Death Knight...?

[Bakedaflol]

Frost is really kool atm, they got buffed with last patch release. Consistent dmg, constant slows, aoe-slows, stun. They scale super good with Mastery. (Mastery/haste seems really fun with it, though other builds are great too.)
They also proc Crusaders like a fury warrior, wich is at a REALLY good rate.

UH has been strong since SL pre-patch. Though they are alot more cooldown-based than Frost, it's still the main spec to go for DKs usually. Insane burst

 

[Celydar]

Not to be a goofball and hijack my own thread — buuut how’s Rogue doing? I don’t know why, but Sub intrigues me... no clue if it (or Outlaw or Assassination) pumps out legitimate damage, but I don’t have a million friends I play with, so I often find myself the sole person working toward objectives in BGs if it falls apart or no one else cares... at least Rogue is somewhat better equipped to do that when your team is getting whomped!

Outlaw is strong, with the right gear.
I've never played it well, the couple times I tried.
I prefer Assi to Sub, but generally see more Sub rogues around in matches.
Rogue is fun. Both Assi and Sub hit pretty hard, just avoid Warrs, Dk's if u can, heavy metal in general are harder to down.
It's nice to sneak past PvE mobs too.
I recommend Night Elf for the Shadowmeld racial, or Human for the free yourself from stuns racial.
Shadowmeld is a way to stealth out as a level 20 on a 2 min CD, since you don't have Vanish just yet.
If you go horde, I'd say Vulpera for the racial damage thing they have, and as they are smaller can be harder to target.

 

[JadeFire]

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/bleeding-hollow/naxxrammer

Now I never played it in WGs nor have I played him currently with the Crusader bug. The "No melee" approach is what I went for when artifact weapons were around. It was just about doing massive frost damage pressure to all targets and then running down/pulling heals/off heals. Worked pretty well, there were many games where I kept up with hunter damage. I did not use crusader for that reason, as elemental force was just better by far for that play style.

The melee approach always failed because at that time I did not have an i49 and it was REQUIRED to melee effectively. Now you might get a way with it. But again, I just feel like trying to melee AS FROST is doing what an DK is not set up to do at the 20s... which is just pressure. Again, you also have no execute... which is a MASSIVE bonus that warrior has over you.

Best racial for the 20s is hands down will of the forsaken since fear is the most popular defense mechanic. The amount of times it results in a kill or you escaping can't be counted.

Dead of Winter is one of the best pvp abilities in the 20s.

I would just stack strength and vers. They are ALWAYS good in any situation, maybe not the best for a specific encounter, but always good... mastery added some frost damage, but it was not that great as you lose a huge % when you get into a BG and just came at the cost of losing socket strength or verse. I'd just go for 200 str and verse.

I see people running around with the Blade of Baron Von Ruebenbeard or whatever its called... nope.

Yeah and Naxxrammer has some weird ass gear on him, but still works.

[doublepost=1640810948,1640793707][/doublepost]Yeah, elemental force/str/verse still works just fine.

 

[toskosa]

its strange because it feels like frost is the dot spec and unholy isn't at 20.

 

[Warglave]

there were many games where I kept up with hunter damage.

I feel like the issue with that is that hunter damage is significant, meaningful, single-target damage and frost DK is mostly less effective AoE "padding" damage... not saying DK and/or you are not effective with it, just that it's not exactly apples to apples. I like DK but I had issue with rune regen myself at low levels, things could certainly have changed since then tho.

 

[Celydar]

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/bleeding-hollow/naxxrammer

Now I never played it in WGs nor have I played him currently with the Crusader bug. The "No melee" approach is what I went for when artifact weapons were around. It was just about doing massive frost damage pressure to all targets and then running down/pulling heals/off heals. Worked pretty well, there were many games where I kept up with hunter damage. I did not use crusader for that reason, as elemental force was just better by far for that play style.

The melee approach always failed because at that time I did not have an i49 and it was REQUIRED to melee effectively. Now you might get a way with it. But again, I just feel like trying to melee AS FROST is doing what an DK is not set up to do at the 20s... which is just pressure. Again, you also have no execute... which is a MASSIVE bonus that warrior has over you.

