Official Epic Upgrade Bragging Thread (Warning: Jealousy/Salt)

[Eddie]

@Eddie use it over deadskull

oh I will just didnt have on cause of enchants lol

 

[raziel83]

Weird points but it would be nice if anyone could shed more light on the math and/or testing behind secondaries. I know this stuff happened much earlier in the xpac... I haven't done much digging since because I believe in the numbers I saw & my own subjective experience... vers is good.

But still, no point dragging the guy if nobody will back it up. Nothing wrong with (very aggresively) asking questions.

Literally no one can provide any math or evidence as to why vers is better. Most people's argument is just....because.

Some classes are lacking certain passives that interact with secondaries sure, but that doesn't automatically make vers better.

 

[Goesid]

Literally no one can provide any math or evidence as to why vers is better. Most people's argument is just....because.

Some classes are lacking certain passives that interact with secondaries sure, but that doesn't automatically make vers better.

Then use crit you lunatic. You don't have to listen go nuts, go gear your crit resto druid.

 

[raziel83]

Then use crit you lunatic. You don't have to listen go nuts, go gear your crit resto druid.

More personal attacks. That's the default strategy of people who can't prove their claims. Discredit the person asking for proof.

 

[Chainz]

Literally no one can provide any math or evidence as to why vers is better. Most people's argument is just....because.

Some classes are lacking certain passives that interact with secondaries sure, but that doesn't automatically make vers better.

The reason it's better is because it's a flatout dmg/heal increase and a dmg reduc all in 1 stat. Crit is only 150% of it's worth in instanced pvp and you'd only take it once u have maxed out ur ideal versa and haste for druid in this case. How dense are you in ur brain for thinking that icyveins and endgame is a good comparison to low lvls? It's 2 completely different things.

Edit: "endgame pvp players use crit btw"
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/character/eu/onyxia/corkiy
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/character/eu/stormscale/lazergrabben

And even me proving ur endgame statement wrong still doesn't change the fact that it has nothing to do with low lvls.

 

[raziel83]

The reason it's better is because it's a flatout dmg/heal increase and a dmg reduc all in 1 stat. Crit is only 150% of it's worth in instanced pvp and you'd only take it once u have maxed out ur ideal versa and haste for druid in this case. How dense are you in ur brain for thinking that icyveins and endgame is a good comparison to low lvls?

I didn't know we were only talking about druids. Yeah I'd go vers / haste for druids too. I was talking about vers more generally. Nm then, carry on.

 

[Goesid]

More personal attacks. That's the default strategy of people who can't prove their claims. Discredit the person asking for proof.

Personal attack? Calm down snowflake lol. Im sayin: I DONT CARE. IF YOU THINK VERS SUCKS AND CRIT IS THE WAY TO GO. GO FOR IT, I DONT CARE. Hopefully you can read caps better than lower case.

 

[Eddie]

Guess im making a ret set

 

[Nurf]

View attachment 11083 View attachment 11084 Guess im making a ret set

Grats man, some good upgrades you got today. Also, your rogue is looking sick!

 

[Eddie]

Grats man, some good upgrades you got today. Also, your rogue is looking sick!

thank you <3 really thankful I got lucky on my twinks. would've hurt my heart having to reroll

 

[Grimzee]

Then use crit you lunatic. You don't have to listen go nuts, go gear your crit resto druid.

Truthfully it depends on you play style and I personally like crit cuz I run the corans coaster. it gives ap off crits and I ended up with +35 dps over my vers build on a rogue but I can see where vers is better for balanced and restro druid for more consistency in heals and dot pressure

 

[Imnotabelf]

Why though? Do you even know why it's 'useless'? Have you done the math? Have you done the simulations? Or are you just repeating what others have said?

Why is it that icy veins stat priorities don't list vers as number 1 for every spec? Why is it that rank 1 pvpers don't all stack vers for arena and rated bgs? Why is it that the best players in the world, for both pve and pvp, don't all stack vers without exception? I wonder....

I dunno, when my arcane blast crits someone for 960 damage and kills them through heals, it doesn't feel useless.

IcyVeins is NOT what you should be looking at for 19/20/29... The way stats scale and a ton of other shit is vastly different between a 20 and 120.

Vers is very, very good at lower levels where it's easy to hit 15-20%.

 

[Eclipsis]

If anyone wants some ham fisted napkin math.

From my current perspective, as a level 19 arcane mage, and as part of the endgame theorycrafting team for the shadow priest section of WarcraftPriests.

1 vers = 1 damage on a 4 stack arcane blast
1 int = 2 damage on a 4 stack arcane blast

2 haste ~= 0.01s gcd reduction

3 haste ~= 0.02s gcd reduction

1 crit = 0.3% increased chance of critical strike (Critical strike damage being reduced in pvp)

Vers is indeed very very good for arcane, as can be observed just by whacking a dummy and swapping your gear around. I also enjoy having a fair amount of haste, though it is less overall arcane blast dps, to get my cast time on polymorph down to something that can more reliably catch druids between global / not be outranged during the cast time.

 

[necroaqua]

Why though? Do you even know why it's 'useless'? Have you done the math? Have you done the simulations? Or are you just repeating what others have said?

Why is it that icy veins stat priorities don't list vers as number 1 for every spec? Why is it that rank 1 pvpers don't all stack vers for arena and rated bgs? Why is it that the best players in the world, for both pve and pvp, don't all stack vers without exception? I wonder....

I dunno, when my arcane blast crits someone for 960 damage and kills them through heals, it doesn't feel useless.

