Best Mutilate Daggers

[The Saint]

Then they'll fail in pre-mades forever.

what if i told you i dont care.

 

[Karmaz]

Assassination is a completely viable spec. Hemo costs 30 energy and awards 1 combo point, Mutilate costs 55 energy and awards 2 combo points. On top of that Mutilate does more than twice the damage of Hemo, so you can easily sustain higher dps throughout a fight.

Silly rogues.

Maybe I was wrong about the spec, as when I tested it combat (in its current state) was a better spec then Assassination.

Warsong Gulch (and almost every part of PvP in this game) is not linear, in fact, it is probably the farthest from it.

This applies to damage as well. The game is not based upon how much consistent or sustained damage is able to be output, sure it can help but it isn't the only factor.

Eviscerate might be a good burst move for Hemo, but the sustained damage from mutilate is just much better for pressure especially on an FC or healers. The only people who prefer sub spec are those guys who can't live without their OMG BIG NUMBERS.

Whether the intentions of rogues that play this style are deliberate or not is arguable; the fact is that this play style (although rather simplistic) can be quite effective if harnessed correctly. People should play to the strengths of their classes rather than relying on consumables to carry them.

You complain about 'unfair advantages' all day long, yet when YOU have the advantage, you don't say a word. Do you really understand just how unbalanced classes are at low levels? Compare a class that has ZERO gap closers whatsoever at 19, vs a class that has a blink, a shadowstep, disengage, charge, and reverse life grip, ON TOP OF 40% instant travel form and 25% cat form (both of which stack with minor run speed increase now).

Specific class ability balance (variables that we have extremely limited to no control over) can not even be equated or applied towards the principle of Competitive Integrity. An example of this is our inability to scale damage of abilities.

Although arguing specifics is relatively trivial I just want to add in some clarification to the possible readers that may not have the full picture. The class that Willy is referring to is a Druid, which for its level 15 talent point gets to select one of three options:

- A multiplicative addition to movement speed of 15%
- An ability that is similar to that of a mage's Blink (but has a 30 second CD) and also puts the user in Cat Form and Prowl (stealth)
- An multi use ability (15 second CD) that has 6 different effects based upon the specific form it is activated in:

- Bear - charge with a 4 second immobilize
- Cat - longer range charge with 3 second daze
- Travel - 20 yard leap similar to the Goblin Jump Racial
- Moonkin - a disengage similar to hunters but requires a global (one to get into Moonkin, one to use disengage)
- Aqua - increased swimming speed by 150% for X seconds
- No Form - A leap to a friendly player

To make clear the "instant" 40% travel form (outside only) and 25% from Cat Form does require the use of a global to activate.

By your logic, no druids should be using ANY of those tools, because the only way most classes have to even stand a chance at countering them is to use a consumable.

Or as described above they could modify their play style to be more conducive to the strengths and weaknesses of the specific class they play and the one(s) they face.

A consumable which is easy to farm, and available to nearly everyone who puts forth even the slightest amount of effort.

Again I will quote a previous statement:

The principle "Integrity of Competition" is not based upon how hard an item is to obtain because the variable of acquirability bears no relevance to the issue.

You can make a case for consumables in premades ONLY because the organizers can make/enforce any arbitrary rule they want to. NOT because limiting consumables is the morally superior path to creating a balanced environment.

To say that the rules are arbitrary is quite ironic due to the fact that every single one of them has a legitimate and logical reason for being in existence (although if your perception of the word arbitrary differs, please define it). Due to premades being one of the pinnacle forms of competition trying to structure play style as close to the defined limitations of a premade allows for more realistic insight into how a premade would play out and only prepares players to be more fit to enter into these high levels of play.

Just because these standards may not be followed by all doesn't mean the reasoning and rational behind Competitive Integrity is void -- but to be fair -- this did come from the person that argued if you couldn't cap expertise then the stat wasn't worth having...

 

[willix]

Not going to bother going point for point on any of that. This whole conversation boils down to your opinion vs that of someone else on what's 'fair.' The REAL irony is that you're the one playing with the extreme advantage, mr boomkin. I honestly don't think you have any room to talk about 'competitive integrity.'

