I stayed out of the drama that happened in this thread tonight but as you've addressed me directly, I feel I have no choice but to respond. I'm gonna try keep this as short and neutral as possible (a bit like a pre-Cataclysm goblin).
most of them do not need anything, have completed most of the achievements and just come on a weekly basis because they enjoy old content with a happy and peacefull atmosphere
You've missed out the part where these raids are actually to sell Shadowmourne (or the rewards from it if there isn't currently a buyer). I'm not sure if/how the gold is split amongst the raiders, but anyone can read about it in
this thread.
When i got contacted from Aelo to plan the raid i told him i wanted to finish my shadowmourne
I never contacted you to ask you to plan the raids. I waited a while after you made the original cross-realm raiding thread, but then on the day of patch 4.3.2 I took it upon myself to get things organised as noone else had bothered to do so.
i just felt that leaving the safe group i had was a shame
If you had these intentions from the start, all this drama could have been avoided if you hadn't
signed up for the raids (claiming you could attend all times).
he accepted it but said he would have needed time to have trusth in me
The reason I needed a little time to think it over was because of the timing of your apology. You offered it the day after our first raid had cleared 11/12hc, which sent alarm bells ringing in my head when I remembered you had previously said you "wouldn't risk your ICC save until the raid had proven to be successful".
i even suggested to just get to know me a bit better over a couple of weeks and pick a decision than, we both agreed on me not joining his cross realm raid for a wile.
You did suggest this but I disagreed on you not joining the raids for a while. I told you that there was no point in waiting, and instead asked you few questions to try better understand your mindset/priorities, which you answered.
Two days after, he contacted me again saying that he had put me back in the roster
There's a few details missing here. The timline looked a little something like this:
- Saturday: We complete our first successful raid and you whisper Xipe about wanting to speak to me.
- Sunday: Xipe invites us both into a real-id conversation and you apologise. Later that evening, you speak to Xipe about wanting to be on the raiding list again.
- Monday: I add you to real ID, but you don't accept or come online all day as you're in Amsterdam.
- Tuesday: You accept and we talk, including the questions I mentioned above. I tell you I've added you back to the roster (which I mentioned in
this post).
- Wednesday: Nothing happens. I don't think we spoke at all that day (or maybe a couple of times about Herald of the Titans runs, I really can't remember)
- Thursday: You whisper me saying you won't be able to attend the raid again. Drama ensues, resulting in me removing you from the list again (which I mentioned in
this post).
- Friday: Nothing significant happened (other than the "Removed" list editting)
- Saturday: The day of both the cross-realm raid and your 85 raid.
From that breakdown, you can see that I tried to get in contact with you the day after, but still managed to let you know 4 days before the scheduled raids. You didn't tell me you couldn't attend until 2 days after.
it would have been unfair towards the people who kept joining to have a fun night to just see the event deleted
I struggle to believe that a raid of 85s require a leader for ICC after clearing 12/12 hc for several weeks. Your
co-leader for that raid was actually online this Saturday, so I'm not convinced that half of your excuse was genuine either.
at that point he raged at me saying i was giving priority to some bad 85's who just wanted some transmogrification gear
I didn't "rage" at you. I merely stated that you were doing exactly the same thing as the last time: choosing your personal raid over the 80 raiding you signed up for. Nowhere in our conversation did I call the 85s "bad" or claim they wanted transmog gear.
and removed me from his real id list.
This is true. I didn't see the value in going through the pointless drama that occurred last time.
do not be surprised if you log on your toon in the morning and find blackmails
I know you probably weren't accusing me of this but I'd like to clarify anyway: no I did not send him blackmails or harass him.
aelo had kept me on his list as a removed toon, both my main 80's name and one of my 80's alts, i nicely asked to be removed and he refused
I have already explained this to 2 members of the TI staff through PMs, but I'll copy it here for you and anyone else to read:
That section serves a few purposes, none of which are to anger or insult anyone. During our raid invites, we enable the option that gives everyone raid assist so that guildies/friends can be invited quickly. If I notice someone from the Removed section has been invitied, I know I should remove them from the raid (and the reason why). If people start asking why a specific person is no longer on the raiding roster, they can just look at the Removed section instead of bugging me in whispers (this has actually happened several times)
My memory isn't too bad, but as this raiding is open to 80s across all European servers I felt I needed that section to keep track of names/alts of those who have had their chance (or in the case of the levelled characters, it shows as a warning that they may not stick around after loading up on loot). I've tried to keep the reason column as respectful/fair as possible, so it doesn't turn into a "name and shame" section. I didn't think the 3 words "Lack of commitment" were a bad way of phrasing Nesyla's reason, but if that's the part that he wasn't happy about, he could have simply asked me to reword it (such as "other commitments"? "busy on current raid nights"?).
