Growing and protecting and growing the 20-24 bracket
- Thread starter Crit
- Start date
Swoops
Legend
Just curious Crit, how often do you guys actually get very good games/are they worth all the time spent in snoozefests against teams whose HP barely combines to reach yours? I know you play 20s and f2p also, but have you considered running a group of p2p-twinked 20 alts in Horde Invasion? It could be good for both the quality of your games and the majority of the players in the bracket. With a good group of players (which you definitely do have), running 20's would give you a much higher proportion of close games and help eliminate (well, diminish) a lot of the negativity that exists here. High end enchants, BoA cloak/helm/legs and 225 professions combined with a usual skill imbalance wouldn't put you at too much of a disadvantage with opposing 24s.
That being said, I completely understand and respect what you're trying to build here. The queue times are already in place, and a great motivator to get people into the bracket. However, I'm just not sure that you'll ever truly find what you're looking for at level 24. Maxing everything about your character is the spirit of twinking, but its still a game we play to have fun. You don't seem to enjoy the faceroll games any more than I do, so p2p 20s could give you the quality of games without the helplessness of a f2p against a 24 twinked hunter. Plus, you have to be at least a little bit sick of running Gnomer, right??
Anyways, I always enjoy running into you guys on both sides. Your attidudes and intentions are great, keep up the positivity and hard work.
That being said, I completely understand and respect what you're trying to build here. The queue times are already in place, and a great motivator to get people into the bracket. However, I'm just not sure that you'll ever truly find what you're looking for at level 24. Maxing everything about your character is the spirit of twinking, but its still a game we play to have fun. You don't seem to enjoy the faceroll games any more than I do, so p2p 20s could give you the quality of games without the helplessness of a f2p against a 24 twinked hunter. Plus, you have to be at least a little bit sick of running Gnomer, right??
Anyways, I always enjoy running into you guys on both sides. Your attidudes and intentions are great, keep up the positivity and hard work.
OP
OP
Crit
OG
I am not aware of a 15 man HI premade. FYI you are a guest account and can tell who is and is not HI by their tags [rank]. Those tags allow entrance into HI only channels of which you can't gain access with via a guest account. As I stated in reply to you other post to this effect I would like to talk to you. I appreciate your input.
I use tools to listen in on channels that it does not appear that I am in or even logged in to see that things go the way we want them to. However any time we can get other players feedback it helps.
As to this concept of running 20s...I do. Being an executive and having five children, two in college in Santa Barbara, I have limited time and will try to get to promoting and playing them more but am making no promises. We have a lot of fun. Even in facerolls we find ways to have fun. We laugh a lot at ourselves. As we are building new twinks at a rate of a couple a day the transplants with no BoA's appreciate the accelerated honor gain of 5-7 wins an hour.
As for Gnomeregan...I love the place. With over three hundred runs I expect to hit well over a thousand. I will have hotshots drop for me so I can twink a warlock. We are also building an army. I transfer gear in from other servers and while on those servers sow seeds of interest and water them.. which means I do runs on Gnomeregan for players on other realms that are new. I know that I am not quite right...but prefer marketing a bracket and helping new players to collecting pets.
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I use tools to listen in on channels that it does not appear that I am in or even logged in to see that things go the way we want them to. However any time we can get other players feedback it helps.
As to this concept of running 20s...I do. Being an executive and having five children, two in college in Santa Barbara, I have limited time and will try to get to promoting and playing them more but am making no promises. We have a lot of fun. Even in facerolls we find ways to have fun. We laugh a lot at ourselves. As we are building new twinks at a rate of a couple a day the transplants with no BoA's appreciate the accelerated honor gain of 5-7 wins an hour.
As for Gnomeregan...I love the place. With over three hundred runs I expect to hit well over a thousand. I will have hotshots drop for me so I can twink a warlock. We are also building an army. I transfer gear in from other servers and while on those servers sow seeds of interest and water them.. which means I do runs on Gnomeregan for players on other realms that are new. I know that I am not quite right...but prefer marketing a bracket and helping new players to collecting pets.
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Kearbear
Legend
If a side drops under 5 players the game returns [will end in 5 min] messages. If the team drops to 0 the game ends instantly. I've never witness a game actually closed (rather, I haven't for a long time) because it's usually filled back up, but supposedly if it is closed neither side receives any honor from the game (as though they've afk'd).
Pookums
Legend
Crit, several of the players were indeed simul-queing from other servers, and out of respect I shall not name any names. I DID notice however, that none of the HI folks talked out against it, or encouraged otherwise. If nothing else, they are guilty of complicity.
