Arena Ranked / New Website Arena Skirmish Ladder for Twinks

erenburgh said:
I originally commented that we will introduce a system of penalties for classes, so that there would not be a table formed of OP characters
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you should honestly just let the ratings be the ratings. I appreciate what you're trying to do, I really do, but we all know hunters are broken and priests are insanely powerful. If you just keep playing whack-a-mole with whatever class starts to creep to the top, you're going to end up with a very convoluted system.

People are going to gravitate to whatever gives them an edge and you're going to spend a lot of time chasing your tail trying to shape the meta by adjusting scores.

Just let it ride, man. Nobody is losing sleep over high ranked hunters. Its just the way of the bracket.
 
My personal opinion here for what it's worth:

We don't have the sample size for skirmishes on this patch to determine what really is *too* good. Even if we had a massive sample size, it would still be a difficult task to figure out what the difference between "strong spec" and "penalty-worthy" is. Bottom line = there shouldn't be penalties for playing classes (not specs - since we have to penalize the entire class for the sins of 1 spec).

On the topic of Hunters --- I think Hunters can be banned / penalized without hypocrisy here. Hunters are known to be incredibly overpowering. They stand as clear, clear outliers to the data in ways that even SD Arms with +100sader didn't. Bringing more utility than a Shadow Priest; more DPS output than an Arcane mage. We knew Hunters would be problematic *before the ladder was even announced* - no further data was needed. Hunters needed to be penalized in some way, because they are so clearly an outlier from the beginning that the ladder would become pointless if they were not.

For newer players --- they are likely to start playing either (1) their favorite class; or (2) the most popular class on the ladder. This is whackamole. The most popular class on the ladder will *always exist no matter how many classes you penalize*. I doubt there are any players considering playing twink skirmishes who aren't also aware that there is going to be some imbalance in class power. I don't think seeing 5 priests in the top 10 is going to dissuade anyone from joining the ladder. Penalizing popular classes won't prevent newer players from playing the new most popular one.

For skirmish veterans --- First, you are effectively deleting dozens and dozens of games played for some priest players without warning. Class imbalance aside - this is problematic. This is something that could dissuade some of those 100+ skirmish game priest players from playing a new class. God knows they won't want to keep playing their priests if they care about ladder standing. Which leads to my second point: an MMR penalty is a HUGE deal. It's not just a loss of rating. It forces that player to get the same low amount of MMR per win and risk the same high mmr loss when they lose as if they were still their *actual* skirmish rating. A 2000 rated player who is penalized to 1800 still has that 2k rating in actual skirmish queues. There isn't a reason to seriously climb ladder with a penalized class.

Just some thoughts. Ultimately, this is your ladder and obviously you can do with it what you will. I think what those of us replying are trying to convey is a passion for getting this type of project to work and a desire for it to succeed. We wish only the best.
 
I think the good specs will always be dominant so penalty doesn't make much sense for classes other than hunter.
There's no need to explain how broken hunters are ofc but there are other meta classes that work very well and will be played more than something like a feral druid for example. I think that's normal. After all, no one wants to play a weak spec especially at lvl 20 where "weak" means not having access to core abilities.

I like the idea of this being simply a ladder where we can see who has the highest skirmish rating. After all most people are farming levelers for the most part.
 
Bop summed it up. All I would add:

You made a great tool. I have been playing arenas with the intention of downloading the client and using it. New players will respond positively to the tool that you built because it is good. They won’t become dismayed by class concentration at the top because they already know the bracket they play in. They don’t play to see every flower equally represented in the vase.

I want to play and beat those players at the top, not have the numbers beat them for me.
 
erenburgh said:
Okay guys, I hear you. You're suggesting we keep the fine for hunters only and not give it to anyone else, right?
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Yes because there will always be meta classes(mage, warr. pal, priest) so it's fine if some are more played. Hunters are the only ones who we can't play against.
 
erenburgh said:
If the first 2 pages are only taken up by Spriests, then what is the point of giving a penalty to hunters?
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Acknowledging that hunters are so busted its pointless to rank them, while allowing for the fact that some classes will simply just be better than others.

Its ok (at least to my mind) that some classes reign supreme. Especially in skirms and in twinking. It's just the way its always been. We can acknowledge that SPriest is really hyper strong in 2s and 3s while still allowing for counter play and counter comps.