Best racial for the 20s is hands down will of the forsaken since fear is the most popular defense mechanic. The amount of times it results in a kill or you escaping can't be counted.

Dead of Winter is one of the best pvp abilities in the 20s.

I would just stack strength and vers. They are ALWAYS good in any situation, maybe not the best for a specific encounter, but always good... mastery added some frost damage, but it was not that great as you lose a huge % when you get into a BG and just came at the cost of losing socket strength or verse. I'd just go for 200 str and verse.

I see people running around with the Blade of Baron Von Ruebenbeard or whatever its called... nope.

Yeah and Naxxrammer has some weird ass gear on him, but still works.

[doublepost=1640810948,1640793707][/doublepost]Yeah, elemental force/str/verse still works just fine.

Yee, that was me on my Warr, Ashe, we got rekt that one

 

[JadeFire]

I feel like the issue with that is that hunter damage is significant, meaningful, single-target damage and frost DK is mostly less effective AoE "padding" damage... not saying DK and/or you are not effective with it, just that it's not exactly apples to apples. I like DK but I had issue with rune regen myself at low levels, things could certainly have changed since then tho.

Not arguing with you at all... but, if you look at that way... any class is trash compared to hunter right now... shadow priest (possibly the one shining light in the hands of a grand-fucking-master), whatever... its trash comparatively.

And DK is significantly better the larger the fight and the more twinks there are. You want fever to be on 10 targets that are all getting healed and where the constant 1000hp drain is really taxing enemy heals.

To enjoy DK (unless you are one of these psychos that enjoys just farming for HKs) you need the game to be even.

Rune Regen does not seem to be an issue, I don't get the whole "haste thing"... I have and even if you stack haste to 40%... its almost unnoticeable... you are just crapping on your dps to do crap dps faster... but, there is always a theory crafter that has another opinion.

 

[Warglave]

I agree, and would play DK the same way with the same reasoning.... just offering why it's often dismissed.

I think my rune problems may have been before SL and an ability-not-until-level-X issue, possibly resolved since. Also the level 10 FDK i made always died waiting for runes to pop while soloing PvE, might have skewed my opinion on that.

 

[icehawk]

I’m no expert, but Ive always had rune problems on Frost & Unholy. But to be fair I haven’t given much time to working them out.
Blood feels more balanced at 20 rune wise. Maybe I’ve just got the rotation better on Blood. It does come down to rotation and Im probably too used to a Hunter that can just dump focus without too many issues.
From the little I know, I’m still a fan of Haste on DK’s…..

 

[JadeFire]

It's just how it plays out in the average game at 20. Everybody has frost fever on them... then you have a bunch of haste that is worthless... you are going to get into melee range of a warrior or a hunter and worry about how fast your runes come back at 20?... good luck with that. You will lose and your haste build will suck.

If there was another dump for runes besides obliterate which is comparatively worthless to most melee abilities, then sure... there is not. All stacking haste does (to any level that matters) is lower your overall damage... by a lot... also remember there are no more i49s to carry handicapped people.

You light everybody up... pull people off of heals at max range then just slow them and run off. That is it... maybe 10-15 kills per game that you can "steal" with frost strike.

Everybody will have a magical game once in a while or post some shit from 3AM where they rolled 10 levelers... not what I'm looking for.

I have yet to be impressed beyond what I've been able to do with Naxx... I've seen plenty do similar, but from what I can see they just stacked strength and then had some "left over secondaries" that could have been anything. There is no ego there, I have just heard a lot of "this dude is good, talk to billybob, copy that build, etc." ... still waiting.

And again, DK is a tier 3 pile, that you have to make work... that is the appeal.

There will always be some pocket healed dog shit guy with an opinion too... I get it, it is what it is.

 

[Sarmlery]

I'm interested in unholy as a pure free to play. And I'm just curious to the state of the class and spec. Sorry if this question has been flooded.

