Dirtynines, Developing the meta. A discussion on premade comps and strats.

[AlbinoCow]

As far as hunters go KS is a major component in the effectiveness of the hunter, Surv can at max do only roughly ~10-15%more overall dmg compared to other specs generally. MM being prime for 10v10s as per the burst aspect and compared to bm where u need ur pet in mid where it may easily die.

Execute is a crucial game changing ability, now imagine that with a 45 yard range (firstoff lol wtf 45 yards)... u cannot ignore kill shot. In addition it helps with defensive plays aswell, many times an efc may escape ur clutches with only 10-20% hp left, kill shot prevents that.

 

[Laurenti]

pugs are what new players to the bracket base their opinion of if they want to continue playing or not. If they come in and ferals are left and right one shotting and bm monks are rolling around invincible they arent going to like the bracket.. and there WONT BE A META

There is a difference between banning a class, and everyone in the bracket playing the class.
Enhance shamans are the burstiest single-target spec? Yes.
Are enhance shamans banned? No
Is every player in every game an enhance shaman? No
Are a large majority of players in every game an enhance shaman? No
Using some basic reasoning, we can deduce that just because a class is OP and is not banned, not everyone will play it
There are many examples of this logic, I just happen to be one of them.

inb4 someone without comprehension skills comes through, and accuses me of trying to ban enhance shamans from pugs

 

[BACKPEDDLE]

I never said that we shouldn't ban ferals in premades, or allow guard in premades. Your two post quotes are completely irrelevant to anything in this discussion about melee cleaves lmao. Not sure what either of those quotes (which are 100% my opinion, which I am allowed to have, whether you like it or not ) have to do with melee cleave and its potential restrictions IN PREMADES!.
I simply stated my opinion that I think it is stupid to regulate what abilities and specs people play in PICK UP GAMES! ( IN THE PICK UP GAME THREAD), and you are quoting them as if that is relevant to the conversation in this PREMADE! thread.

Someone please get this lost enhance shaman a map back into the pug gulch where he belongs, or at least give him a map to figure out the 39 section of TI at the very least

It is absolutely relevant. It shows that you have no clue about balance in the 39 bracket and that you don't actually care about the longevity of the bracket. Thus, your opinions should be held to a lesser value than others.

This is just a PSA post so people can take everything you say with a grain of salt.

Carry on, twinkers

 

[Laurenti]

It shows that you have no clue about balance in the 39 bracket and that you don't actually care about the longevity of the bracket. Thus, your opinions should be held to a lesser value than others.

My philosophical reasons for not restricting people in pugs ( which is a really unrealistic thing to do) have nothing to do with premade balance in any way, shape, or form. Quit linking posts from a completely different thread and attempting to use them to invalidate anything I say in this thread, where they have no relevance. I am entitled to my opinion, please deal with it maturely.

Don't tell me that I don't care about the longevity of the bracket, I enjoy 39s and I believe that they will continue to give me fun games. I play a fire mage and am happy with pugs. You are the one, sitting here on a flash-bomb spamming enhance, QQing about how other people are making bgs less fun for you by using class abilities. Hypocrite much?

My opinions are just as relevant as yours, if not more. How many premades have you played in this revival?
That's what I thought. Don't try to talk down to me [MENTION=17118]BACKPEDDLE[/MENTION], you sound about as silly as a flash-bomb spamming enhance shaman complaining about pug balance.... Oh wait, nevermind

 

[anatomyx]

edit: the entire point of a meta is that it evolves over time, as games are played and teams modify their current strategies to compete in the current "meta". You don't sit there and start restricting things immediately after the first premade, you play games and let the meta evolve. Please, quit trying to fuck with it and restrict things, before teams have even had time to modify their strategies...