Hunters, on the other hand, do not.

Im very excited to get in on this when my time frees up in a couple weeks. Thank you for building the tool and for being responsive to the community!
 
erenburgh said:
Done. Removed the penalty from Spriest
[doublepost=1647108434,1647107449][/doublepost]Now the question. If the first 2 pages are only taken up by Spriests, then what is the point of giving a penalty to hunters?
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I think there's a little bit of nuance there which complicates what would otherwise be an easy rule. The easy rule would be: no penalties, let all classes duke it out.

I view it like this --- a class with very high representation at high ranks can either be overpowered or a top tier class. Where's the distinction? Let's make it really absurd for a second.

If level 20s could queue up with an actual level 60 character with endgame gear, I think we would all agree the ladder would be kind of pointless. There's no gauge for how good the level 20 player is. He's irrelevant to the team because his partner is not something the bracket can handle.

It's an extreme example and hunters aren't equal to a level 60. But the logic behind the analogy is my point - some things are worth banning from the ladder for the sake of competitive integrity.

But a top tier class can be very strong without ruining competition. It can have counterplay and even counter-classes.

Hunters are more like the level 60 class (in the analogy) - Spriests are more like the top tier class.
 
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erenburgh said:
View attachment 20689

«Go arena, I created.»

Now I can safely say this phrase because in fact, I created a project - a site-ladder with a rating from skirmishes for twinks (and not just for the 20th bracket)!

https://arena-ranked.fun/

I know the idea isn't new, but the common man can't understand how difficult it was to implement at this point in time, so:

A moment of informative content. The old ladders on Trialand and Xpoff were based on pulling player rating data directly from Blizzard's Web API (from the open web code), which contained information about the character, rating, stats, etc.

But with the release of Shadowlands, the Web API changed and the line of code about the rating from the skirmishes was gone (either removed or hidden on purpose), which made the past ladders no longer work.

Coming to bracket, I thought about reviving the idea, as I'm interested in the arena aspect by 20, both tournaments and regular games. But no one plays on skirmishers except lvlers, and there is no open ranking - as a result, there is not much motivation.

I found out that there are addons that pull rankings from skirmishes inside the game and display it there as well, so I thought, what if we could pull that data onto the site?

And we did it.

We created a client, and it acts as a bridge between the addon (which pulls the rating from the game) and the website (which receives data from the client).

A chain of connections for clarity:

Game API - Addon - Client - Site. Doesn't seem too complicated.

Answering all the nihilists beforehand - this rating is REAL.

It really is in the game, because the arena itself can not exist without an internal MMR system (system of selection of players), but Blizzard hides it because the skirmishes are designed solely to play without rating. With that, I think it should be clear.

I repeat, this is the real rating, we do not draw it and do not calculate ourselves.

Well, next, I'll tell you about the project:

View attachment 20688

We have one page where all the players are concentrated.

Briefly:

1. To get into the tender, you need to download the client by clicking on [Big red button] and then install it.

2. The client itself will put the addon Arena Ranked in a folder with the game (you will need to specify), then run the client (you can after installation) and go into the game.

3. Having played in the arena and got the first rating need to exit the game (close WoW), the client will automatically send data to the site

4. Finished! You are in the Ladder. Your character will automatically have a link to Armory and a portrait of your character.

5. Play to update your rating and position on the board.

The site will have a detailed guide with screenshots on the "Join to ladder" page.

The functionality of the site is packed with interesting features, which were not on the previous ladders.

Awards. There is a system of unique rewards not related to the achievements of the game. They will be planned me and given out for the overall table achievements, and for some kind of unique moments, such as an arena-event, or something like that (while thinking over what exactly to give "awards").

2) B&C Tournament Flags. There will be flags for participation and victory in the tournament Bread & Circuses, they will be displayed on the card of your character allocating from the general mass.

3. B&C Tournament Fund. Together with the tournament organizers, we have created a general fund into which anyone can make a donation to further distribute the amount for the winners. This opens up new opportunities to sponsor the tournament and increase the sums for games.

4. Unique portrait frames. A system of frames that act as cosmetics for support on Patreon. (Wasn't originally planning to introduce advertising, donations, etc., but given that the project cost a certain amount from my personal pocket, I think comments are unnecessary). Well, in general, I think this model is interesting enough, you want to support the project - here's your makeup, stands out from the general table, and sets the character. Frames will be a few kinds for different types of support.

