Chops
Soccer Dad
for DK, probably not.
Death Knight...?
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icehawk
The Beast Within
Now let me tell you something about h..... h... h.... sorry, I can't say it with you in this thread.....
Just letting you know, I am going to play around a little with Frost, and see what I can find out.
I don't know much about it, so will be running some dungeons, smacking some dummy's and then slapping some Horde so I can get a feel for it before making any comment on Frost.
Stay tuned.
JadeFire
Worthless
You plan on hitting things or playing basically affliction warlock with better utility? I try to stay out of melee range as much as possible, unless I pull a healer and then try to just beat on him with blit... will be nice to see what you think on both.
[doublepost=1641572924,1641564451][/doublepost]I did recently make a full leech Harmonious set with sockets for the most part, I think its 15% leech in BG... you lose considerable damage do to lower strength, but you don't have to ever heal and it just lets you ignore enemy DOTS annoying stuff, so sill working with that.
You still can't melee anybody, the DK melee damage is still just ass in comparison.
mirrorbender
Grandfathered
My thoughts on frost:
I agree that what frost does best is basically utility + spread frost fever at range. Your single target damage is just not good, and no matter how much strength you stack, you're never going to hit like a warrior. Obliterate hits like a wet noodle and is mostly just a runic power generator. Frost strike is a little better but not much. Your moneymaker abilities are death grip and chains of ice. Death grip is amazing, it can't be said enough how good it is. All you need is some teammates who can hit something when it is placed directly in front of them. Howling blast/frost fever ends up being most of your damage, and it pads the meters nicely. Frost fever is super easy to spread because of the AoE nature of howling blast. It also has a chance to generate runic power when it ticks, so you should have plenty of RP to dump into frost strikes after you death grip a priority target into the middle of your team.
2H vs Cudgel + OH is a real debate, to be had and I'm not sure which is better. 2H makes oblierate better (but still not that good), and otherwise tooltips stay about the same, very slightly better with a 2H. There are more good 2H options than off hand options, like runeblade for speed or crow wing for 3x sockets.
You should definitely be using cudgel if you are dual wielding, otherwise the damage just lags behind 2H. The upside of dual wield is that it gets you an off hand weapon enchant, and can increase your crusader procs if you go with double crusader. However, since crusader doesn't proc off of your ranged abilities, it doesn't make that much of a difference for frost most of the time, and I think there is an argument to be made for flat attack power enchants, or elemental force. Crusader in its current state is mostly good for helping you survive if you get caught in a melee fight you don't want to be in. I guess you'd want to use blackout truncheon for off hand if dual wielding (for 2 sockets), but its not that great because haste is not that great as I'll get to later, and like crusader it only procs of melee attacks. Otherwise, idk what would be a standout option for off hand.
In terms of secondary stats:
Haste might feel good when your are using your melee abilities, but it's actually pretty garbo because it doesn't affect frost fever at all, and realistically, that's where most of your damage comes from. I don't know why it behaves this way with frost fever, but it does. It doesn't increase tick rate or tooltip damage, it's a huge bummer. Since you aren't really good at melee damage and obliterate sucks, you are mostly going to be spending one rune at a time dotting people and slowing people, and 6 runes should be plenty for that at the base regen rate.
Mastery is good because it scales your frost damage well, and most of your damage is coming from frost fever, and your best melee ability is frost strike. The mastery coefficient for frost is 2, which is quite good given how much of your damage is frost. Even obliterate gets a little benefit if you're using inexorable assault.
Vers is vers. It makes you x% better at damage and x/2% tankier, and it's percentage scales a little worse than crit or haste. It's good.
Crit is fine to have but not very good. You don't have any big damage abilities that become super scary when they crit, so crit just ends up as a mostly passive dps boost that is only 75% as effective in pvp.
Overall, its not a particularly strong spec, but it is at least interesting to play and can definitely contribute in a competitive game. It's a rot spec, not a damage carry, the utility is very good, tankiness is decent because plate armor and crusader, and mobility sucks. To me frost is the only DK that feels like it has a truly unique playstyle, the other two just kind of feel like warrior but it's worse and you have death grip.
