best class total damage and total heal?

What could i expect lol...
So looking at time on said CCs,communicating with your arena/rbg partners is hard? Okay...
Chaining CCs is not some worldbreaking thing.
Especially those 2-3 CCs hunter has at level 20 while hopping around and talking with mom about your day in school.

You are making it as if other classess have no way to CC chain.
Honestly if you think that mastering hunter is some rocket science then i have bad news for you.
 
For heals i would say either Hpal or Rdruid, Holy Paladin for the high burst single target healz, but once you gief everyone in bgs HoTs as Rdruid. The heal is gonna be insane ^^
 
I´m not responsible for misinformating of people here either. You are currently totally dislusional and dismissing facts to make people look stupid. How unseemingly of you.

Skillfloor defines the amount of effort needed to play on a reasonable level on the field. Yes, i will repeat until you know what skillfloor defines. Wjhat does zero arbritary skill is even mean? A Hunter with barely any skill can play on a reasonable level, thus their skillfloor level is lowered. Exceptions excluded ofcourse. They can fire on the move, slow and disengage. Ofcourse a Hunter is easy to play to at a reasonable level because of this. Their skillcap is higher though because they change games really drastic, just like Druids. But Druids still retain a low skillfloor because they are easier to play aswell compared to something like a Warrior or a Warlock.

A class doesn't get magically more complex because you said so.

Skill is an arbitrary term. Namely, you can't numerically calculate "skill". You can look at an arena rating, but that doesn't define skill. Many factors go into achieving that rating, so the activity cannot entirely be considered an accurate measurement of skill. You can look at a K/D of a player in a battleground. But once again, that doesn't factor in all variables.

That is what I meant by arbitrary skill. Skill is difficult to define in real-world values.

The rest of your post is semantics and disagreement for disagreement's sake. I think I'm done with this. I've said my points, and you've said yours. People can define terms however they like. It doesn't harm me in the slightest.
 
Bop, sometimes you just have to throw in the towel. This may be one of those times. I have had to do it several times trying to explain mechanics/strategy to some people here. It seems as if you are talking to a wall. Nothing you say or do can please them.
Have a good day.

Sweetsidney
 
People can define terms however they like.

So you admit you make up your own terms? Seems a legitemate way to debate/discuss. I thought it was about facts and statements, not about pulling rabbits out of a top hat.

Skill is difficult to define in real-world values.

We were talking about skillfloor and not skill itself. And you were trying to compare skillfloor to a X-Axis. Way to derail the discussion. Atleast stand for your statements.

The rest of your post is semantics and disagreement for disagreement's sake.

I´m not disagreeing because i´m foolhardy, but because you are wrong. You could even Google the term ´´Skillfloor´´ to read up what that means. You were just ill prepared and said nonsense. No hard feelings, but please come back prepared when you are adequately prepared and lets talk it out. After all, you wanted to discuss the skillfloor of classes, right?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
What could i expect lol...
So looking at time on said CCs,communicating with your arena/rbg partners is hard? Okay...
Chaining CCs is not some worldbreaking thing.
Especially those 2-3 CCs hunter has at level 20 while hopping around and talking with mom about your day in school.

You are making it as if other classess have no way to CC chain.
Honestly if you think that mastering hunter is some rocket science then i have bad news for you.

Mastering a hunter isnt taht hard , i know. But when you are fighting a level 24 resto druid hastestacked you REALLY need to know when to use them!
 
ITT: Fourteen to fifteen year old players who have yet to graduate from algebra try to explain the theoretical value/connotation of what a skill floor/skill ceiling is. Bop why do you even try?
 
Oh and also just to cement my brilliance, here it is, 3 months from the last one on February;....

no, no. you explain why it's the most complex class at 20.


Okay sure. I do this pretty much once every three months when this thread crops up and it usually ends the arguments.

Here's the post again though:

SKILL CEILING is the maximum skill level at which a character can be played. In other words, at an inhuman, robot pace of play where no mistakes are made, which class will be the most complex and the hardest to master?. A low skill ceiling would be something like a warrior, where even a tunneling warrior (if geared) is only marginally less effective than a "skilled" warrior.

SKILL FLOOR is the lowest limit at which the class is still effective. In other words, if you are playing a warlock and you are really, really bad (you don't know how to position, you don't fear, you don't keep DoTs up) you are going to have an incredibly bad time (read:useless). On the other hand, a hunter, who is just as bad as our warlock friend, will still be okay, and might even be effective! That means the warlock has a low floor and the hunter has a high floor.