 

[Vegemite]

Someone today in a WSG told me, that Shadowfangs are rubbish, dual BoA daggers and assass are the way to go if you're a "pro player"

 

[Karmaz]

Not going to bother going point for point on any of that. This whole conversation boils down to your opinion vs that of someone else on what's 'fair.' The REAL irony is that you're the one playing with the extreme advantage, mr boomkin. I honestly don't think you have any room to talk about 'competitive integrity.'

An opinion that is backed by logic. I have asked anyone that wishes - on the grounds of rationality - to explain their opinions.

I don't know about you, but I would consider that "being reasonable".

 

[Lejn]

An opinion that is backed by logic. I have asked anyone that wishes - on the grounds of rationality - to explain their opinions.

I don't know about you, but I would consider that "being reasonable".

You have to forgive him, his mind is blurred by the numbers in his head.

 

[willix]

You have to forgive him, his mind is blurred by the numbers in his head.

Says some random scrub.

An opinion that is backed by logic. I have asked anyone that wishes - on the grounds of rationality - to explain their opinions.

I don't know about you, but I would consider that "being reasonable".

Your particular brand of logic ignores glaring imbalances (druids, even feral, are 100% better than the best rogue, in every conceivable way), in favor of some arbitrary rules (which were created during a time when Rogues had tools which they don't have now), for a very selective environment within a small group of players. Your argument is that rogues should just play gimped because it aligns with your preferred rules, which isn't very logical at all, considering your rules haven't changed within the context of a changing environment.

Setting your particular opinion aside, not everyone participates in premades, or even wants to. Calling those people retarded and then accusing them of 'crutching' on a consumable in place of a tool their class used to have, is absolutely retarded. The irony of you calling others retarded, while you play a boomkin, is just priceless. It's comedy gold, and wouldn't expect anything less from you.

 

[Clutch]

Forums were made for open discussion on topics in which we all share a common interest in.

Although the conversation may seem like a far off tangent, I can assure you it is related and important. It might be worth your while to take a few minutes and try to understand the underlying thought and let it enlighten you.

Stop bitching about consumables... and go make your own thread! (sorry if you hadnt started this but the fact you seem so adamant derailing is fine annoyed me) clearly you didnt play back when exp and exp off wasnt invented otherwise you wouldnt really give a shit.. yes in premades its good to define rules so its equal grounds of "rated" competition... however in PuGs etc it is and always will be fine to crutch and do whatever you want. the original point of a twink was gaining items, abilities and tactics to completely annihilate people without. it wasnt for some people to basically cheap out on RBG's / Arena @ endgame and complain about everything much like it seems today.

 

[Clutch]

Its called having fun.

 

[Camouflage]

Whatever has highest min-max

 

[Sneaky]

Its called having fun.

Speed pot + Travel Form + Darkflight away from a poor rogue with no gap closers or mobility (even a swifty won't help him) is fun for him? You will want to look at both sides of an argument before making generalizations.

I have played BC, back when twinking was about gaining every single advantage you could over others, and I enjoyed it. But if you haven't noticed, the definition of twinking has changed since then. PuGs nowadays make up for 99% of the games in this bracket -- if there is a disregard for the integrity of competition by using cheap crutches, what does that say about the community and its quality of players? How do you ever expect for both sides to have fun when people like you only care what's fun for them and disregard everything else?

Rogues (mutilate or any other spec) do just fine and do not need to crutch on speed pots or other consumables. If people in general geared correctly and tried to play their class to its optimal potential (which is what premades aim for), PuGs would be a much better place. When you have a small group of people abusing consumables so they can have 'fun', it creates even more problems in a bracket that is consistently fighting extinction.

 

[willix]

PuGs nowadays make up for 99% of the games in this bracket -- if there is a disregard for the integrity of competition by using cheap crutches, what does that say about the community and its quality of players? How do you ever expect for both sides to have fun when people like you only care what's fun for them and disregard everything else?

