Dirtynines, Developing the meta. A discussion on premade comps and strats.

[BACKPEDDLE]

Thoughts on banning Brewmaster altogether?

 

[Snowjobs]

Thoughts on banning Brewmaster altogether?

brew master is such a huge part of any team with slows I think It would completely change the meta and make things much more fast paced (movement wise) much more importance would be put on classes like fury warrior and frost mage to keep slows going. beaking off to flank or swoop around on the other team would become much easier and teams would have to account for that. over all I think it would really set 39s apart from any other twink bracket and give pemades a more pre MOP feel .

 

[Laurenti]

Thoughts on banning Brewmaster altogether?

Hey, let's ban enhance shamans as well.
Actually, now that I think about it, we should just play three holy pally, one prot warrior that isn't allowed to use any defensive or damaging abilities at all, and six sub rogues that are not allowed to stealth. I mean, that would drastically change the meta, and we have never tried it before, so it must be a good idea, right?
On a less sarcastic note, banning classes and specs is an awful idea. I don't mind feral being banned, they are broken af. However, now you are arguing for bm to be banned. If you ban bm, what is to keep someone from complaining that enhance is too broken with it's instant damage and should be banned as well? At that point, you are simply banning strong specs, so that other specs will be forced to be played.

 

[BACKPEDDLE]

At that point, you are simply banning strong specs, so that other specs will be forced to be played.

And what exactly is the problem with that?

Unless you want to see brewmaster and enhance literally every game no matter what.

 

[Snowjobs]

I think wargames would be the prime place to try things such as "no bm monks" where it might just cause more drama in pugs.

PPL in wargames tend to be much more wiling to conform in order to get the most fun out of the games

 

[Shook]

A 40 yard range, no cooldown, no dr, 0 resource, %50 AOE snare! So skillful! So strategic! So rewarding! =^]

 

[Laurenti]

And what exactly is the problem with that?

Unless you want to see brewmaster and enhance literally every game no matter what.

No matter what you ban, something will always be the strongest dps in the game.
You ban feral? Bm monks are now top tier.
"Oh noe, something is better than something else? Ban bm monk plz!"
You ban bm monk? Enhance shamans are now the top tier mdps.
At this point, there is nothing stopping someone from making the argument that enhance is op and should be banned.
If that happens, then we are left with a meta of casters, ret paladins, and fury warriors.

Melee dps also keep casters in check. If you remove a strong mdps, such as a bm monk, then you have shadow priest doing even more damage than it currently does. The casters now have less damage in their face, and are not slowed for an eternity.

I think that if we apply this really shitty logic to strong melee classes, then we should apply it to ranged classes as well.
To counter the bans of feral and bm monk, we should also ban shadow priests and affliction warlocks, so that we can watch a group of shitty dps fight against another group of equally shitty dps.
Wait a minute, that is an awful idea, that is based on extremely flawed logic...

I don't mind restrictions such as no double enhance, no double arms war, no double bm, no double marks Hunter, etc.
However, outright banning specs that are nowhere near as bad as feral (such as bm) is an awful idea.

 

[Shook]

No matter what you ban, something will always be the strongest dps in the game.
You ban feral? Bm monks are now top tier.
"Oh noe, something is better than something else? Ban bm monk plz!"
You ban bm monk? Enhance shamans are now the top tier mdps.
At this point, there is nothing stopping someone from making the argument that enhance is op and should be banned.
If that happens, then we are left with a meta of casters, ret paladins, and fury warriors.

Melee dps also keep casters in check. If you remove a strong mdps, such as a bm monk, then you have shadow priest doing even more damage than it currently does. The casters now have less damage in their face, and are not slowed for an eternity.

I think that if we apply this really shitty logic to strong melee classes, then we should apply it to ranged classes as well.
To counter the bans of feral and bm monk, we should also ban shadow priests and affliction warlocks, so that we can watch a group of shitty dps fight against another group of equally shitty dps.
Wait a minute, that is an awful idea, that is based on extremely flawed logic...

