Premade Discussion
- Thread starter Ertai
- Start date
Ertai
OG
vapor said:
That's very on topic. Premades are scheduled ahead of time (weeks in advance sometimes). Everyone on both teams uses vent, and you que by coordinating between guilds in vent. Sometimes both teams will try queing at the same time, other times one will wait out the average wait time before the other side ques. You continue queing until you both pop for the same game (you leave que if you pop but it's not against the other team).
Casinex said:
I wouldn't say it's that people need to be told what's right and what isn't, seeing as even quality guilds run different teams and strategies. It's basically that a large majority of people never do premades so they don't have any knowledge of how much differently they're played than normal pugs are.
Hell, the reason I first made my Priest was because I wanted to premade but a resto Druid wasn't quite the best fit for my guild's line-up.
WSG
OG
Evocate said:
"EFC is charging to the cap spot! He only has one man to beat, our Mage!"
Do you want your mage to:
A) Attempt to take down the EFC on his own when he will fail miserably and land on his a**.
B) Attempt to SLOW the EFC so the real players can bring him down?
Mage = Kicker.
To complete the football analogy:
Priests = QBs (previously establised)
Shamans = Defensive Ends (anit-priests)
Mages = Kickers
Warriors = Fullbacks. Big brutes that charge into the enemy. Hamstrings really let the lighter padded Rogues to do their damage so...
Rogues = Halfbacks.
Druid = Kick Returner. No other class can run like these guys.
Paladin = meh. Cornerback I guess, they get way too much credit for what they do.
Warlocks = Tight End. Fear has a short range requiring them to get fairly into fairly short yardage situations.
Hunters = Refs. They have way more influence over the game than they deserve and almost go so far as to ruin it. Everyone hates the refs. Conc Shot = "Flag on the play, this one's coming back"
Quara
OG
Hunters on D are fairly counterproductive. Hunters want to do damage. Lots of damage. True you can Wingclip/Conc to try and slow them down, but that's really narrow compared to what mages can accomplish. If you want more CC, play with double mage. It's how the pros do it.
Hunters can only wingclip at melee range, which means they can't hope to slow the whole team down (unless they're bad.) Concussive is, what, 3 seconds? With a Cooldown. And one hunter pewpewing away on defense is pretty much worthless if you're running a kiting D. Mages are so good because they can control multiple people - sheep is a complete lock, while frost nova/that freeze-proc completely stop melee and frost bolts can shoot at a distance. And if your argument against them is that their stuff can be dispelled, then your de is doing something wrong (aka you should be able to lock their priest.) Running 2 priests on O has become a popular choice now, and I honestly think the proper response is to keep 2 mages on D.
Then again, strategies tend to work best depending on the players you have available to you. For example, <DEM> has 4 really good priests and so we take advantage of that (well, sometimes.)
EDIT: Oh and shamans aren't that great at shutting down priests. That's rogue territory.
Hunters can only wingclip at melee range, which means they can't hope to slow the whole team down (unless they're bad.) Concussive is, what, 3 seconds? With a Cooldown. And one hunter pewpewing away on defense is pretty much worthless if you're running a kiting D. Mages are so good because they can control multiple people - sheep is a complete lock, while frost nova/that freeze-proc completely stop melee and frost bolts can shoot at a distance. And if your argument against them is that their stuff can be dispelled, then your de is doing something wrong (aka you should be able to lock their priest.) Running 2 priests on O has become a popular choice now, and I honestly think the proper response is to keep 2 mages on D.
Then again, strategies tend to work best depending on the players you have available to you. For example, <DEM> has 4 really good priests and so we take advantage of that (well, sometimes.)
EDIT: Oh and shamans aren't that great at shutting down priests. That's rogue territory.
Diiesel
OG
Quara said:
I disagree, hunters work well on either side. Mages sheep is easily dispelled however a wingclip from a hunter isnt. Also a full mana with around 2000 mana or more can output some serious dps while kiting, a mage cannot.
Edit, No this doesnt mean I think mages arnt as good as a hunter on D, simply saying both work.
I honestly think there is a counter team for every team, and its all about how its played and how well everyone actually works together. A bed setup of good players will down a good setup of bad players everytime.
Quara
OG
I think I touched on every point you made there:
-A mage can sheep the priest. if there are two, it's still easy to catch one in a sheep LoS. if the mage is good, he can do work.
-wingclip is melee range. which is bad.
-You don't want dps. One hunter won't bring enough deeps to actually put any relevant pressure on their O. Even if he's in full AP gear - and if that's the case, he's probably just going to run oom/get raped by the O.
-The fact is, ANY other class would do a lot more useful things - dps is at just about the bottom of a de's priorities.
EDIT: In other words, obviously a hunter is 'useful.' Any class will be better than having 9 players. The fact is, though, any other class would accomplish a lot more on D (okay, maybe not rogue or warrior. lock? eh.) I'd much rather use X-1 players on D and flip that hunter to O where ALL his abilities will be relevant. Why cut one of your players relevance in half?
-A mage can sheep the priest. if there are two, it's still easy to catch one in a sheep LoS. if the mage is good, he can do work.
-wingclip is melee range. which is bad.
-You don't want dps. One hunter won't bring enough deeps to actually put any relevant pressure on their O. Even if he's in full AP gear - and if that's the case, he's probably just going to run oom/get raped by the O.
