EU 39 idea about Restoreing

[Medan]

What Im trying to do is to not have rules that only work on paper but not in reality.

The rules has to be more specific towards classes rather then just over all. Because not every class is the same. The rules cant only be re-lvler sided, it has to be met half way or we might lose the existing twinks or they might just /care about them because the rules are so bananas. Wishful thinking doesn't work. Just because you dont have AGM or BOA's and wish no one else could use theirs doesn't mean they wont.



If x class can chose between a drop that has less then 1% chance to drop or a BOA it already has. It should be able to use that BOA if its not way to OP.

If x class with x spec (like maybe Balance druid, I don't know) only works with BOA's and engineering lens, it should be able to use that.

If a BOA is not more then (for example) +5 stat better then the alternative it should not be considered game braking and be allowed.



Why is that so hard to accept?

 

[elocon]

Is soo hard to accept that cuase its soo weird and undeclared, either its no or yes, its not; maybe if...

I got a AGM surggestion, that you can have them equiped but not use em.

 

[Medan]

Is soo hard to accept that cuase its soo weird and undeclared, either its no or yes, its not; maybe if...

I got a AGM surggestion, that you can have them equiped but not use em.

So far its unclear because we haven't discussed it yet. We need to know what underlying terms we need to have before we go towards the specific class/spec and say what is allowed. We need to have a clear board on witch items are allowed or not allowed for the individual class to make it as balanced as possible WITHOUT taking every class/spec under the same cut. You have to treat the individual classes/specs like individual classes/specs, it wont work if you threat the individual's as a mass because they are not a mass but individual's.



its the usage that makes AGM interesting, flexible and situational, not the passive stats. Taking away AGM is the same as lowering the skillcap in the bracket. Taking away stats is just taking away stats (that's why I said we could take off some gear to use AGM)



- Gonna go eat now, back in 15-20



Ps, this is a discussion, not an argument. From my side at least

 

[elocon]

We can only balance it out by playing and we have to start somewhere. Takeing away AGM is not the same thing as lowering the skillcap. If you got "oh shit! buttons" you usally lower the skill cap. There's only a few class'es where AGM is gamechangeing, its ofc gamechangeing in diffrent ways.

 

[Seffy]

Actually from my perspective, and I consider myself a complete rogue, AGM+Vanish actually lowers the skill cap. It's a super strong version of clos, is strong enough to hold out a dot duration, and provides a free reset, so rogues don't try and watch bleed and dot timers and chuck in some CC to get a reset. I welcome the idea of working around AGM+vanish.



The whole reason for disallowing BOA and AGM is simple. It's so that new players without mains and without a vast amount of time and resources can reach the same standard. There is no QQ over being outgeared, or not having enough utility. It's a uniform and singular experience. People don't feel disadvantaged, and can only blame skill for not performing as the equivalent player.



I also don't want players having to feel they have to invest large amounts of gold and time, we want the bracket up fast with all players being able to get the same gear and enchants, freely and easily. I'm quite happy playing a none boa rogue at 2500hp. It's no issue to me, I don't understand why everyone is so concerned.



Bandage nerf is a must, 39 is unfortunate in that respect - first bracket to use the strongest FA in the game, they are far too strong and ruin most duels and even some arena.



Lifeblood is essential for casters, it provides them with more durability.



The rules cannot be too complex, and they need to be concrete so no confusion arises and people have a common framework.

 

[Regulate]

all this cant have/can have is pointless atm (i know i joined in the argument before but meh). Get the bracket goin then sort shit like this out when u start to play some competitive games, all this arguing is gona put people off. End it now, choose ur realms, make ur toons, then go from there!

 

[Medan]

We can only balance it out by playing and we have to start somewhere. Takeing away AGM is not the same thing as lowering the skillcap. If you got "oh shit! buttons" you usally lower the skill cap. There's only a few class'es where AGM is gamechangeing, its ofc gamechangeing in diffrent ways.

we have many oh'shit buttons, vanish evasion sprint tidal charm etc mages got iceblock blink +, other classes has some and everyone has trinket/human racial. Knowing when to use the right one is skill, we dont increase the skillcap by removing agm.