I agree that what frost does best is basically utility + spread frost fever at range. Your single target damage is just not good, and no matter how much strength you stack, you're never going to hit like a warrior. Obliterate hits like a wet noodle and is mostly just a runic power generator. Frost strike is a little better but not much. Your moneymaker abilities are death grip and chains of ice. Death grip is amazing, it can't be said enough how good it is. All you need is some teammates who can hit something when it is placed directly in front of them. Howling blast/frost fever ends up being most of your damage, and it pads the meters nicely. Frost fever is super easy to spread because of the AoE nature of howling blast. It also has a chance to generate runic power when it ticks, so you should have plenty of RP to dump into frost strikes after you death grip a priority target into the middle of your team.
2H vs Cudgel + OH is a real debate, to be had and I'm not sure which is better. 2H makes oblierate better (but still not that good), and otherwise tooltips stay about the same, very slightly better with a 2H. There are more good 2H options than off hand options, like runeblade for speed or crow wing for 3x sockets.
You should definitely be using cudgel if you are dual wielding, otherwise the damage just lags behind 2H. The upside of dual wield is that it gets you an off hand weapon enchant, and can increase your crusader procs if you go with double crusader. However, since crusader doesn't proc off of your ranged abilities, it doesn't make that much of a difference for frost most of the time, and I think there is an argument to be made for flat attack power enchants, or elemental force. Crusader in its current state is mostly good for helping you survive if you get caught in a melee fight you don't want to be in. I guess you'd want to use blackout truncheon for off hand if dual wielding (for 2 sockets), but its not that great because haste is not that great as I'll get to later, and like crusader it only procs of melee attacks. Otherwise, idk what would be a standout option for off hand.
In terms of secondary stats:
Haste might feel good when your are using your melee abilities, but it's actually pretty garbo because it doesn't affect frost fever at all, and realistically, that's where most of your damage comes from. I don't know why it behaves this way with frost fever, but it does. It doesn't increase tick rate or tooltip damage, it's a huge bummer. Since you aren't really good at melee damage and obliterate sucks, you are mostly going to be spending one rune at a time dotting people and slowing people, and 6 runes should be plenty for that at the base regen rate.
Mastery is good because it scales your frost damage well, and most of your damage is coming from frost fever, and your best melee ability is frost strike. The mastery coefficient for frost is 2, which is quite good given how much of your damage is frost. Even obliterate gets a little benefit if you're using inexorable assault.
Vers is vers. It makes you x% better at damage and x/2% tankier, and it's percentage scales a little worse than crit or haste. It's good.
Crit is fine to have but not very good. You don't have any big damage abilities that become super scary when they crit, so crit just ends up as a mostly passive dps boost that is only 75% as effective in pvp.
Overall, its not a particularly strong spec, but it is at least interesting to play and can definitely contribute in a competitive game. It's a rot spec, not a damage carry, the utility is very good, tankiness is decent because plate armor and crusader, and mobility sucks. To me frost is the only DK that feels like it has a truly unique playstyle, the other two just kind of feel like warrior but it's worse and you have death grip.
JadeFire
Worthless
Not a wargame perspective... which again has NOTHING to do with random pugs...
As I said before, funny how all of the "good" DKs went away after the i49 got ditched.
If haste really effected rune regen in any meaningful way, I would just ditch everything and make an Impatient gear set and just go for pure utility/irritation, but it does not.
When Frost DKs melee its just the most pitiful sight... the damage is just not acceptable versus other twinks. You can hit some levelers sure. Even with 2 crusader procs... its not great. You are just blowing runes on Blit and doing almost nothing. As you can see with the numbers I showed... its still pathetic, even with 230 in BG strength and 22% in BG verse... the numbers are just not present. As I showed, mastery does not do much either... it adds almost nothing to Inexorable Assault or Frost strike versus just taking more strength from BC/wherever socket gear that does not have mastery on it by default. And again, it does not matter who has what build... you are either gemming more strength for BC gem gear that does not have mastery, or you are taking i28 gear that has less strength and taking mastery that is basically just doing the same amount of damage overall... then you lose out on your versatility... and then that mastery just makes obliterate worse because you lost more strength... it is a pure catch 22.