-The fact is, ANY other class would do a lot more useful things - dps is at just about the bottom of a de's priorities.
EDIT: In other words, obviously a hunter is 'useful.' Any class will be better than having 9 players. The fact is, though, any other class would accomplish a lot more on D (okay, maybe not rogue or warrior. lock? eh.) I'd much rather use X-1 players on D and flip that hunter to O where ALL his abilities will be relevant. Why cut one of your players relevance in half?
WSG
OG
Quara said:
What? Have you never played against a good shaman?
Again:
Psychic Scream nullified by Tremor Totem.
PW: Shield, PW: Fort, Renew nullified by Purge.
Cast bar spells shut down by ranged interrupt with 2 sec lockout on 6 sec CD.
That's before patch 3.2 which is buffing shamans by alot.
kidneypopper
OG
pizza played as a hunter on D really well. it's okay i guess, legit strat but it can stretch games out longer than they need to be.
best set up is
hunter stun pet
hunter stun pet
hunter stun pet
rogue or hunter stun pet
warrior or shaman or hunter stun pet
priest
priest
mage
pally or shaman or hunter stun pet (i prefer pally)
druid
game over
also all the players need to be not bad. not bad players are better than gear and superior class mix
best set up is
hunter stun pet
hunter stun pet
hunter stun pet
rogue or hunter stun pet
warrior or shaman or hunter stun pet
priest
priest
mage
pally or shaman or hunter stun pet (i prefer pally)
druid
game over
also all the players need to be not bad. not bad players are better than gear and superior class mix
Twinkytoes
OG
Unstablle said:
Hey there .
Like I mentioned earlier in this thread there is really no "best" class set-up for offense or defense.
I can prove this as a lot of guilds have tried hunter on defense after they saw how successful we have been with that set-up. Those guilds all lost their games with our strategy. It's the players on the classes, not just the classes themselves.
Certain players will make a not so useful class...useful or the other way around.
I can prove this as a lot of guilds have tried hunter on defense after they saw how successful we have been with that set-up. Those guilds all lost their games with our strategy. It's the players on the classes, not just the classes themselves.
Certain players will make a not so useful class...useful or the other way around.
Ertai
OG
Pizza said:
No one denies that a team of "inferior" class make-up but better players will probably beat a better designed, less skilled opponent, but that's not really the point of the discussion. People are discussing what you would ideally run as a premade team if you had your pick of the absolute best players of every class.
Lot's of strategies work, some always work and some will get countered by your opponent next time around and you're left to come right back with something new and unexpected.
Going back a few posts to the idea of two Mage D. I can see how it would be effective, but two mages are for the most part redundant, and one Mage can do pretty much everything two can do (besides double Poly, of course). I've never run that kinda D so I can't say all this with certainty, but it seems like another class bringing a unique set of abilites would be better suited in place of one of the Mages.
Twinkytoes
OG
Grunge said:
Hes going to go far with that name.
Quara
OG
Once again, of course it can work. If you have a good hunter (Pizza) who knows what he's doing, he'll do a good job on D. But I do think, since we're talking 'ideal' here, that if you replaced the hunter with another class, played by someone equally as skilled, you would be better off.
Ertai, I see where you're coming from. It would seem like the two mages would just trip over one another, but that's not the case. It takes a lot of skill and coordination (and not just calling out stuff - both mages have to know exactly what they're to do,) but if you have two mages that are experienced enough I think it's your best bet.
As Pizza put it, though, "It's the players on the classes, not just the classes themselves. "
Have you ever played against a good priest?
Psychic Scream will be cast when there's no Tremor around/after you destroy it/right after the totem ticks/used as an interrupt at the very least.
Purge is powerful, yes, but isn't really relevant to the 'shutting down' part. True, it does hinder the life of the FC, but so does damage.
Shock is not a lock. It can be played around. Again, obviously it's useful and relevant, but you can't expect to 'lock down' a priest just by a shaman's shock alone. A good priest will just wait for you to FS/ES him or another, anyway. Shock definitely does help lock casters down, though, but not by 'emselves.
A rogue will be able to put out a lot more damage on the priest and, especially now that priests don't usually have more than 1k hp, that kind of pressure will force him to either heal himself/draw heals from others/run away.
Ertai, I see where you're coming from. It would seem like the two mages would just trip over one another, but that's not the case. It takes a lot of skill and coordination (and not just calling out stuff - both mages have to know exactly what they're to do,) but if you have two mages that are experienced enough I think it's your best bet.
As Pizza put it, though, "It's the players on the classes, not just the classes themselves. "
Have you ever played against a good priest?
Psychic Scream will be cast when there's no Tremor around/after you destroy it/right after the totem ticks/used as an interrupt at the very least.
Purge is powerful, yes, but isn't really relevant to the 'shutting down' part. True, it does hinder the life of the FC, but so does damage.
Shock is not a lock. It can be played around. Again, obviously it's useful and relevant, but you can't expect to 'lock down' a priest just by a shaman's shock alone. A good priest will just wait for you to FS/ES him or another, anyway. Shock definitely does help lock casters down, though, but not by 'emselves.
A rogue will be able to put out a lot more damage on the priest and, especially now that priests don't usually have more than 1k hp, that kind of pressure will force him to either heal himself/draw heals from others/run away.