Just give the opportunity to turn off ads on the site (by the way, it is not intrusive and neatly built into the structure).

5. 20, 30, 40, 50 lvl. Made a few formats of boards, which will be entered players of different levels, it will allow all kinds of twinks as well participate in the games (on separate tables from each other) on the stop exp and revive activity in other brackets.

Yes yes, at 20 will also be able to play on the stop exp, if there is an activity from you, but about that a little later in the text.

6. Convenient filtered search by class and faction. Well, here are no comments.

7. Adaptive mobile version. You can check the rating from the minibus or the restroom. How do you like it?

8. FINES FOR CLASSES. Now for the hunters. Since at the start of the project I conducted a mini-study and a survey, the topic of the presence of OP classes in the ladder. "There will be some hunts, not interesting, here are the warriors with Crusader" is the gold standard.

Since the site is developed by us, we have access to edit the data obtained from the client, which are pulled from the addon.

How will this work? Let's imagine that a hunter would like to participate in the ladder. In the game in fact, his rating will be 2400. In the code, we will sew that the data are obtained from all specializations hunter final figure will be 20% less from the original. Total we will get approximately 1800-1900 rating.

This should create pressure on the players who think that only because of the OP class they can sit at the top. Someone will say "But then the hunter will just need to play more in the arena, it will be an additional motivation to play even more". No. The system will be progressive. First of all, most likely the first month we will not give access to ladder hunters, until the first base of players. Secondly, if we have too many hunters even with penalty, we'll increase penalty percentage to 25+%, which will create a disadvantage, because with a rating of 2800 in fact they will be the same 2000.

Paladins (Retri) and Warriors will also be under penalty until we change Crusader/ The rest of the classes will be regulated after player feedback, feedback can be left on the Arena Ranked channel in Discord.

And now regarding the arena community and "But there are only Lvlers!!!": yes, there are indeed Lvlers, but they are super few. It seems like there are a lot of them, only because the general mass of TWINKS do NOT go to ARENA. And why is that? Because Lvlers do, and why? Because there is no motivation for twinks to go to arenas, and because Lvlers.

Vicious circle.

And imagine if the stable skirmishes will play 50 twinks. What is 5 lvlers on this amount? And imagine if 100?

And if 200+? There are even more people on the breket. And arenas can play alliance against alliance and horde against horde.

When Twinks will start playing arenas - lvlers will just be the masses, reduce them to the equivalent of undressed pve players on the cap, or just people who can not play.

Most importantly, if the Twinks will start playing - to form a proper MMR system, and swinging above 1500 will not throw, because any lvler came into the arena has a standard 1500 MMR. Above 1800 lvlers simply will not be.

As a rule, lvlers in general do not play skirmishes forever, and even if some lvler will go to games, he because of the number of twinks in the roster simply will not go above this figure (1500). And over time lvlers can just stop going to skirmishes, knowing that this is the "zone twinks" where they go overgeared people and win anyway

Also, an important factor: if there are enough players playing arenas we can create games on stop exp and it will be a specific "twinks zone" where there will be pure search for those who at the moment is sitting with game time. This opens a new access to the game, even if you have a subscription.

And all this can create YOU. I gave you motivation, gave you a handy tool to track yourself, a friend, a foe, that fucker with Crusader over there in the rankings table, gave you achieves and portraits.

All you have to do is play.

If you start playing arenas, each of you will start playing arenas - it is you who will create a new (or alternate) expirience of the game on 20th and that player base that will resurrect the arena tab. This can create interest in the game for those who have had time to get tired and get away from the monotony, for those who wanted arena development on tweens, for those who just care. In the future, you can have qualifying games for B&C from the rankings in the ladder.

What is the advantage of playing skirmishes arena? First, there is no division into 2x2 and 3x3. If he wants to play hil to him will just throw a bunch of two twinks dd, it's cool, and do not have to worry about the fact that in 2c will be the team hil / dd. There will only be heels in 3s, but the rating is one.

Ladder will start on March 2nd, with the start of the new arena season. Everyone will be playing from ZERO because the rating will be reset.

Tell your acquaintances, co-workers, family, friends, and see you at Arena Ranked 02.03.2022!
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can u make one for bgs too
 
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