The problem is that by allowing melee to run rampant in premades, the meta will NOT develop further because everyone will just run melee cleaves because they've already proven in both PUGs and now premades that they're extremely strong. It's a very safe and easy composition to play and there's little to no reason to deviate from it other than "just because". As I've already said, there's no way to counter melee when melee is strong like in this bracket. You're forced to run melee against it yourself or you're at a huge disadvantage.

It will be way more interesting to see people weighing their options between which melee to bring and which ranged to bring instead of just picking every melee and cleaving people.

A perfect example of comp modification to fit into the meta, if whoever is in charge of JCM's team composition has any brain cells ( which I am 100% sure that they do), then when JCM premades next, they will have more melee dps and fewer casters. OR, they will have a better strategy of how they want to use their casters, and they will be more effective with it. Either way, they modified their team to fit into the meta.

I'm the one in charge of JCM's premading squad and you're 100% right, if we premade again and nothing changes with rules then we will be running a melee cleave to "fit into the meta". However, that is a playstyle that my entire team would rather not use because it's extremely boring to play and play against. We came to 39 because we figured it would have a lot more to offer than 19, but if everyone is just playing melee cleaves and globalling each other all game with no cc, we might as well just continue playing 19 because that's exactly how every single 19 premade is too. I understand how for a person who is primarily a 19 player like yourself this type of play might seem appealing, but for those who have experienced other brackets, melee cleaving is about as far as you can get from fun gameplay.

Honestly, if there's nothing set in place for restricting melee in the future I don't even think I'll waste my time playing, because it's just not fun.

 

[Scrubhuntin]

exactly.. 19's where it is really difficult to play any class well. if the lights are out it's hard to find that 1 button.

39's has depth.. dont take that depth away by letting melee run rampant. Watching some mages pull off some crazy stuff would be much cooler than a BM rolling around all over the place.

 

[bigmoran]

Spriest is the best DPS class at 39 by far.

I love how the discussion has been about BMs/Ferals/Enhance being too strong but everyone ignores the true DPS gods.

 

[Srs]

Disc - undecided on best glyph ( reflect, double cleanse or interrupt immune<---DISCUSS )

Glyph of Reflect is auto learned at level 50 along with Glyph of Mind Blast and Smite.

Glyph of Penance is level 75. This means you can't buy them off AH, or obtain them in any other way. Basically, many if not most of the best glyphs are not available to low levels due to Blizzard's retardedness.

I'm thinking of rolling Glyph of the Inquisitor because yolo.

 

[Boostz]

Twitch 19:30.

This may not be a popular opinion but Enhance should not be allowed in competitive premades. There is zero setup required for their damage that is similar to being chaos bolted/FB'd at 19.

 

[Shook]

Twitch 19:30.

This may not be a popular opinion but Enhance should not be allowed in competitive premades. There is zero setup required for their damage that is similar to being chaos bolted/FB'd at 19.

Did we figure out how he moved so fast at 01:12:50? Bugged in wargames or what?

 

[Scrubhuntin]

im guessing something to do with travel form in water not applying stacks got bugged when he came out of water with sprint.. could possibly recreate it i'd think

 

[Eclipsis]

There's two speed bugs one is technically intended the other is just a bug. If you speed boost at the same time the stacks change then you aren't affected for the duration of that stack, which is why he ran for all of stack 7. This is a bug that happens a lot by accident especially with druids and rogues at endgame because of the amount of ways they have to remove slows / change speed.

The second is that the 6 stack speed buff only reduces run speed and not swim speed, blizzard I guess forgot that there are ways for certain classes to gain a lot of swim speed, for example the minor glyph of aquatic form, aquatic form itself and wild charge aquatic form.

 

[Revolution]

Heals have a 40 yd range. CC has a 30 yard range ( Poly/Fear ). If the melee are pushing in, then the healers will get dragged forward. dropping a cast on a healer and blinking/blazing speeding out isn't that complicated. Locks can shadowfury heals at range with an instant cast, etc. My point is, putting any bit of pressure on a team's healers when they are pushing is huge. Even a BM throwing a single barrel onto the enemy healers can cause a problem. If the melee dps overextend, they die. If they don't overextend, and stay within range of their healers, you just alleviated a ton of offensive pressure.