Illustrated in picture terms:

[....................SKILLED....................][AVERAGE][........................................NOOB]
[...........................Hunter's Effectiveness Bar.......................... ]
[.............Warlock's Effectiveness Bar................ ]

As you can see, the warlock's "floor" or point at which he or she is effective skillwise is clearly higher than the hunter. So now we know what those mean.

Why does that mean a hunter is more complex at 20 than a warlock or a mage?

Let's think about it analytically. Name the RESTO shamans off the top of your head that are really good. Maybe you thought of Riptides, Mindy or Phrontistery? What about those shamans impresses you? Take away their gear, take away their ability to FC - focus only on the shaman abilities. What makes them good? It can't just be healing - anyone can predict damage and pre-cast a heal. It can't be positioning and the like; that has nothing to do with the class, it has to do with the player. Here is the question: What about THAT CLASS makes them so much better than other shamans?

Here I think you can figure out at least a little bit about where I am going. What makes a good shaman? I would argue that those three shamans, or a good arena player like myself, Wizkidone, Veinte etc. are going to be more or less at the same level of shaman play. They might have more experience playing 20 shaman and so they might be more natural at it, but overall, you won't be able to tell the difference. I think this has been proven quite often with many, many "good" players rerolling to just about any class at 20 and being one of the elites no matter what they roll. A good shaman knows not just to shear, but when to shear. A good shaman purges, but knows what to purge (the 24 priest is rebuffing Fort? STOP purging it off of everyone and don't go OOM!). You get my point. There's not a lot.

That's the easy way to think about it. Think about the "good" hunters. Lil, humbly submitted, myself, Wizkidtwo, Felix etc. All the hunters that make you miserable. There's 5-10 hunter's a game in WSG. Why do you remember these hunters? Here I think there's a lot more that you can say. "I was killing his pet but he kept dismissing it." "That god-damned 5% crit that he refreshes on everyone." "Scatter, Moth Silence, absurd damage, kiting, keeps SS or Hunter's Mark on me so I can't stealth" etc. There's a lot more. That's because a hunter has a high SKILL CEILING AND a high SKILL FLOOR. That means a shitty hunter can be decent in WSG but it also means that there is a HUGE difference between an average hunter and a god-tier hunter. If you look at my list: Hunter > Mage > Priest > Ele Shaman, you'll notice that the same element is true for most. The difference between poor and average is high, the difference between average and good is higher still, but the difference between REALLY good and good is far, far more obvious and stark.

That's what being complex means. That's why a hunter is complex and a warlock is not. Any good player can play a warlock, focus fear, know DR"s and DoT everything. What's hard about that? Nothing. On the other hand, I guarantee not every good player can play a hunter. I've already seen it happen over and over and over again. Yeah, any good player can beat the garbage players in the gulch. They won't beat a good hunter in arena or a duel.[

Examples: Mialu couldn't play a hunter. He's a Gladiator mage. Was he better than most? Sure. He would be the first to tell you he couldn't do it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[...]Any good player can play a warlock,[...]On the other hand, I guarantee not every good player can play a hunter. [...]

You really believe that do you?
Thread looks like a cat who bites the own tail..discussion will have no end.
 
[MENTION=18826]Bop[/MENTION] [MENTION=20635]Upswag[/MENTION] please stop trying to make your argument.. Notice the people that are arguing. Hunters are (still) easily the hardest class to master however with everything being taken away, that may change in WoD. All 3 of us (including other lurkers I'm sure) knows this so don't waste your breathe arguing with the people who let their hate for the class blanket the facts
 
You really believe that do you?
Thread looks like a cat who bites the own tail..discussion will have no end.

I mean, honestly, I'm not even going to attempt to argue with you. You're one of those people I lump in with inoobupro and Cripz - sure, I could try to argue with you but you're just going to pull me down to your level and beat me with your stupidity until I have no brain cells left.
 
[MENTION=18826]Bop[/MENTION] [MENTION=20635]Upswag[/MENTION] please stop trying to make your argument.. Notice the people that are arguing. Hunters are (still) easily the hardest class to master however with everything being taken away, that may change in WoD. All 3 of us (including other lurkers I'm sure) knows this so don't waste your breathe arguing with the people who let their hate for the class blanket the facts

I have to ask.

Would you prefer the old 5.0 hunter back? The master of CC/nodamagewhatsoever class?