 

[icehawk]

I'm having a blast with a DK. I'm really enjoying Blood and the whole tanking thing and also PvP as Blood is fun.
Unholy has some real burst potential, but it's not easy keeping sustained dps going. Maybe if you give it a good try you may be able to. I'm finding the rune management quite tricky at 20.
Frost I find the weakest of the specs. But I haven't played enough of Frost to be any sort of expert.
In general, they have great utility and are probably better at utility than trying to top dps charts or anything like that.
Nothing more fun than Death Dripping a back peddling Huntard after they Disengage

 

[JadeFire]

I'm having a blast with a DK. I'm really enjoying Blood and the whole tanking thing and also PvP as Blood is fun.
Unholy has some real burst potential, but it's not easy keeping sustained dps going. Maybe if you give it a good try you may be able to. I'm finding the rune management quite tricky at 20.
Frost I find the weakest of the specs. But I haven't played enough of Frost to be any sort of expert.
In general, they have great utility and are probably better at utility than trying to top dps charts or anything like that.
Nothing more fun than Death Dripping a back peddling Huntard after they Disengage

How do you like Blood? Naxx was my first twink I built for SL and I just kind of left him alone (hence no socket rings etc... which is sad since I play him the most/is hands down the most fun). As much as I complain about versatility and don't think it matters that much in the current meta Naxx does 28% verse... because that was the least expensive gear I could find and the easiest to get. I just look at it as "adds 28% of damage to Frost Fever, not Iz can fights that hunter now!". I get that using elemental force is also junk... but, just goes with what I think Frost is at this level... a super affliction warlock.

I will say this, I find without exception the weakest frost players, stacked mastery and haste... they scale too badly inside a BG and the game does not play out where the haste matters... ever... their DPS is just gimped... which seems the opposite tho if you want to play unholy.

***
I'm not pressing the right buttons or my expectations might be too high.

For Blood: What do you think about versatility (I think I get my 28% scaled down to 22%) in a BG verses mastery (which I see you stacked). Does the absorption shield really matter that much versus just healing more if you had verse?

Do you just try to blooddrinker people to death?

Do you just stand by a healer, what are you trying to accomplish? Are you just trying to get runic power so you can deathstrike something?

With 230 str and 22% verse in a BG heartseeker does like 140 damage even with the pvp talent because its physical... what I'm getting at is what does blood offer besides frost that is not just taking 50% more tank damage and doing less damage?

 

[icehawk]

How do you like Blood? Naxx was my first twink I built for SL and I just kind of left him alone (hence no socket rings etc... which is sad since I play him the most/is hands down the most fun). As much as I complain about versatility and don't think it matters that much in the current meta Naxx does 28% verse... because that was the least expensive gear I could find and the easiest to get. I just look at it as "adds 28% of damage to Frost Fever, not Iz can fights that hunter now!". I get that using elemental force is also junk... but, just goes with what I think Frost is at this level... a super affliction warlock.

I will say this, I find without exception the weakest frost players, stacked mastery and haste... they scale too badly inside a BG and the game does not play out where the haste matters... ever... their DPS is just gimped... which seems the opposite tho if you want to play unholy.

***

For Blood: What do you think about versatility (I think I get my 28% scaled down to 22%) in a BG verses mastery (which I see you stacked). Does the absorption shield really matter that much versus just healing more if you had verse?

Do you just try to blooddrinker people to death?

Do you just stand by a healer, what are you trying to accomplish?

With 220 str and 22% verse in a BG heartseeker does like 140 damage even with the pvp talent because its physical... what I'm getting at is what does blood offer besides frost that is not just taking 50% more tank damage and less damage?

Many years ago, I had a Blood DK alt, as did a friend and we would do doubles arena (end game), we'd hit with wet noodles, but were unkillable. There were many 45 min matches - cramping hands and stuff, but much fun.
I play Blood because I enjoy it and it does bring back good memories. but Blood back in the day, as with all tanks got hit with the extra dps nerf bat.