I don't mind restrictions such as no double enhance, no double arms war, no double bm, no double marks Hunter, etc.
However, outright banning specs that are nowhere near as bad as feral (such as bm) is an awful idea.

I think you are a bit confused with the banning logic. It isn't "x is the strongest ,so ban it." It is "x lowers the skill cap and quality of games, so ban it."

 

[Laurenti]

I think you are a bit confused with the banning logic. It isn't "x is the strongest ,so ban it." It is "x lowers the skill cap and quality of games, so ban it."

It is still a slippery slope. One could make the argument that by definition, enhance shamans should be banned, because they have a low skillcap, and whether something "lowers the quality of games" is completely is completely arbitrary.
We should ban disc priests by definition then, because they have a lower skillcap than the other healers do, but at the same time do massive amounts of healing, and therefore lower the quality of premades, because they are autopicked over the other healers.

This entire discussion has been caused by people complaining for something to be banned, because they do not like it. Bm monk is nowhere near as broken as feral, and shouldn't be banned. There is more mobility at 39 than they're is at 19, and this was not a problem at all throughout the tc exhibitions, or in the cup itself. I'm not sure why some people in this bracket complain so much, the 19 bracket has never had silly ban or not-to-ban discussions lmao. Feral was always much more broken than anything else, so it was banned. Outside of that, people learned to adapt.

 

[Shook]

It is still a slippery slope. One could make the argument that by definition, enhance shamans should be banned, because they have a low skillcap, and whether something "lowers the quality of games" is completely is completely arbitrary.
We should ban disc priests by definition then, because they have a lower skillcap than the other healers do, but at the same time do massive amounts of healing, and therefore lower the quality of premades, because they are autopicked over the other healers.

This entire discussion has been caused by people complaining for something to be banned, because they do not like it. Bm monk is nowhere near as broken as feral, and shouldn't be banned. There is more mobility at 39 than they're is at 19, and this was not a problem at all throughout the tc exhibitions, or in the cup itself. I'm not sure why some people in this bracket complain so much, the 19 bracket has never had silly ban or not-to-ban discussions lmao. Feral was always much more broken than anything else, so it was banned. Outside of that, people learned to adapt.

Enh has a very low skill entry level to be effective but has a high skill cap due to all of its utility.

BM monks have a low skill entry level and a low skill cap. There is no punishment in missing or bad timing of their abilities. When you see a random name or a top tier player as bm, the impact on the game they have is reletivly the same.

Now if you have a top tier rogue player and a random on a rogue, their impact is night and day.

It's not arbitrary at all.

 

[youbeezy]

I really wish you would think about what you are trying to communicate Neap. You are not coming across well at all.

 

[bigmoran]

Dude who cares just play the game and pwn people. That's what I do.

 

[BACKPEDDLE]

BM monks completely change the dynamic of the game for both teams. No other class in the game has anywhere near the slowing power of a BM monk.


I doubt melee cleaves would seem so strong if they didn't have a BM monk slowing everyone on the enemy team from 40 yards away with no risk, making it impossible to kite.

What do you guys think?

 

[anatomyx]

It is still a slippery slope. One could make the argument that by definition, enhance shamans should be banned, because they have a low skillcap, and whether something "lowers the quality of games" is completely is completely arbitrary.
We should ban disc priests by definition then, because they have a lower skillcap than the other healers do, but at the same time do massive amounts of healing, and therefore lower the quality of premades, because they are autopicked over the other healers.

This entire discussion has been caused by people complaining for something to be banned, because they do not like it. Bm monk is nowhere near as broken as feral, and shouldn't be banned. There is more mobility at 39 than they're is at 19, and this was not a problem at all throughout the tc exhibitions, or in the cup itself. I'm not sure why some people in this bracket complain so much, the 19 bracket has never had silly ban or not-to-ban discussions lmao. Feral was always much more broken than anything else, so it was banned. Outside of that, people learned to adapt.