Again, that is why I just gave up on crusader... and just went with elemental force for for just FF proc damage... you can blow 6 runes on 3 Blits and then 2 Frost strikes and still not get any Crusader procs, and even if you do, you blew your wad getting it, then you get some white hits... you are still not doing damage that is going to be effective versus any priest/monk/paladin/shaman heals (maybe a Restro druid).
Probably just Speed gear/Runeblade and just being annoying as fuck is the best possible build... but that is only fun when you are winning... or the few games where you really are messing with enemy healers.. but for that to really matter you need an evenly matched game... we see how many of those pre day... 1, 2?
The only thing I would upgrade on Naxxrammer or even could is add a socket to neck/ring/ring/and cloak... that would be +12ish strength and maybe 1 more % of verse in a BG (if even that) with i28s... that would increase my overall damage by maybe 1/10th of a percent.
Frosts shining light is that you don't have to melee.
As I said before, funny how all of the "good" DKs went away after the i49 got ditched.
If haste really effected rune regen in any meaningful way, I would just ditch everything and make an Impatient gear set and just go for pure utility/irritation, but it does not.
When Frost DKs melee its just the most pitiful sight... the damage is just not acceptable versus other twinks. You can hit some levelers sure. Even with 2 crusader procs... its not great. You are just blowing runes on Blit and doing almost nothing. As you can see with the numbers I showed... its still pathetic, even with 230 in BG strength and 22% in BG verse... the numbers are just not present. As I showed, mastery does not do much either... it adds almost nothing to Inexorable Assault or Frost strike versus just taking more strength from BC/wherever socket gear that does not have mastery on it by default. And again, it does not matter who has what build... you are either gemming more strength for BC gem gear that does not have mastery, or you are taking i28 gear that has less strength and taking mastery that is basically just doing the same amount of damage overall... then you lose out on your versatility... and then that mastery just makes obliterate worse because you lost more strength... it is a pure catch 22.
Again, that is why I just gave up on crusader... and just went with elemental force for for just FF proc damage... you can blow 6 runes on 3 Blits and then 2 Frost strikes and still not get any Crusader procs, and even if you do, you blew your wad getting it, then you get some white hits
... you are still not doing damage that is going to be effective versus any priest/monk/paladin/shaman heals (maybe a Restro druid).Probably just Speed gear/Runeblade and just being annoying as fuck is the best possible build... but that is only fun when you are winning... or the few games where you really are messing with enemy healers.. but for that to really matter you need an evenly matched game... we see how many of those pre day... 1, 2?
The only thing I would upgrade on Naxxrammer or even could is add a socket to neck/ring/ring/and cloak... that would be +12ish strength and maybe 1 more % of verse in a BG (if even that) with i28s... that would increase my overall damage by maybe 1/10th of a percent.
Frosts shining light is that you don't have to melee.
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icehawk
The Beast Within
I’m still playing with my melee Frost DK. Not interested in just spreading FF for damage.
Want to get in someone’s face and smackem around……
@JadeFire i notice u have a Str + Vers Blood set. How u finding that?
Blood is quite similar with single target dps being almost on par with Frost, well that’s what I’m finding so far. But interested how u find a Str set.
Want to get in someone’s face and smackem around……
@JadeFire i notice u have a Str + Vers Blood set. How u finding that?
Blood is quite similar with single target dps being almost on par with Frost, well that’s what I’m finding so far. But interested how u find a Str set.
JadeFire
Worthless
I'm still trying to figure it out... if you don't take Heartbreaker is seems like you never generate runic power at all... but, on the flip side Blooddrinker does like 900 so you can really just steal kills/smoke somebody with that. It does feel like I'm all in on Bloodrinker and Murderous Intent. I feel like deathcoil actually does more damage after you factor in its not Physical.
JadeFire
Worthless
They are good in wargames, I won't argue that.
Every random pug game anybody can grip a heals and chain it, that is just common sense ... but, what matters in a pug is if you team has the gas to kill the healer... because the DK won't... after you grip and blew a rune on chains you get to blit, blit, strike, blit, strike... you did 1.2k if you are flat out geared to the teeth.
