Dirtynines, Developing the meta. A discussion on premade comps and strats.

[Laurenti]

Obviously the winning team is going to have higher damage done. It's not rocket appliances, buddy

Fine, listen to the communication difference, then tell me who is the better bm monk. You can't say that one bm monk cannot outplay another one.

 

[artonkn]

Banning things won't work. Shame the bomb users that's all. Everything else should be fly

 

[BACKPEDDLE]

Communication difference is present in literally every class in the game

Terrible example

Feral druids can have communication difference as well, guess we should also allow them!!

 

[BACKPEDDLE]

Banning things won't work. Shame the bomb users that's all. Everything else should be fly

You must be lost. Banning things will most definitely work in premades.

 

[Laurenti]

Communication difference is present in literally every class in the game

Terrible example

Feral druids can have communication difference as well, guess we should also allow them!!

You are really lost. The communication comment was an example of how one bm target caller can outplay another bm target caller. This was in response to the argument that class with a low skill call should be banned, because they reduce the quality of games. I was simply proving how bm target caller had a skillcap that could be utilized in a premade setting.

I am not the one that thinks that low skillcaps should be a reason to ban something from premades. I still maintain that only specs that are overly broken should be banned, and at this time, feral is the only spec that fits in this category.

 

[artonkn]

You must be lost. Banning things will most definitely work in premades.

In a tournament setting sure.

 

[BACKPEDDLE]

You are really lost. The communication comment was an example of how one bm target caller can outplay another bm target caller. This was in response to the argument that class with a low skill call should be banned, because they reduce the quality of games. I was simply proving how bm target caller had a skillcap that could be utilized in a premade setting.

I am not the one that thinks that low skillcaps should be a reason to ban something from premades. I still maintain that only specs that are overly broken should be banned, and at this time, feral is the only spec that fits in this category.

You sound like you bought a one-way ticket to lostville and you've been stranded with a bunch of BM monks ever since.


Obviously any target caller can outplay any other target caller. That has nothing to do with the skillcap of the class. Not sure how to get that through your thick skull.


Doesn't change the fact that the spec is braindead, almost as broken as feral, and completely changes the dynamics of the game forcing both teams to build around that single brewmaster.

Premades would undoubtedly be better if brewmaster was just banned.

 

[Laurenti]

Obviously any target caller can outplay any other target caller. That has nothing to do with the skillcap of the class.

In the current meta, what class generally calls targets? Oh wait, brewmaster.

Doesn't change the fact that the spec is braindead

A braindead person could not play wow, let alone play a good brewmaster. Come on now, please be logical with me

almost as broken as feral

Very debatable.

completely changes the dynamics of the game forcing both teams to build around that single brewmaster.

The once piece of logic in your entire post! I found it!!! At the same time, you could argue that a druid FC forces both teams to alter their comp in order to deal with a fast flag carrier, which they do by running things such as rogue/hunter for FC control. yet shockingly (not...), no one is suggesting that rdruid FCs should be banned either.

Premades would undoubtedly be better if brewmaster was just banned.

This is an un-backed statement with no evidence whatsoever, simply your opinion of what you think would happen. You are allowed to have your own opinion, as am I

 

[Snowjobs]

Neap darling target calling is not a class dependant characteristic.
How well somebody uses roll to stay on a target or guard to mitigate incoming burst or tigers lust to get somebody else on target would be a class dependant skill but anyone can call out targets and that isn't an example of a class play .

Bm isnt on the chopping block for premades because of it being overpowered more so because it dumbs down the play in a bg . The absence of a BM would place a lot more importance on other classes using their slows and movement impairing effects instead of just everyone spamming damage because ppl move at snail speed thanks to barels on both sides keeping everyone slowed . It would add complexity to games and make them more fast paced and viewer friendly .
Just my. .02$

 

[Laurenti]

Neap darling target calling is not a class dependant characteristic.

This is true. However, a BM monk is the best dps to target call in the current meta, because they can time hardswitches off of their keg smash cooldown, and therefore are very effective.

How well somebody uses roll to stay on a target or guard to mitigate incoming burst or tigers lust to get somebody else on target would be a class dependant skill but anyone can call out targets and that isn't an example of a class play .

I don't disagree with you on the first statement, yes anyone can call targets. but if one BM monk is calling targets for a team and landing kills, while the other BM is not being as effective at focusing burst, it is an indicator of the usefulness of the BM. I am not saying that throwing barrels takes skill, I am saying that coordinating burst focused around one of your class abilities takes skill.