Currently, every team will be running a BM and it's their job to pretty much have everybody permanently slowed the entire game. If a BM monk does not exist, keeping people slowed becomes something that is much more important, and it gives positioning a way bigger role. It has nothing to do with BM having a lower "skill cap" than other DPS, it'll just dramatically change the speed of games if they're gone and it's an interesting idea to consider.

Stop drawing comparisons to 19. This bracket is completely different and has a way higher possibility to make premades really good.

 

[Laurenti]

BM monks have a low skill entry level and a low skill cap. There is no punishment in missing or bad timing of their abilities. When you see a random name or a top tier player as bm, the impact on the game they have is reletivly the same.

Now if you have a top tier rogue player and a random on a rogue, their impact is night and day.

Counterexample: in the premades that were played, fancy outdamaged the other teams brewmaster by a ton. Also, after listening to sudo's stream, I would rather have fancy on bm over that other guy any day. Fancy's target calling was on point, and that is one of the reasons that we were landing kills.
Don't tell me that you can't tell the difference between a good brewmaster and a bad one.

 

[Laurenti]

I really wish you would think about what you are trying to communicate Neap. You are not coming across well at all.

My point is that the fewer unnecessary bans there are, the better off the premade scene will be. I get that feral is broken, and needs to be banned. Bm monk, on the other hand, is nowhere near that much of a problem. Tl:dr of thread

 

[Shook]

Counterexample: in the premades that were played, fancy outdamaged the other teams brewmaster by a ton. Also, after listening to sudo's stream, I would rather have fancy on bm over that other guy any day. Fancy's target calling was on point, and that is one of the reasons that we were landing kills.
Don't tell me that you can't tell the difference between a good brewmaster and a bad one.

Fancy is a really good player but calling targets isn't linked to the bm class and bm dmg output on the boards has little to do with personal skill and more to do about the dynamic of that game in particular. Anatomy has a great point.

 

[Shaket]

19s warps peoples brains so much that they cannot see the fundamental flaw in a PROTECTION spec being so broken dps-wise, that it is actually considered mandatory to have that PROTECTION spec as a DPS. Its fucking PROTECTION for TANKING, just the fact that the DPS output of that PROTECTION spec is considered viable DPS in a bg should show you that the TANKING spec is broken.

But dat 19 logix doe.

 

[Laurenti]

19s warps peoples brains so much that they cannot see the fundamental flaw in a PROTECTION spec being so broken dps-wise, that it is actually considered mandatory to have that PROTECTION spec as a DPS. Its fucking PROTECTION for TANKING, just the fact that the DPS output of that PROTECTION spec is considered viable DPS in a bg should show you that the TANKING spec is broken.

But dat 19 logix doe.

Bm can be played around though. It is impossible to play around 9k ferocious bites that are critting for over 100% of people's max hp. However, it is possible to play around a bm monk. Windwalk totem, along with the increased mobility gained from level 19 to 39, is more than enough. Also, there is a difference between being one-shot, and being slowed for a period of time.

Also, for anyone saying that we should never compare 19s to 39s, it would be silly to ignore some things that went well from the most successful Twink tournament in recent history. I am not saying that the rules for this Twink cup should be copy/pasted from 19s, but I an saying that we shouldn't completely ignore how the 19 tc turned out.

 

[BACKPEDDLE]

Counterexample: in the premades that were played, fancy outdamaged the other teams brewmaster by a ton. Also, after listening to sudo's stream, I would rather have fancy on bm over that other guy any day. Fancy's target calling was on point, and that is one of the reasons that we were landing kills.
Don't tell me that you can't tell the difference between a good brewmaster and a bad one.

Obviously the winning team is going to have higher damage done. It's not rocket appliances, buddy