So, it's okay to disregard the integrity of the bracket while you guys group queue and GY farm, but it's not okay for someone to use a consumable in hopes of being on equal ground with other classes? Hypocrisy much? Maybe you, Derv, and the rest of the kids on BH should all have a good hard think before you comment on 'competitive integrity.' Oh, and before you reply with some wall of text like Derv did, let me give you an idea of what each class has which allows them to easily get away from a rogue or kite it to death, where speed pots might be necessary:

1. Blink, Frost Nova, Polymorph
2. Wild Charge, Travel Form, Cat Form, Displacer Beast
3. HoJ, Speed of LIght, Long arm of the Law
4. Roll, Tiger's Lust
5. Charge w/ Juggernaut, Warbringer, Double Time
6. Conc Shot, Narrow Escape, Scatter Shot, Posthaste
7. Ghost Wolf, Thunderstorm
8. Fear, Conflagrate, Demonic Leap
9. Void Tendrils, Psychic Scream, Psyfiend

Some of these classes get one or more of these abilities at once. What do rogues get? Sap, gouge? If you haven't noticed, Nightstalker only works from stealth, and they don't get Shadowstep until level 60. You might think rogues are fine, and if we were talking about a higher level twink bracket, I would probably agree with you. But a 19 rogue is about as gimped as it gets, if you don't get focused down by people the instant you come out of stealth, then you get kited for days and have to run and hide in order to survive, if you can drop combat first.

I just don't think you really understand the reality of the situation. Speed pots are bad, but the Boots in the tunnel are okay?

Alright then...

 

[Lejn]

GY farming is a result of games not being competetive in the first place. It is not possible to graveyard farm in a competetive wsg. Why would you even bring that up?

 

[Lil Throwed]

GY farming is a result of games not being competetive in the first place. It is not possible to graveyard farm in a competetive wsg. Why would you even bring that up?

competitive*

 

[Lejn]

competitive*

Thanks mate, appreciate it.

 

[Mocha]

I feel there are stronger issues for us to work together to stop than the rare speed pots I've seen. Perhaps in the 40 games I've played this week I've seen 3 speed pots.

 

[Lejn]

I feel there are stronger issues for us to work together to stop than the rare speed pots I've seen. Perhaps in the 40 games I've played this week I've seen 3 speed pots.

You should watch Eliot more closely.

 

[Hurrx]

competitive*

i love u marry me please

 

[Sneaky]

So, it's okay to disregard the integrity of the bracket while you guys group queue and GY farm, but it's not okay for someone to use a consumable in hopes of being on equal ground with other classes? Hypocrisy much? Maybe you, Derv, and the rest of the kids on BH should all have a good hard think before you comment on 'competitive integrity.' Oh, and before you reply with some wall of text like Derv did, let me give you an idea of what each class has which allows them to easily get away from a rogue or kite it to death, where speed pots might be necessary:

1. Blink, Frost Nova, Polymorph
2. Wild Charge, Travel Form, Cat Form, Displacer Beast
3. HoJ, Speed of LIght, Long arm of the Law
4. Roll, Tiger's Lust
5. Charge w/ Juggernaut, Warbringer, Double Time
6. Conc Shot, Narrow Escape, Scatter Shot, Posthaste
7. Ghost Wolf, Thunderstorm
8. Fear, Conflagrate, Demonic Leap
9. Void Tendrils, Psychic Scream, Psyfiend

Some of these classes get one or more of these abilities at once. What do rogues get? Sap, gouge? If you haven't noticed, Nightstalker only works from stealth, and they don't get Shadowstep until level 60. You might think rogues are fine, and if we were talking about a higher level twink bracket, I would probably agree with you. But a 19 rogue is about as gimped as it gets, if you don't get focused down by people the instant you come out of stealth, then you get kited for days and have to run and hide in order to survive, if you can drop combat first.

I just don't think you really understand the reality of the situation. Speed pots are bad, but the Boots in the tunnel are okay?

Alright then...

The text in bold shows just how lost you are. And I mean really, really lost. I have always been a lonewolf that solo queues from Elune -- only recently I threw a monk on BH for arenas. GL finding someone that will tell you that I GY farm.

I have a 19 rogue and I do just fine with it. What 19s do you play? You would do good to think about the foolishness you spew in these forums.

I may not play muti spec very often, but I am one of the very active 19s and I have played rogue enough in this expansion to say they are fine without having to crutch on speed pots. What have you done?

 

[Eliot]

You should watch Eliot more closely.

Just stocked up on about 250 speed pots the other day, see you all in the gulch!

I suggest getting some speed pota ya'll!