"There's only a few class'es where AGM is gamechangeing"

-Thats why those classes has to take off eg. rings



"We can only balance it out by playing and we have to start somewhere"

we cant only balance it out by playing, but we have to start somewhere, and that's what were trying to do now. We should roughly find out what classes and specs can use BOA'a, wich can not. etc

It should be something like this:

Prot warrior can not use: xxx

xxx

etc

exeptions: If you want to use xxx item, you can not use xxx item (like taking off a ring).

etc.



Recomended gear for a prot warrior is: (link profile or char developer thing)





This does seem like allot of work, but its gonna keep people from quitting or /care about the rules later. And honestly, we have the time.



Think of it like: The people that made the game Conan fucked up cus they released it to early, it was still allot of bugs etc. If we go to early its gonna be a flop



Remember to look @ it from more then one perspective, that's the only way to attract more then one type of people/twinks

 

[Medan]

Actually from my perspective, and I consider myself a complete rogue, AGM+Vanish actually lowers the skill cap. It's a super strong version of clos, is strong enough to hold out a dot duration, and provides a free reset, so rogues don't try and watch bleed and dot timers and chuck in some CC to get a reset. I welcome the idea of working around AGM+vanish.



The whole reason for disallowing BOA and AGM is simple. It's so that new players without mains and without a vast amount of time and resources can reach the same standard. There is no QQ over being outgeared, or not having enough utility. It's a uniform and singular experience. People don't feel disadvantaged, and can only blame skill for not performing as the equivalent player.



I also don't want players having to feel they have to invest large amounts of gold and time, we want the bracket up fast with all players being able to get the same gear and enchants, freely and easily. I'm quite happy playing a none boa rogue at 2500hp. It's no issue to me, I don't understand why everyone is so concerned.



Bandage nerf is a must, 39 is unfortunate in that respect - first bracket to use the strongest FA in the game, they are far too strong and ruin most duels and even some arena.



Lifeblood is essential for casters, it provides them with more durability.



The rules cannot be too complex, and they need to be concrete so no confusion arises and people have a common framework.

If you don't have AGM vanish the one that opens wins. Why is that a good thing

 

[Seffy]

It's too intricate, we have to make rules across the board.



It won't put people off, nearly everyone here is in favour of no agms and no boas! And the first aid nerf.



Let's pretend im ghostcrawler, and you don't have a say in the matter, and now you have to work around the limitations!

 

[Seffy]

That's not true, a rogue with tidal can easily reverse being opened on, not to mention getting a gouge off or a vanish cs at the right moment.

 

[elocon]

Just cuase rogues can live without ring stats but get a major upgrade by agm...

I dont think we wanna a list of 10000 rules, it should also easy to pick up.



Medan, I got all boa's for several classe's (even the BoA ring) and I also got a semi done 39 hunter with AGM and BoA's to the hunter just waiting to get transfered to a active 39 bracket. I also got 3 accounts active atm soo I can if I wanna just make a twink on my non main account get agm with help of my 80 and then transfer to my main account with boa's. . Im looking from the other perspective and from my own "throne". What I feel is that I can live without BoAs and AGM and that It may cuase unwanted balance witch may put people off.



EDIT: I played a rogue without agm, it work fine. You know it.

 

[Medan]

It's too intricate, we have to make rules across the board.



It won't put people off, nearly everyone here is in favour of no agms and no boas! And the first aid nerf.



Let's pretend im ghostcrawler, and you don't have a say in the matter, and now you have to work around the limitations!

LOL, nearly everyone is 2 out of 3 people. Its mainly me you and elocon discussing.

1)As were going no where with the discussion about AGM and were only 3 people, witch is way to few to decide, we should lay the whole AGM discussion aside for later. Maybe even wait til we start playing (and people start loosing mainly because they get opened on, har har)

2) As I said earlier, I think everyone is for the FA nerf. Witch bandages we land on should be discussed later after in-game testing

3) About the BOA's, and gear generally, we should make specific rules. Specific rules takes time to make for the ones that make them, BUT it makes it much easier for the new twink to see what he can and cant use and why he cant use this or that. Plus some specs don't work as good without them (do you even read my posts? cus this part isn't sinking in at all).