The point is, I have several Horde toons on Aerie Peak, and used to be a part of full 15 man AB and 10 man WSG games. The problem is, I realized that it's completely unfair, fun, or usually any kind of a challenge. I especially felt bad when we faced Alli teams full of TRUE trials who barely had a clue, they just got destroyed. My only consolation in those games was that we NEVER farmed, and we ALWAYS capped quickly. Now, I tend to solo que, or que with just a few others (mostly to counter the 6-7 Alli hunters we usually encounter).
You say you want challenging games, well as a full 24 premade you will NEVER have them, end of story.
On a positive note, as I was leaving the vent server, there was discussion of wargames. I think this is the ONLY way you can ever expect to have fair and balanced games as a 24. To think other wise is deluding yourself.
I speak from experience, I had a 24 for about the period of 2 weeks. In the end, playing him was unfair and really not even fun. I ended up deleting him. For perspective he was a 24 feral and with all cooldowns, there really wasn't many trials in the bracket who wouldn't immediately go down.
I have been twinking since Vanilla, and it is true that the VERY essence of twinking is maximizing your toon in every conceivable way. But the 20-24 bracket IS different from every other bracket with the level and stat disparity between 20 and 24, XP OFF ofc.
From another perspective, on a P2P twink most of the work is done quite easily with a main. F2P have to do it ALL themselves. The harder it is to accomplish a thing, the more rewarding imho.
The point is, I have several Horde toons on Aerie Peak, and used to be a part of full 15 man AB and 10 man WSG games. The problem is, I realized that it's completely unfair, fun, or usually any kind of a challenge. I especially felt bad when we faced Alli teams full of TRUE trials who barely had a clue, they just got destroyed. My only consolation in those games was that we NEVER farmed, and we ALWAYS capped quickly. Now, I tend to solo que, or que with just a few others (mostly to counter the 6-7 Alli hunters we usually encounter).
You say you want challenging games, well as a full 24 premade you will NEVER have them, end of story.
On a positive note, as I was leaving the vent server, there was discussion of wargames. I think this is the ONLY way you can ever expect to have fair and balanced games as a 24. To think other wise is deluding yourself.
I speak from experience, I had a 24 for about the period of 2 weeks. In the end, playing him was unfair and really not even fun. I ended up deleting him. For perspective he was a 24 feral and with all cooldowns, there really wasn't many trials in the bracket who wouldn't immediately go down.
I have been twinking since Vanilla, and it is true that the VERY essence of twinking is maximizing your toon in every conceivable way. But the 20-24 bracket IS different from every other bracket with the level and stat disparity between 20 and 24, XP OFF ofc.
From another perspective, on a P2P twink most of the work is done quite easily with a main. F2P have to do it ALL themselves. The harder it is to accomplish a thing, the more rewarding imho.
Honey Badger
OG
Pookums your right , there will never been a balance. no way out of 10 ques you get all premades vs another 5 pre made 50% of time its more like 10%-20% of the time. Also horde don't want to pre made cause it only benefits alliance due to instant pops vs 15 ques for alliance. horde takes 2-4 min ques also , honor kills don't count or honor.
OP
OP
Crit
OG
First, I am not delusional. Second, despite your saying "NEVER", we have found great games. I must question if there will be any common ground found as you insist something is not possible that was personally experienced. Its ok, to each there own. I am not looking for fair 1v1's but for challenging contests among other things. Queing into WSG/AB alone as a 24 is not a guaranteed win. Neither is our five man 24 impromptu group or anything in between as they will likely loose to the 7 24 hunters grouped with the Honeybadgers of the alliance. You can't say that is not a challenge with any credibility.
As for complacency with regards to farming and gy camping we do address that and will continue ratcheting up our efforts to inform and then enforce our policies. We will not allow continued violations. I have kicked well known players who are considered to be some of the best in the game for violations and will hold to those same principles.
I agree to degree about easy/hard difficulty factors and the sense of accomplishment derived. There are extremes either way. There is nothing easy about leveling and running a large guild nor is attempting to shift attitudes about camping/farming/etc on a large scale. Players focuses range from a personal level on up. Don't worry about challenge and a sense of accomplishment and me, I got this.
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As for complacency with regards to farming and gy camping we do address that and will continue ratcheting up our efforts to inform and then enforce our policies. We will not allow continued violations. I have kicked well known players who are considered to be some of the best in the game for violations and will hold to those same principles.