I then went ahead and changed your reason to "Other commitments", which you can see on the
spreadsheet.
in the meanwile Aelo and a couple of others 80's had asked Masked Crusader ( the new Twink Info owner ) if someone else from the staff could have took over the 80's section, and i was asked to stay away from it, so i passed the ball to another moderator ( eliot ) asking if he could get me removed,
This is a bit out of sync with the real timeline again. Here's how things went:
- I removed you from the list for the first time, and made a new post explaining my reasons for doing so
- You deleted that post, so I PMed Shane with the screenshot of our conversation
- Whilst you weren't moderating the 80 section, we noticed a raider had levelled so I added the "Removed" section for the 2 of you (no "Reason" column existed back then)
- Fast forward to the second time I removed you from the main list, but this time I added the "Reason" column
- You removed your name without saying/posting anything
- I added it back, then you asked Eliot to remove it
- I transferred the list to a Google Docs spreadsheet and linked to it, which Eliot then removed (I've already admitted to Shane in a PM that it was wrong of me to disobey the actions of 2 mods)
aelo decided to use another website to host his list.
Not that this matters much, but I had already planned to move the list to Google Docs (to total players/availability/attendance). It wasn't just to prevent you from editting the post.
and he decided that instead of just forgetting this and continueing with his ( great ) cross realm project he would have just stopped using his list, instead of just removing me.
I didn't stop using the list. I kept it up to date (
this sign up for example), and I stated in a post (that has since been deleted) that people could PM me if they wanted a link to it. Refer to my answer above for why I kept you on the list.
I had several discussions with Lunshj and Xipe, who ( and i understand it ) where on Aelo's side duo to being friends and guildies
You had both of them on real ID and they're both human beings capable of forming their own opinions, which I believe were based off all your actions in-game and across these forums (not just the raiding drama).
you have no idea how frustrating and stressfull being in a power position is when it comes to the internet, being able to throw out insults from behind a computer makes everything very easy
Actually I do. I've been a guild leader (both end-game and twinking) and raid leader (guild raids and a lot of PuGing) for most my "wow life". I was admin of a big vent server for a while and I've also been a member of more forums than I can remember (so I know how things are on the internet). The key is, don't let those people get to you. Like you said: the anonymity of the internet lets people act differently, but if you take every little thing to heart then you'll be spending all your time being offended.
Yes it is, but we're all still people. If someone did/said something outrageous/disrepectful in-game, I'd expect them to justify their actions just like in real life.
a line that divides the internet insults and trolls from threats, real life threats and using the worse possible languages
I'm not sure what incidents you're talking about here, as I don't remember anything except maybe the drama in this thread tonight (although the worst I saw was a handful of meme-based pictures).
i have gave Twink Info about 15 hours of my day for a quite long time, and i think that people should double think about what Moderators and Admins go thru before judging their work
Whilst I don't doubt that you have worked hard for TI, claiming you have given 15 hours of each day to moderating is a bit extreme. It's also a bit disrepectful that after stepping down you whispered both Xipe and Lunsh saying the other moderators had done nothing compared to you.
we have a life as well and decide to commit to this for passion, not because we are forced, we dont get paid nor have any income from Twink Info.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the passion be for the community or twinking, not for being a moderator? Shortly after stepping down as a moderator here, you told Xipe/Lunsh that you'd be applying to become a mod on the MMO-Champion forums, making it seem like you're only interested in the sense of power that come with such a role.
I've done my best to resolve/discuss our issues outside of the public domain, so this will most likely be the last post I'll be making on the topic.