I dont think we wanna a list of 10000 rules, it should also easy to pick up.

Whats more easy then knowing exactly what you can use and why, instead of reading that some people don't want you to use your BOA's or AGM's because they are OP and not everyone can get them.



Example:



George wants to make a twink, George has no idea about the 39 bracket but he has a AGM from playing in the 19 bracket. He reads that he can not use AGM and thinks, "why the fuck cant I use my fucking AGM noobs" and "fuck them, I'm gonna use it". Then tries to gather BIS gear (cus that's what hes used to from other brackets), he doesn't know much about the gear but gets some items right. When hes at 39 and plays, he sees people with some items that he didn't know of, like tidal charm. They tell him he cant use his AGM but that they can use tidal charm against him. George thinks this is unfair and ragequits or uses agm every time and gets /ignored by people and then ragequits



Peter has a lvl 80, but thinks its to much burst there so he goes 39. He doesn't know much about twinking and just uses what he has, BOA's, when he reach 39 with BOA's he has some good items, but misses out on alternatives to BOA's. People tell him he cant use BOA's witch he thinks is unfair, who the hell do you think you are make rules and shit, Ghostcrawler or somthing? + no one told him what gear he should get. The "sorry you cant use BOA's and its unfortunate for you that your spec just doesn't work without it either" doesn't work.

Peter ragequits



Tom found this awesome guide on what gear he should get and where he should get it and made a 39 and laughed at Peter and George.

Tom never had to change gear, because he was told what to get, not only what not to get. And Tom understood why it was the way it was because someone explained it in-depth

Tom never ragequitted but lived happily ever after.



I could go on for ever, the examples weren't really good, but I hope you understand why its a good thing to have a spesific gear rule towards each class and not the same over all classes. I said this before, but treat every class and spec like the individual class and spec it is.



"Just cuase rogues can live without ring stats but get a major upgrade by agm..."

Every class get a major upgrade by an agm, some more then others, thats why those that get the biggest upgrade has to take off rings or w/e. Should we deny certan classes gnomish death ray or netomatic because they gain more then others on it? no, but if they become way to OP with them they must chose between those trinkets and rings or w/e

 

[elocon]

A rogue with bis without agm vs a rogue with bis with agm witout rings... who whould win?



With your thinking we end up on, everyone use everything. You cant make a special rules like balance druid's can use boa's but not resto druids. Cuase then people just gonna start stretching the rules by puting some points there or whatever.



NO BoA, NO AGM, ONLY A TYPE OF SPECIAL BANDAGES.

 

[Medan]

Lets see what happens. In the meanwhile we can work on making a wow forums thread and what to write in it. Id like to see how you can make more twinks come by saying NO BoA, NO AGM. I'm afraid people wouldn't take you serious, remember most of the people reading it doesn't know you at all.



PS, make a really good one, gonna be post nr 100 Iv gtg, back later

 

[elocon]

First, you write your whole sides of exeptions of what you can or cant use while wearing what and being special class and race.



Clear short messages like no agm is easy, just like 29 got no aim shot.



All this is only about you wanna crunch on agm, boa's and a OP class. Soo if you drop agm (and your opponent also) you can only beat 8 classes instead of 9, fucking cry more. Everyone got a counter, live with it. We are trying to fucking balance the bracket not make rogues fucking king of the fucking hill.



Was that a good enought post for you?

 

[elocon]

but whatever... just get something going is the important.

 

[Medan]

First, you write your whole sides of exeptions of what you can or cant use while wearing what and being special class and race.



Clear short messages like no agm is easy, just like 29 got no aim shot.



All this is only about you wanna crunch on agm, boa's and a OP class. Soo if you drop agm (and your opponent also) you can only beat 8 classes instead of 9, fucking cry more. Everyone got a counter, live with it. We are trying to fucking balance the bracket not make rogues fucking king of the fucking hill.



Was that a good enought post for you?

Who's crying, all this time its been a discussion and now you turn all emo. There's so many places where I coulda dissed you in this thread without doing it and now you claim I'm only thinking about my selves, shame on you.