Bm isnt on the chopping block for premades because of it being overpowered more so because it dumbs down the play in a bg . The absence of a BM would place a lot more importance

You explain my point even more. In my opinion, I do not think that anything should be banned, unless it is extremely overpowered and gamebreaking. At this time, BM monks are not extremely overpowered to the point where they become a problem, and therefore should not be banned. If BM monks were hitting 5k aoe kegs, we might have a problem. However, fortunately that is not the case

 

[Revolution]

Wow Neap. That's a pretty bold move calling out the player who pretty much carried mid for our 19 squad in the twink cup. I don't think listening to those 3 games we played is anything close to a fair representation of what Anatomy can do as a player AND a leader. Comparing shot-calling has nothing to do with the class, and has everything to do with the environment of the team. I can be the first to say JCM was pretty much testing the waters and getting a feel for the bracket, which is why I joined the other team in the 3rd game. I know Fancy yelling like an idiot can sound pretty damn good, but it really comes down to which targets you call, not how you say it.

On another note, banning BM monks would not only completely shift the meta to better gameplay, but it would open up different possible strats for teams to run. The class seemed to be needed at 19, but, from what I've seen at 39, I think we could easily do without it.

 

[Snowjobs]

This is true. However, a BM monk is the best dps to target call in the current meta, because they can time hardswitches off of their keg smash cooldown, and therefore are very effective.

I don't disagree with you on the first statement, yes anyone can call targets. but if one BM monk is calling targets for a team and landing kills, while the other BM is not being as effective at focusing burst, it is an indicator of the usefulness of the BM. I am not saying that throwing barrels takes skill, I am saying that coordinating burst focused around one of your class abilities takes skill.


You explain my point even more. In my opinion, I do not think that anything should be banned, unless it is extremely overpowered and gamebreaking. At this time, BM monks are not extremely overpowered to the point where they become a problem, and therefore should not be banned. If BM monks were hitting 5k aoe kegs, we might have a problem. However, fortunately that is not the case

I did edit my post because I acidentaly clicked post before I was done typing so your very last response missed some of my point . But i think banning bm's in premades would increase the skill caps of every other class . Suddenly hunters actualy need to think about what they conc shot . Other classes now use their slows like piercing howl instead of just spamming dps .

Over all I think the removal of bm's from premades would bring more complexity and a higher skill cap to every other class and allow more variance in comps

 

[Laurenti]

Wow Neap. That's a pretty bold move calling out the player who pretty much carried mid for our 19 squad in the twink cup. I don't think listening to those 3 games we played is anything close to a fair representation of what Anatomy can do as a player AND a leader. Comparing shot-calling has nothing to do with the class, and has everything to do with the environment of the team. I can be the first to say JCM was pretty much testing the waters and getting a feel for the bracket, which is why I joined the other team in the 3rd game. I know Fancy yelling like an idiot can sound pretty damn good, but it really comes down to which targets you call, not how you say it.

I was simply pointing out how a class that people in this thread are claiming has an extremely low skillcap can have a slightly higher skillcap in premades. To be honest, I have no idea why anyone brought up banning a class for having a low skillcap in the first place.

On another note, banning BM monks would not only completely shift the meta to better gameplay, but it would open up different possible strats for teams to run. The class seemed to be needed at 19, but, from what I've seen at 39, I think we could easily do without it.

We do not know if it would shift the meta to "better" gameplay, as better gameplay is extremely subjective. What is "better" gameplay to you may be different than what I consider "better" gameplay, and we both might have different opinions of "better" gameplay than a third person.

Banning any class or spec that is generally chosen for premades would "open up different possible strats". Banning all stealthies would change strats. Banning rdruid FCs would definitly change strats. Banning melee dps completely would change strats, as would banning all ranged dps. The fact that banning something would change the meta is not a good reason at all to ban something.

If it is broken (feral druid), I understand completely. Brewmaster, however, is not extremely broken, and therefore should not be banned, in my opinion.

 

[BACKPEDDLE]

For reasons not yet completely understood, Neap's pea-sized brain has trouble comprehending that there are other reasons for a spec being broken than simply doing 7k crits. He tunnels on the fact that Brewmasters don't do 7k crits, as if that validates the spec. Are you the type of player who constantly has recount open?

 

[Laurenti]

I did edit my post because I acidentaly clicked post before I was done typing so your very last response missed some of my point . But i think banning bm's in premades would increase the skill caps of every other class . Suddenly hunters actualy need to think about what they conc shot . Other classes now use their slows like piercing howl instead of just spamming dps .

Over all I think the removal of bm's from premades would bring more complexity and a higher skill cap to every other class and allow more variance in comps

I don't disagree with this statement at all. I can see how the removal of BMs puts more focus on other CC utility abilities such as piercing howl, and that is a positive thing, but at the same time you are completely removing a spec from play because of a single CC ability that can honestly be played around. I would rather have the fury warrior have a slightly lower skillcap (due to the fact that it doesn't need to waste rage on spamming piercing howl), and have the BM monk actually be a spec that is playable in premades, than have the fury warrior have a slightly higher skillcap, but have the BM monk non-existent in the premade scene.