Also, CC counters melee. Sheep a dps, it can't hurt you. Sheep a healer, it can't keep it's dps up. Don't tell me that CC can't counter a melee offensive push

hahahahahaha
please dont ever play a mage man i think u'd be lost as fk

 

[Dime]

All this Melee hate! I would like to point out in game 2 JCM had more melee then us.........Hunter would have been good for them I believe

after watching sudo's VOD I believe they lost because of comm. GY would have probably stalled long enough for a win.

 

[Snowjobs]

just looking at the numbers at the end of both games. (in order of most damage) Never saw board on Tp game . I may check mvp's vod to if I can see it there.

Game 1
Spriest
Warrior
Spriest
Aflic
Bm-(RID)
Hunter
Enh
Balance
Fire
Bm-(jcm)
Rogue
Rogue

Game 2
Spriest
Spriest
Bm-(RID)
warrior
aflic
hunter
Enh
Ret
bm
ret
eh
rogue

Observations:
Spriest are damage GODS but have only guise and should be big kill targets or heal priorities
-
Real id Bm Did about double the damage of JCM Bm in first two games.
-
Classes with aoe cc will see play imo (pally blind made a few key plays happen) wouldn't be surprised to see a demo running howl of terror
-
Hunters droping frost trap on heals is huge in order to stop a rogue from cc'ing all of them at once. turning on rogues is going to be big as well.
-
enhance damage was a little lower than expected but it was all crammed into small windows with lots of utility.
-
counting down burst is huge. Jcm Started doing it in TP but stoped after like 4 min and you could see the effects when they did.
-
rogue and hunter and spriest will be mandatory on TC teams.
_
comp variety will deff show up . Do you take double spriest but loose your disc ? . do you go double rshaman and loose your enh ? whats your third healer if you run with a sp and enh ? Rdruid (mana efficient) or MW(rip tea) . do you take warrior for huge damage or ret for the aoe blind, ranged execute, stun and offheals.(will be a bigger choice in other bgs)
-
Don't think we have seen enough from mages to rule them out yet,



all just thoughts and observations . Keep up the great discussions

 

[Fancy]

I think that comp is just about spot on, but to strong for meta, take away 1 bm or enh or warrior then replace with another dps will make games more interesting. but double rogue shouldnt be allowed either.

Highest chance that premades will be 2 of 3 with warrior bm and enhance to make games more interesting. Like I have discussed this with Living and it is being considered as a Rule for the twink cup

 

[Boostz]

after watching sudo's VOD I believe they lost because of comm. GY would have probably stalled long enough for a win.

Nah GY would have gotten him killed with your team on ramp.

Twitch 55:00, god that was hilarious. I love Roula. Always exciting times.

 

[Dime]

Nah GY would have gotten him killed with your team on ramp.

Twitch 55:00, god that was hilarious. I love Roula. Always exciting times.

lol, I see what you mean with the split team after he picked. But why drop it in the first place? haha

 

[Boostz]

He would have died with stacks as we were wiping and no one could repick because our rogue died. His move was good, it would have obv been better to have someone else hold, but we didn't have that chance. He just panicked in the end and miscalled in skype.

He was saying gy, gy, gy over and over as he was coming down tunnel.

 

[Snowjobs]

current thoughts on BFG Comps


heals x 3 + 1 hpally maybey (aoe blind + stun + nice shock burst+ bubble to prevent rogue ninjas)
rogue
frost mage
lock with howl of terror
hunter
bm
spriest ?

I feel like you want to be able to counter rogue ninja on your 1st flag with as few people as possible. class that can do that would probably be hunter. do you have another class sit with your hunter ? or do you bank on him holding till another res.

so much goes into BFG strat vs a simple hold the flag kill te other flag strat I cant wait till we get to play it.