We could either turn this into a flame war or stick to the important stuff



Nice flame anyways, rogue is one of the classes that loses the least on banning AGM and BoA's. I can still bubble vanish and I honestly think I'm gonna be able to kill more classes if AGM is denied. + Many of the hard anti rogue classes could dispel my AGM, witch I, of course, couldn't retaliate. And not only that, but as a rogue, I only lose a minor amount of stats going away from my BoA chest. Its 10 times worse for a mage etc that needs new shoulders, wep and robe. I even have the items I need and dont have to farm some stupid item or buy a Staff of jordan. Other then that it was a pretty good flame,

or?



A discussion needs to be objective, you 2 were 100% set on one side (being rogues starting at lvl 1 without a main on the right server for BOA's), I had to take the other side or else it woulda been a pointless discussion with representatives from only 1 side. I also took the other side cus I knew I could stay on topic and not start a flame war, cus for me I'm only gonna hate wearing a dress, that's it.



I'm not gonna write a gear list for the bracket, if a gear list were to be made, it would need many people's opinions.

 

[elocon]

Mages shoulders is worse than satchel loot, lich robe work fine (its pretty even with boa), boa staff is +17sta -5sp +3 int to jordan staff.



Ofc, you should be 100% in your opinion...

I got rogue boa's on right server and if I have to remind you that I even played a rogue without boa and agm. But Im not gonna start a rogue anyways. EDIT: Im gonan roll a mage, soo im "for" the side who is least benefical for me? But maybe its most benefical for the bracket?END EDIT

Why do you even have to take the other side in the disccusion and not just agreeded then? We are not here to discuss forever, we just gonna try get some going. I dident even pick the side where I earn most from, just the one that I think is gonna be the most benefical for the bracket.



Why whould you even consider loads of expetions then if you cant come with them?



I been all emo since we fucking got in on what server we should start on and that was like the secound fucking post in this thread.



We mainly try make it easyer to gear, I thought since you mentioned that the bracket got less skill without agm that you was considerigng agm vanish as skilled.



If you look on your post's you have been tracking us down diffrently.



Rogues can gouge, agm vanish. Almost no class can stop that. Soo dont come tell me that you got a bigger chance if you drop it.



No1 need boa's since there wasent even any before.



Is this going nowhere or what?

 

[Seffy]

I'm sorry but AGM+Vanish is a free reset - it's how priests lose to rogues 1v1, and how rogue teams get a free reset. AB trinket only absorbs bleeds, and not DOTS. I know for a fact that playing without AGM as a rogue makes it a lot harder. I can't see how you can argue with that.



I will roll a rogue or a mage. I don't care if someone has 500hp more than me - I'm confident in my skill. That's not the point about these suggestions AT ALL.



The key point is to make it easy for immigrants to not feel DISADVANTAGED where transferring to a new realm with no main and limiting funding.



Priest Rogue with AGM and BOA's completely smoke a none agm BOA rogue priest team, you cannot compete. You must see this. The whole point of this is to strip it back to the bare minimum in terms of gearing and gearing time. Bring it back to TBC arena twinking if you will.



Simple rules are in place, everyone can adapt to no BOA's/AGM but not everyone can get BOA's and AGM. This is the key point. So let us remove this element so no one feels outgeared, and you can only look at the variables of skill/lag and rng.



We cannot start putting in lots of sub clauses and exceptions, people will need a fully fledged handbook just to start in the bracket!

 

[Mortox]

The World of Warcraft Armory - Kutty @ Silvermoon - Profile Will be there when/ if it happens. I worked long and hard to get all that I have on that character and I'll be damned if you guys are too cheap/ lazy to get them. I'll be rockin' my POD and AGM as well as Tidal and 450 FA. Why drive a Mazda when you own a Bugatti Veyron ?



Edit : 39 is one of the ONLY brackets if not the only one that gear only slightly impacts a palyers performance. I have seen the effects of better gear here and it's marginal at best. How can you expect to tell people that they suddenly can't use their weps that they have or their professions because some of the other players are simply too lazy to get up to par ?