I agree to degree about easy/hard difficulty factors and the sense of accomplishment derived. There are extremes either way. There is nothing easy about leveling and running a large guild nor is attempting to shift attitudes about camping/farming/etc on a large scale. Players focuses range from a personal level on up. Don't worry about challenge and a sense of accomplishment and me, I got this.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
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Patrol
Legend
this has consistently been your excuse. you do NOT run into honeybadger that often, and a team of mostly hunters is NOT any more common on alliance than on horde. in 5 man vashj premades, we've faced teams of 6-8 horde hunters and came out on top, without needing 4 levels of gear/enchants/talents/skills/proffessions crutch
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Omgwtfsap
Legend
How many times will I yell out to get those dam pockethealers dead.
Kearbear
Legend
I won't argue that huntards aren't common on both sides of the fence, however it is worth mentioning that the minimal gear hunts that are common on horde come out at 600-1000 hp, and the low end of ally huntardom is usually 1200-1400. Makes a pretty big difference how they're geared, believe it or not.
Not that I won't bust my ass to cap on them anyways. Just is hard without a solid team.
OP
OP
Crit
OG
Laughable. As if we have done something wrong and need an excuse. You suggest that you and your "we" take down 6-8 Horde hunters. Have a few questions for you. Who are the "we"? What level were the hunters? What was the average heath of the Horde hunters?
'The Honeybadgers of the Alliance' is plural. We see him though, daily. That is not to mention you and other Allies who roll into WSG with over 5k health at times. I entreat you to play 10 games on each faction noting how many hunters and their heath. I have done it many times. Let us compare unfiltered results. Will you cling to your belief or the facts? Before I committed to this bracket I did months of research.
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SallyG
Legend
Last time someone did that, you said it didn't count .... -_-
SallyG
Legend
If you will respect what I say to be true and not say handpicked, made up or what have you, I will report 10 games of each. I encourage others to do the same. I would be curious to see everyone's experience.
Just for giggles.
Edit: I don't intend to screenie them. Or is that part of the deal -_-
Just for giggles.
Edit: I don't intend to screenie them. Or is that part of the deal -_-
Yde
Worg
No need for statistical samples too tiny to have any value for extrapolation.
Warcraft Census - Alliance 20-24
Warcraft Census - Horde 20-24
EDIT:
While I'm at it:
Level 20s:
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/censu...ionid=3&minlevel=20&maxlevel=&servertypeid=-1
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/censu...ionid=2&minlevel=20&maxlevel=&servertypeid=-1
22 % hunters on both factions.
Level 24s:
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/censu...nid=3&minlevel=24&maxlevel=24&servertypeid=-1
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/censu...nid=2&minlevel=24&maxlevel=24&servertypeid=-1
18 % of Alliance and 17 % Horde hunters.
The X-faction-has-more-24s debate:
24-to-20 ratio:
Alliance: 2,936 to 7,697 meaning ~ 1 : 2.46 / 27.61 %
Horde: 2,504 to 6,052 meaning ~ 1 : 2.42 / 29.27 %
HORDE HAS MORE 24S OMG. SO UNFAIR.
Warcraft Census - Alliance 20-24
Warcraft Census - Horde 20-24
EDIT:
While I'm at it:
Level 20s:
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/censu...ionid=3&minlevel=20&maxlevel=&servertypeid=-1
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/censu...ionid=2&minlevel=20&maxlevel=&servertypeid=-1
22 % hunters on both factions.
Level 24s:
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/censu...nid=3&minlevel=24&maxlevel=24&servertypeid=-1
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/censu...nid=2&minlevel=24&maxlevel=24&servertypeid=-1
18 % of Alliance and 17 % Horde hunters.
The X-faction-has-more-24s debate:
24-to-20 ratio:
Alliance: 2,936 to 7,697 meaning ~ 1 : 2.46 / 27.61 %
Horde: 2,504 to 6,052 meaning ~ 1 : 2.42 / 29.27 %
HORDE HAS MORE 24S OMG. SO UNFAIR.
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OP
OP
Crit
OG
Finally, a reply worth a reply.
Maybe we should start a new topic and do a real census along with research. If someone starts with an end in mind they need to be discounted. I started Alliance side in this bracket and play Horde. I have many friends who play Alliance or Horde only and many who play both. I have always viewed my opponent as just a fellow player and have run my guilds on both factions that way. This is not about 20 vs 24 or Alliance vs Horde. This is about a fair and accurate assessment of the bracket and its differences. Time of play may be of importance as well but for the sake of a first step lets keep it fairly simple. Screenshots are required. I will make said post.