I have always maintained this outlook on situations similar to this in life and gaming, and probably will. I believe that fewer restrictions are better than more. There is no reason to ban something from a premade unless you absolutely need to, and at this point they are not enough of a problem in games to warrant a ban.

 

[DrTran]

Would be really entertaining to play premades where both teams arent perma slowed the entire game. It opens up so many exciting comps if bm is just excluded whatsoever. This bracket has so much more versatility than 19s, and i believe it should be explored. With bms now it literally just feels exactly like 19s, and can get very stale very quick. I hope whenever next premades are that both teams try out the exclusion of bms to see how enjoyable it can be.

 

[Sudowoodo]

I was simply pointing out how a class that people in this thread are claiming has an extremely low skillcap can have a slightly higher skillcap in premades. To be honest, I have no idea why anyone brought up banning a class for having a low skillcap in the first place.



We do not know if it would shift the meta to "better" gameplay, as better gameplay is extremely subjective. What is "better" gameplay to you may be different than what I consider "better" gameplay, and we both might have different opinions of "better" gameplay than a third person.

Banning any class or spec that is generally chosen for premades would "open up different possible strats". Banning all stealthies would change strats. Banning rdruid FCs would definitly change strats. Banning melee dps completely would change strats, as would banning all ranged dps. The fact that banning something would change the meta is not a good reason at all to ban something.

If it is broken (feral druid), I understand completely. Brewmaster, however, is not extremely broken, and therefore should not be banned, in my opinion.

 

[anatomyx]

Also, for anyone saying that we should never compare 19s to 39s, it would be silly to ignore some things that went well from the most successful Twink tournament in recent history. I am not saying that the rules for this Twink cup should be copy/pasted from 19s, but I an saying that we shouldn't completely ignore how the 19 tc turned out.

I'm not going to respond in the continued argument about BM anymore, but I'll respond to this

The 19 TC was far from successful imo, it was plagued with an insane amount of issues, massive delays and rules changing on the fly, things that wouldn't have happened if the organization was better and people in charge of rules put more time into actually setting their rules in stone. There was even one point where games had to be delayed for over an hour because a team did something and the organizers sat there debating if it was allowed or not.

But you wouldn't know I guess, because you didn't participate in the cup (this isn't a shot at you, I'm just saying)

That's not the say everything was all bad, it was fun, just things on the organizational side could have been handled so much better. It's not something I (or anyone else who will be helping the 39 TC as far as I'm aware) want to be taking examples from, we want the 39 scene to become much better than 19s, and things will get banned out if we believe that will help us achieve that goal.

 

[Laurenti]

For reasons not yet completely understood, Neap's pea-sized brain

No need for personal insults, but k.

there are other reasons for a spec being broken than simply doing 7k crits. He tunnels on the fact that Brewmasters don't do 7k crits, as if that validates the spec. Are you the type of player who constantly has recount open?

That's the thing! If you are going by the assumption that, "if you are slowed by a brewmaster, you are dead.', then yes, brewmaster is very broken. However, in premades there are these awesome things called healers, and they allow you to take damage, and then regain lost health!!! Getting hit by a bm slow is not the end of the world. If you get BM slowed, you are not instantly dead. If you get BM slowed, it does not mean that you lose the midfight.

When you get hit by a barrel, you have a choice: Do I use a mobility ability to get out of it/overcome it? Or do I sit in the slow, because it is not worth it to use mobility on a slow when I do not need to.

I will make the counter-argument that removing BM monks ( and their slow) from a wsg actually LOWERS the skillcap of everyone on the opposing team in the BG. They no longer have to make decisions about which barrel to gnome racial, which barrel to lust, or even which barrel to trinket. (if trinketing a barrel slow is the difference between winning a game and losing one, or even the difference between being up or down a cap, you bet that trinket CD was worth it). Therefore, playing their class just lost a mechanic that was caused by the brewmaster barrels.
It is a double-edged sword, and can be looked at both ways

 

[Snowjobs]

Easy with the flames there . While I agree with many things your saying about bm's posting this does nothing to convince ppl of a point . Just makes them more defensive and less willing to consider other views. Let's try and keep shit constructive instead of everyone saying "bm's op and your dumb " or " why remove it you dumb" and instead try to make points on what the effects of a decision would be like " keeping bm's makes 39s extremely similar to 19s and that doesn't attract new ppl " or " removing bm's increases the skill cap of all other classes "


imo imo we try out no bm's next premade sesh and just go from there