I'm not saying you can't play that way, nobody said anything even close to that point... it's ONLY meaningful if your team has firepower... or if you are in a wargame (where I would hope your team has firepower). And also the 1 or 2 games a day where the teams are even in a flag match and you can actually CC a healer into the ground.
Ghouls are not that great with out the i49 and even the i34 to that degree (you can't just waylay the power it gave certain players and how it altered their perspective on the class)... and again, that has nothing to do with skill or anything, it's just simple damage output. While Unholy's Reanimation stun ghoul is good, Frost's dead of winter is just better at 20, by far.
I believe that grip/chains is well with in even the dumbest person's grasp as a basic DK strat.
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icehawk
The Beast Within
Ok, I've played around with Frost for a while, and I have to agree with the following comments:
I really want a DK that plays like a Warrior, and being able to dual wield I thought, maybe I'll be like those beserking Fury's.......
Well, Frost, in terms of melee plays more like a Rogue, only without the stuns, though you can talent a stun, but it requires someone to stand still like a salami for it to come off.....
Underwhelming is the word that comes to mind for melee Frost. I really tried, but just doesn't feel 'melee' enough for me. Sure if you can get a bunch of FF off in a pack you might be able to increase your melee capabilities, but 1 v 1..... forget it.
I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but I'm still a fan of Haste for DK's. Maybe because I want a melee style DK. Without it, you have large periods of being unable to use a melee ability..... I'm not interested in charging in, getting 1 hit off then scratching my nutsack for a few seconds waiting for runes to pop up again.
At least in Blood spec, with a decent amount of Haste, I seem to rarely have that down time, and hardly ever take a backwards step in a 1 v 1 situation, even against a geared Huntard. You have so many leech style abilities to get through the initial burst and then can grind them down.
I'm going to muck around a bit with Unholy to see how that feels as a melee class, but otherwise will be returning back to my beloved Blood.
and
I really want a DK that plays like a Warrior, and being able to dual wield I thought, maybe I'll be like those beserking Fury's.......
Well, Frost, in terms of melee plays more like a Rogue, only without the stuns, though you can talent a stun, but it requires someone to stand still like a salami for it to come off.....
Underwhelming is the word that comes to mind for melee Frost. I really tried, but just doesn't feel 'melee' enough for me. Sure if you can get a bunch of FF off in a pack you might be able to increase your melee capabilities, but 1 v 1..... forget it.
I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but I'm still a fan of Haste for DK's. Maybe because I want a melee style DK. Without it, you have large periods of being unable to use a melee ability..... I'm not interested in charging in, getting 1 hit off then scratching my nutsack for a few seconds waiting for runes to pop up again.
At least in Blood spec, with a decent amount of Haste, I seem to rarely have that down time, and hardly ever take a backwards step in a 1 v 1 situation, even against a geared Huntard. You have so many leech style abilities to get through the initial burst and then can grind them down.
I'm going to muck around a bit with Unholy to see how that feels as a melee class, but otherwise will be returning back to my beloved Blood.
JadeFire
Worthless
Ok, I've played around with Frost for a while, and I have to agree with the following comments:
and
I really want a DK that plays like a Warrior, and being able to dual wield I thought, maybe I'll be like those beserking Fury's.......
Well, Frost, in terms of melee plays more like a Rogue, only without the stuns, though you can talent a stun, but it requires someone to stand still like a salami for it to come off.....
Underwhelming is the word that comes to mind for melee Frost. I really tried, but just doesn't feel 'melee' enough for me. Sure if you can get a bunch of FF off in a pack you might be able to increase your melee capabilities, but 1 v 1..... forget it.
I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but I'm still a fan of Haste for DK's. Maybe because I want a melee style DK. Without it, you have large periods of being unable to use a melee ability..... I'm not interested in charging in, getting 1 hit off then scratching my nutsack for a few seconds waiting for runes to pop up again.
At least in Blood spec, with a decent amount of Haste, I seem to rarely have that down time, and hardly ever take a backwards step in a 1 v 1 situation, even against a geared Huntard. You have so many leech style abilities to get through the initial burst and then can grind them down.
I'm going to muck around a bit with Unholy to see how that feels as a melee class, but otherwise will be returning back to my beloved Blood.