It will obviously depend on the class/spec/level/playstyle - but typically most low levels don't have the spell interactions that push end game classes towards a certain weighting.

Without those, we typically have a few things that come into play

* Crit is 150% damage in pvp instead of 200% damage
* Haste usually means better, but smoother damage
* Verse increases damage, but also healing and reduces damage taken

Crit is nerfed because burst is very powerful in pvp - even with a nerf, many classes like it. Typically those that die fast (or have short time on target) and those that want to burst through heals. Since crit is binary (either you crit or you dont) - it tends to see diminishing returns on usefulness in pvp, which has limited time-on-target. Even with the nerf, it is still very useful to try to burst through heals.

Haste is often preferred on many casters because it reduces cast time and increases DoT/HoT ticks. For healers, getting a cast off that much sooner is often preferred to getting a bit crit. Crit tends to overheal a lot, though it can be clutch occasionally. It can be difficult to get haste to a point where it really makes a difference with cast times though.

Verse is almost always preferred, since it increases offense and defense. It increases all damage, all heals, and reduces all incoming damage. Its also easier to get a high % for verse. The damage reduction is pretty powerful too. Reducing incoming damage by 5+% is pretty significant and scales with your stam.

All secondaries affect things like elemental force and hidden satyr. But with crit nerfed to 150% and haste not really increasing the proc rate much, verse tends to be the most visible thing for procs. Especially before the ele force nerfs, because it was so OP and increasing OP by a % is good stuff.

Generally verse tends to be the stat of choice, with a choice between haste/crit coming after that.

So crit isn't worthless - but verse tends to be the stat of choice early on. Certain classes like haste or crit more, but they almost all benefit a significant bit from verse. As you go up in level, classes start getting different interactions, so you'll see things like fury at 39 where 20% haste/10% verse/10% crit is a common build.

 

[LZ]

Literally no one can provide any math or evidence as to why vers is better. Most people's argument is just....because.

Some classes are lacking certain passives that interact with secondaries sure, but that doesn't automatically make vers better.

not really

might come off as "just because" because it's hard to even nail down- in hard evidence- all the reasons vers is better for almost all situations...

@necroaqua in some thread the other day:

You're partially right, but don't have the whole story.

Yes - the more primary stat you have, the more valuable verse is (and also haste/crit). However its not quite as accurate as just taking the primary stat - since it really depends on where the damage comes from. Different moves have different AP/SP ratios... ...Some take weapon damage into account (for physical classes) - which can throw another wrench in the calculations.

And then there are things like ele force and weapon procs - which are typically not affected by AP, but are affected by verse/haste/crit. Note that hidden satyr IS affected by AP/SP - but the legion neck enchants tend to be the only ones.

Ultimately it makes for rather annoying complex calculations which depend on your class, spec, playstyle and even other gear you're wearing. It can also depend on armor or resistances that your opponent might have. It'd be awesome to have those spreadsheets, but since we don't, we're left with general guidelines and rules of thumb (like 1 agi = 2-3 verse, and fury warriors want 20% haste, etc).

but yeah do ya thing and feel out a build yourself, nobody is dying over your secondary stat priorities

 

[Chops]

Literally no one can provide any math or evidence as to why vers is better. Most people's argument is just....because.

Its just 5th grade level math here, and with the caveat that WoW pvp is slightly more complicated...

Lets use some good round numbers and suppose I have an attack that does 100 damage.

With 10% vers, every attack does 110 damage.
With 10% crit, every attack does 100 dmg, until 1 in ten crits for 150.

Over the course of 10 attacks, 10% vers will do 1100 damage. 10% crit will do 1050.

"But Chops, everyone starts with 5% crit! So its not that simple. Its just easier to stack crit!"

Fair, fair...

Lets extend this to twenty attacks and say you added 10% crit (for a total of 15%) or 10% vers.

Over the course of 20 attacks, 10% vers will do 2265 damage (one crit did 165 damage, remember everyone has 5% crit)
Over the course of 20 attacks, 15% crit will do 2150 damage (3 crits for 150 each)

In fact, you'd need 6 crits in 20 attacks to beat 10% vers. Thats over 25% crit. You'd have to add 20% crit to your kit to beat 10% vers.

Again, wow pvp is a bit more complicated than this. Sometimes, you get lucky and crit someone three times in a row because you've stacked 30% crit and things worked out. Maybe you play a class with a short engagement window and a silly rotation *cough*ret*cough* so big crits are a bit more valuable. Whatever. But heres some very basic math to demonstrate just how powerful vers can be.

 

[Tom Ganks]

spirit is prob the best secondary to stack

 

[pallyallah]

Just found a level 26 epic goblin power shovel on some random low pop server AH, it says it can only be elvel 34 on wowhead meaning it scaled down to 26 - is it possible this could be scaled to 20?

 

[Chops]

Just found a level 26 epic goblin power shovel on some random low pop server AH, it says it can only be elvel 34 on wowhead meaning it scaled down to 26 - is it possible this could be scaled to 20?

No, wont scale down past the level floor of the zone. iirc, thats a northern stv drop, so... level 25? I think? is the lowest itll go.

 

[pallyallah]

No, wont scale down past the level floor of the zone. iirc, thats a northern stv drop, so... level 25? I think? is the lowest itll go.

For sure? I am not fully sure how this all works, because I even personally have an elemental mage staff epic with a 38 required level, but the only zones that drop this are from 50+ ones. Any ideas? its kind of interesting searching for breakthroughs