However at 20, Blood has a lot of abilities to get their health back. It's why I also use the Orb trinket, so I'm healing 50% of my dps when I pop it - especially vs Hunters. With all CD's available + trinket (yeah, ok, it's sort of cheating) I'm able to 1 v 1 a lot of Hunters, other that the really well played ones. Plus in crowded fights, get your Blood Boil out and Leech from those ticks.

The PvP talent keeps them slowed after the Death Grip, AMS allows you to walk over traps or avoid mage freezes etc, Get your bone shield up for the extra armor and you can start to be a real nuisance.

I chose Mastery for the extra AP, the Blood Shield is weak, but can take the edge of melee strikes. I can still put a dent in people with high Str + Mastery AP. And Blood Drinker + Orb is very handy.

I would have liked a Leech Set, but sadly I don't have that yet. I have a decent Speed set for Flag runs. Haste also takes off 1.5s, or around 1.2s inside a bg for rune regen. I really would like more Haste for PvE as I get starved of runes in a long fight, but not that often in PvP.

Generally I'll be in the top 7 or so in a bg, the odd occasion on top. That's usually if it's a crowded fight with lots of Blood Boils.

Sometimes, being a big punching bag at a node while waiting for your team mates to arrive is all that's needed to hold a base, or swing a battle.

I only solo queue, so very rarely will I be near a heals, Blood can heal quite well, and 1 v 1 can be quite tough to take down. The extra 50% damage I don't notice as much. Used to feel a lot worse last X-Pac when I did some Prot Warrior PvP.

What am I trying to accomplish......

Being a nuisance for the Horde

 

[JadeFire]

Many years ago, I had a Blood DK alt, as did a friend and we would do doubles arena (end game), we'd hit with wet noodles, but were unkillable. There were many 45 min matches - cramping hands and stuff, but much fun.
I play Blood because I enjoy it and it does bring back good memories. but Blood back in the day, as with all tanks got hit with the extra dps nerf bat.

However at 20, Blood has a lot of abilities to get their health back. It's why I also use the Orb trinket, so I'm healing 50% of my dps when I pop it - especially vs Hunters. With all CD's available + trinket (yeah, ok, it's sort of cheating) I'm able to 1 v 1 a lot of Hunters, other that the really well played ones. Plus in crowded fights, get your Blood Boil out and Leech from those ticks.

The PvP talent keeps them slowed after the Death Grip, AMS allows you to walk over traps or avoid mage freezes etc, Get your bone shield up for the extra armor and you can start to be a real nuisance.

I chose Mastery for the extra AP, the Blood Shield is weak, but can take the edge of melee strikes. I can still put a dent in people with high Str + Mastery AP. And Blood Drinker + Orb is very handy.

I would have liked a Leech Set, but sadly I don't have that yet. I have a decent Speed set for Flag runs. Haste also takes off 1.5s, or around 1.2s inside a bg for rune regen. I really would like more Haste for PvE as I get starved of runes in a long fight, but not that often in PvP.

Generally I'll be in the top 7 or so in a bg, the odd occasion on top. That's usually if it's a crowded fight with lots of Blood Boils.

Sometimes, being a big punching bag at a node while waiting for your team mates to arrive is all that's needed to hold a base, or swing a battle.

I only solo queue, so very rarely will I be near a heals, Blood can heal quite well, and 1 v 1 can be quite tough to take down. The extra 50% damage I don't notice as much. Used to feel a lot worse last X-Pac when I did some Prot Warrior PvP.

What am I trying to accomplish......

Being a nuisance for the Horde

View attachment 20550

Does the extra stamina from the +2s help you out a lot in actual play, or could you do the same with out it?

 

[icehawk]

Does the extra stamina from the +2s help you out a lot in actual play, or could you do the same with out it?

I feel it does help.
I originally tried a full Str set with +3’s but it actually wiped a lot of health off, and with the extra damage taken in PvP it just didn’t feel tough enough.
In the end I’ve chosen to lose some Str for Stam and it feels like it’s in a better place now.