If you want to melee I will agree on HASTE. DK has the same issue that Ret Pals have at this level... minimal abilities that do not overlap correctly on cool downs so half the time you are just doing basic melee swings. Where the Ret just has bad cooldowns at 20 the Frost DK and even Unholy just run out of runes, and unlike a warrior that has infinite rage... you do not. The only issue with haste it that even though you get to "use" those abilities more, it is often less damage than just gemming straight strength or making a harmonious verse/mastery set.
Some of the Grandfathered items still help immensely... if you missed out on the epic Haste locket from last year, you really have to take some shitty items to get your haste up... Haste gear just makes you hit like a wet noodle
However, I noticed that you have 2% verse... don't you take like 3500 from an Aimed Shot Crit with the tank penalty and no verse?
icehawk
The Beast Within
If they get the jump on me, then yes, between 2.5k & 3.5k crit……However, I noticed that you have 2% verse... don't you take like 3500 from an Aimed Shot Crit with the tank penalty and no verse?
But if we get a decent 1 v 1….. first Aimed Shot is interrupted by Death Grip, then they get slapped while trying to get distance, then 2nd Aimed Shot by Shadowmeld, 3rd by Thorns ring, quite often before the 3rd they turtle……
Then in between I’m healing up Blood DK style so if the fight is still going, can take 1 Aimed Shot.
Marks don’t bother me so much in a decent 1 v 1.
Surv probably bothers me more. Their sustained high dps is too much for me to heal through and they can’t be interrupted.
But all that being said, I feel like I have better survivability as Blood rather than Frost or Unholy.
JadeFire
Worthless
How important do you value showdowmeld versus anything else? Seemed integral in that fight sequence, do you think it's required? Survival just is what it is, I understand that part.
Have you ever thought about using the plasma shield on the belt, its kind of neat... it absorbs 750 in a BG which is nice for burst... you have to use third wind pots though, but you get to use both... last time I checked the healing injector shared a cool down with third wind.
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Warglave
Veteran
So... I did read everything here, but it's a lot to go through it all again - aside from crusader being broken right now and undeniably the only choice, did you discuss Elelmental Force for your non-melee frost DK? I feel like you did and was getting on board that idea looking over my DK. Or maybe other runeforgings, have to see how they work, lol.
Also noted that 2h was a minor tooltip damage increase basically across the board, but losing out on the extra enchant/runeforge of 1h probably kiboshes that idea...
My question for blood PvP, have you considered that broken crusader healing might be main cause to the success? Not really that it's "good" just that it's benefitting from broken overhealing, making it seem better than crap? I actually subbed to gear some stuff, cant test anything in BG for a few weeks. Curiousity has been piqued, lol.
edit- also worth noting, broke-sader makes it way easier to solo dungeon stuff now... helped me gear.
Also noted that 2h was a minor tooltip damage increase basically across the board, but losing out on the extra enchant/runeforge of 1h probably kiboshes that idea...
My question for blood PvP, have you considered that broken crusader healing might be main cause to the success? Not really that it's "good" just that it's benefitting from broken overhealing, making it seem better than crap? I actually subbed to gear some stuff, cant test anything in BG for a few weeks. Curiousity has been piqued, lol.
edit- also worth noting, broke-sader makes it way easier to solo dungeon stuff now... helped me gear.
icehawk
The Beast Within
I find I use Shadowmeld a lot. It’s a good defensive ability at this level.
Is it essential? probably not, but it is very useful. Even against casters, especially when u see a lock lining up a Chaos Bolt…..
Nelf is probably my favourite class, so I just take advantage of it. I don’t have access to Allied Races, but if I did I would likely go Lightforged for some extra dps output, plus the armor looks awesome.
I’ll check out the Plasma Shield. I haven’t really used it that much.
Blood was good before the broken Sader. Sure, it makes it even more so now. But I was doing Blood before it broke and it still felt sufficiently tanky before it.
Blood is more of a grinding down style. U grind toons into the ground.
But since Sader broke, I wouldn’t try taking down a Fury 1 v 1….. they will just heal through the damage no trouble at all….. that wasn’t the case before Sader got busted.