I'm honestly curious. You're still one of the best hunters in the forum.
 
I have to ask.

Would you prefer the old 5.0 hunter back? The master of CC/nodamagewhatsoever class?

I'm honestly curious. You're still one of the best hunters in the forum.

I actually have two minds on this (I know this is directed at Lil, but I want a shot at the easy lob!): yes, I'd prefer hunter's be master of CC with minimum damage just so it would really obvious why hunter has the highest skillcap etc. (and people who are bad wouldn't have excuses for dying to hunters because they don't LoS, range, heal themselves, offheal etc.).

With that being said, I'm rapidly finding the only way I can have fun or good games is for me to play hunter and flat out carry my team to a win. If I play nearly any other class it's usually me getting pissed off because I will never comprehend how nine humans (rest of my team for those slow on the uptake) can take a shit on millenia of evolution and play worse than I imagine sub-humans* would have.

*Sub-humans learned to not run into predators that would kill you every time so I'd imagine at the least they'd understand not to run straight a hunter after you died the previous eleventeen times you tried.

And finally, while I'm on this why is this bracket so bad tangent, when I queue five deep, I generally only lose to the 6+ 24s teams or the 8 hunters/rogues of which 4 are 24 variety. That's because good players can overcome bad hunters. It's the same reason that people complain in the 1800 bracket about KFC and then have no idea why 2600 wizards farm the far, far superior KFC teams. Hint: If you're bad, it doesn't really matter what class is OP. You're. Bad.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I actually have two minds on this (I know this is directed at Lil, but I want a shot at the easy lob!): yes, I'd prefer hunter's be master of CC with minimum damage just so it would really obvious why hunter has the highest skillcap etc. (and people who are bad wouldn't have excuses for dying to hunters because they don't LoS, range, heal themselves, offheal etc.).

With that being said, I'm rapidly finding the only way I can have fun or good games is for me to play hunter and flat out carry my team to a win. If I play nearly any other class it's usually me getting pissed off because I will never comprehend how nine humans (rest of my team for those slow on the uptake) can take a shit on millenia of evolution and play worse than I imagine sub-humans* would have.

*Sub-humans learned to not run into predators that would kill you every time so I'd imagine at the least they'd understand not to run straight a hunter after you died the previous eleventeen times you tried.

I too do prefer the minimal damage/maximum cc hunter. It was fun to look like a Marshall of the bracket, controlling and dictating fights left and right.

Also, i could play my favourite class and not feel cheap.
 
I have to ask.

Would you prefer the old 5.0 hunter back? The master of CC/nodamagewhatsoever class?

I'm honestly curious. You're still one of the best hunters in the forum.

5.2 hunter. 5.3 healing. 5.3 scaling. 5.0 chants would bring the best bgs imo.

If it wasn't the 5.2 hunter then the 5.1 version.. Whichever one still had intimidation but didn't have the buff in aspect. Dmg was still decent however that patch had the biggest gap between good/avg hunters imo
 
5.2 hunter. 5.3 healing. 5.3 scaling. 5.0 chants would bring the best bgs imo.

If it wasn't the 5.2 hunter then the 5.1 version.. Whichever one still had intimidation but didn't have the buff in aspect. Dmg was still decent however that patch had the biggest gap between good/avg hunters imo

5.0 and 5.1 had intim I think it got lost in 5.2.
 
I mean, honestly, I'm not even going to attempt to argue with you. You're one of those people I lump in with inoobupro and Cripz - sure, I could try to argue with you but you're just going to pull me down to your level and beat me with your stupidity until I have no brain cells left.
Lame argument and clearly overused.
I asked a simple question and have a different opinion. If thats reason enough to insult me then fine. I dont care.
I just dont see the imbalance between wl and hunter skillwise neither do i see a reason to offend wl-players with the statement of yours I quoted.
 
This thread has caused me to lose some faith in humanity, yes.

Trolls going to troll, I suppose.

Anyways, good job explaining it, Upswag :)

Edit: I have this problem with trying to logically demonstrate to people the information I have to offer. When people scoff or project their predisposition at those ideas, I continue to try to show them logic behind my position.

I'm easy trollbait because of it, but honestly I'd rather be trolled 1000 times and help one person achieve a new perspective than become elitist and refuse to offer a real opinion to anyone.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'd rather be trolled 1000 times and help one person achieve a new perspective than become elitist and refuse to offer a real opinion to anyone.

That could be why you are MVP.

/salute
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top