 

[JadeFire]

Looking for input/thoughts on Frost DK

I have 2 DKs - Naxrammer (he is wearing just verse shit I found in the general dungeon toilet) and Space Blade (mastery pile with i28s at 83% mastery)... they are missing about 12 strength each from slots... however... NAXX would just come out ahead there because his streigth+verse would just combine better and Spaceblade would get no more mastery just the strength. Real shit: *I'm not about to pay 2mil for a verse socket ring so NAXX can do an additional 10 damage per FF*

These are world numbers:

Naxx has 213str / 19% mastery / and 28% verse
Spaceblade I built with mastery 197str / 6% verse

Naxx does 215 Obliterate + 82 Inexorable
Naxx does a 55 HB + 651 FF
Spaceblade does 167 Obliterate + 97 Inexorable
Spaceblade does a 65 + 777 FF
Naxx does a 189 Frost strike
Spaceblade does a 229 Frost strike.

The numbers to be do not justify Mastery at all... it scales terribly inside a BG... versatility is just a percentage increase so when you get a crusader proc you just go nuclear. Am I looking at that wrong some how?

Where did the Mastery idea start? is its just because it looks cool/or again what am I looking at incorrectly. I just don't see it.

Mastery + Frost strike, I imagined that Frost strike would benefit much more from mastery... but the math just shows it's a real turd.
***

Also side note, is this still correct... the Cudgel of Naralex will give you some additional chance to proc crusader per minute (the actual % seems to evade the community).. is that a correct statement? Is it worth using a green Cudgel?


Side note:
*Haste > I've just put on random gear and had haste up to 50% just to see what happens... it's a visual/practical/actual "F"... you are getting maybe 1 more rune every complete cycle and your damage goes into the toilet. Not interested in hearing about haste, it's bad, opinions on that just don't matter to me, I've seen it play out with my own eyes (no offense meant).

 

[Kaxle]

If nothing else for unholy spawning a bunch of https://www.wowhead.com/spell=210128/reanimation zombies and death gripping the healer into them and watching the rest of the zombies walk into them while they are stunned is always funny;

Also side note, is this still correct... the Cudgel of Naralex will give you some additional chance to proc crusader per minute (the actual % seems to evade the community).. is that a correct statement? Is it worth using a green Cudgel?

Its like a ~1.6-2% chance increase per weapon hit, not as noticeable on DK as it is warrior since they have more abilities with proc chances

 

[Chops]

Cudgel of Naralex will give you some additional chance to proc crusader per minute (the actual % seems to evade the community)

I think it just evades you. The math is easy enough.

Crusader is (if memory serves) a 1 ppm enchant. Which means on a standard 2.6 speed 1 hander, you get a crusader proc once every 23 attacks or a 4.35% chance. With Cudgels 3.6 speed, you get a crusader proc once every 16.6 (repeating, of course) attacks or a 6.02% chance to proc.

Like Kaxle said, its (near as makes no difference) about 2% more likely to proc with Cudgel (and 2 handers) than with a regular speed 1 hander. Its not the primary reason to use Cudgel (that would be the weapon dmg) but its a nice little bonus.

 

[JadeFire]

I think it just evades you. The math is easy enough.

Crusader is (if memory serves) a 1 ppm enchant. Which means on a standard 2.6 speed 1 hander, you get a crusader proc once every 23 attacks or a 4.35% chance. With Cudgels 3.6 speed, you get a crusader proc once every 16.6 (repeating, of course) attacks or a 6.02% chance to proc.

Like Kaxle said, its (near as makes no difference) about 2% more likely to proc with Cudgel (and 2 handers) than with a regular speed 1 hander. Its not the primary reason to use Cudgel (that would be the weapon dmg) but its a nice little bonus.

you are a sharp witted little turd I'll give you that, however I've asked that question 100 times and gotten 100 different answers, so it's not just me. So basically the cudgel does not matter, end of that part of the discussion, and it was a minor one. When I put the green cudgel main hand versus anything else, the overall damage goes down, so maybe if I had a blue one, it would be worth it, I've been told that before, sucks to suck on that roll.