don't follow suit in either case. It seems to me it would be much easier to stop moaning about Aerie Peak's current condition, and stop trying to convince its good people to leave, and just cowboy up and do the work to make it what it once was. And then have the dedication to stick around and keep doing it. You're going to have to work either way, might as well bloom where you're planted.
It would be just as much work, if not more, to build a new house than to clean the one you've already got.
You're going to have to establish, enforce, and personally live up to community standards in either case, and you're going to have to deal with those who don't follow suit in either case. It seems to me it would be much easier to stop moaning about Aerie Peak's current condition, and stop trying to convince its good people to leave, and just cowboy up and do the work to make it what it once was. And then have the dedication to stick around and keep doing it. You're going to have to work either way, might as well bloom where you're planted.
KainUFC
Legend
The community leaders didnt stop enforcing, they stopped logging in because they got bored of the bracket. And I dont blame them because I did the same thing.
Also, respected members of the community regularly behaved boorishly to others, I feel like you guys are really romanticizing the glory days here.
Also, respected members of the community regularly behaved boorishly to others, I feel like you guys are really romanticizing the glory days here.
OP
OP
Activate
Legend
The number of players who need help on AP is staggering. It would take an enormous effort and a large amount of people to accomplish. Not to mention the time. Many players are already burnt out on it and have resigned from such roles. They'd rather just stick with who they know. In part I can't say I blame them. Most of the work people put in goes unnoticed and unnappreciated. With a small group to start and a manageable influx of players, progress would be steady with a higer chance of long term success. It really comes down to how many are willing to take up such a project. Also, new members should learn how to assume those roles to lessen the overall work load.
I agree with your previous points regarding the us vs them mentality. AP H vs A, AP vs bracket etc. The only 'them' should be 24s and negative attitudes. The issue is how much work is necessary to get things running smoothly again. We have to start with small attainable goals, reach them and move forward towards the larger goals.
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Waterworks
Moooderator
Shoutout to Kincaide who basically said everything I was going to without even reading every single post like I did.
The biggest problem I've seen here is that the everyone is perfectly capable of poking holes in what AP is now, although nobody seems willing to do anything about it. Some of you "seasoned vets/pros/old-timers/etc." seem more willing to run away to another server and let AP dissolve into a cesspool of players with either A) Bad attitudes or B) Lack of skill/experience in the game. I'm not really a vocal person on the forum/in game but trust me, I've been around the F2P community long enough to know that what you're proposing isn't the solution. If you want AP to grow in a positive manner, get in there and help people learn, teach them the rights/wrongs of what the F2P community is and what we do. People learn from experience. You really have no justification in complaining about how bad the situation is if you have no intentions of improving it. Banning the idiots alone won't do it.
I, for one, am perfectly happy in where I've found myself, basically alone on a couple of servers, with the exception of a couple people (I won't name names but he's a Swooper dude), pugging it up and enjoying the game for what it is. I'll admit that I don't have the time, energy, or to be honest, the internet connection, to be on AP working it out with people, not everybody does. If, however, you do, there are two options as I see it: get involved or get over it.
The biggest problem I've seen here is that the everyone is perfectly capable of poking holes in what AP is now, although nobody seems willing to do anything about it. Some of you "seasoned vets/pros/old-timers/etc." seem more willing to run away to another server and let AP dissolve into a cesspool of players with either A) Bad attitudes or B) Lack of skill/experience in the game. I'm not really a vocal person on the forum/in game but trust me, I've been around the F2P community long enough to know that what you're proposing isn't the solution. If you want AP to grow in a positive manner, get in there and help people learn, teach them the rights/wrongs of what the F2P community is and what we do. People learn from experience. You really have no justification in complaining about how bad the situation is if you have no intentions of improving it. Banning the idiots alone won't do it.
I, for one, am perfectly happy in where I've found myself, basically alone on a couple of servers, with the exception of a couple people (I won't name names but he's a Swooper dude), pugging it up and enjoying the game for what it is. I'll admit that I don't have the time, energy, or to be honest, the internet connection, to be on AP working it out with people, not everybody does. If, however, you do, there are two options as I see it: get involved or get over it.
Frostymax
Legend
i cannot begin to explain how much i hated the elitest attitude held by the oldest characters on both AP H and A when i first arrived. some of them left and some of them took me in after long enough but this would not happen if the server was run in a manner that countless posts by myself and activate have suggested. How can one call a community based on respect and honorable play to simply be "elitist". elitism looks down upon and shuns players based usually on skill level and the abused being new to the bracket or realm. Having standards does not make you and elitist, one cannot hope to have a great community without a high standard. there are multitudes of opportunities for players with the wrong attitudes and motives to play elsewhere.
.having standards does not make you elitist, it indicates that you value your endeavor. players would be rejected for inappropriate behavior such as trolling, farming, excessive negative emote spamming, and probably a few specific rules instituted at the founding of the community, not for simply being new, not having all the best gear, or not being skill capped. the last three things i mentioned are the primary aspects of elitism in wow, and are all things that can easily be changed about a player.
can you honestly sit there and tell me you think its merely "elitest" for players to seek a playstyle and environment they enjoy, there are HUNDREDS of places to be average, if u dont want to meet such BASIC things as being a decent human being and reasonably skilled, too bad.
would u be calling out people who where trying to create a farming only, trolling required community as being elitist? why must you condemn something merely b/c its standards and expectations are different then anothers
Frostymax
Legend
you do raise some valid points, however a smaller community is easier to train teach and help. i feel AP would require treading water for months and months to make even the slightest difference, but mostly i like the small group, skype required part. i enjoy the added coordination and convenience it adds to the game and with a *realatively* small community, at least a first, it would be possible to have the whole channel in calls without it being crowded.
elitism was primarily a problem on AP b/c it was advertised as a come one come all, yet all new players where not treated with kindness and welcome
if a group is started WITH THE SPECIFIC INTENTION of not including everybody, then its a players own fault for rolling there if uninvited.
i enjoy the "cliques" and groups of preferred players ive formed on AP ally recently, and in past times on both sides. frankly AP isnt the place for the type of tight community being suggested. there is no reason why creating something new must destroy APs final hope. of course i support rebuilding AP and i try to do my part, but players do tend to build bonds with others and form groups, this sort of thing seems harmful in a large community like on AP so it couldnt hurt to create it elsewhere. im not asking every skilled player ever to just abandon AP, just assist in giving life to a new community, which frankly wouldnt as similar to the original AP as you might think, while continuing to build AP into what it was.
i might be on a limb here activate, but i dont picture this intended new community as being entirely like AP horde(or ally) during their glory days
