80-89 80 Best in slot (PvE and PvP)
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Falkor
Twink Info Legend
^^^
OP
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Splosion
Mr Theory
Doesn't mean I'm wrong. Individual playstyles aren't exactly a decent enough reason. Divine protection being on a 1min cd also doesn't compare it to shield wall, which provides a vastly more powerful damage reduction cooldown. Given that warriors have spell reflect and shield block, ret is actually weaker in terms of survivability cooldowns, if you exclude bubble (gone within a gcd vs a decent priest), and WoG (10sec cooldown, and even if it heals for 100% of your health you can still die before the next one is up).
That set is just gemmed a little agressively for resilience. It is by no means a resilience set, far from it.
That set is just gemmed a little agressively for resilience. It is by no means a resilience set, far from it.
Falkor
Twink Info Legend
vastly? shield wall has 20% more dmg reduction for 2 extra sec, but its on a 5x longer cooldown oh and you need to stance dance + put on a sword and board. its more comparable to DS anyways, i never compared DP to SW
shield block is more like DP except for the fact block is only ok against melee, and excluding attacks from behind (or when stunned). would rather have divine protection.
reflect is nice but only works on casters, casters who dont notice it. also requiring the dancing and the shielding
pallys also have HL, FoL, DL in addition to WoG. + two stuns and an interrupt for those priests that are even good enough to mass dispel, or anyone else
not to mention how easy warriors are to kite whereas pallys can dispel snares or just use hof
shield block is more like DP except for the fact block is only ok against melee, and excluding attacks from behind (or when stunned). would rather have divine protection.
reflect is nice but only works on casters, casters who dont notice it. also requiring the dancing and the shielding
pallys also have HL, FoL, DL in addition to WoG. + two stuns and an interrupt for those priests that are even good enough to mass dispel, or anyone else
not to mention how easy warriors are to kite whereas pallys can dispel snares or just use hof
OP
OP
Splosion
Mr Theory
Several things. Rets glyph divine protection mostly, as casters are more deadly than melee. Because of this, ret only has their (dispellable) CCs to survive melee. You're not easily going to get a flash of light off (the only heal worth casting, and given the burst in this bracket, you can't fake because you'll die) against a melee, and casters already do extremely high amounts of damage.
I don't see how shield block is like DP, at all. Reflect can be used well, if you don't just use it when you get switched to. Reflect should be used like an interrupt, at the last possible second. Dancing also isn't hard in arms, as you should be speccing stance mastery (stances are off-gcd, so it doesn't affect your damage, not that it matters if you're going defensive)
As for kiting, dispel costs 14% of your mana as ret. This means you can cast no more than seven before ooming, bump that up to around 10 with JotB regen. Freedom again is dispellable, so yes, rets are as easily kited as warriors.
But that wasn't the argument at all. Both rets and warriors need a large amount of resilience, and as both don't deal a lot of damage either (outside of cooldowns/uptime), you don't want to go glass cannon, when you're not globalling things.
As I said before you took my passing comparison of rets and warriors and turned it onto what you just said, playstyles aren't a good enough reason to change a BiS set. You may customise the gems, but overall you will need what gear pieces I have provided. It has 36% damage reduction, and that is by no means a resilience set, not in the slightest.
I don't see how shield block is like DP, at all. Reflect can be used well, if you don't just use it when you get switched to. Reflect should be used like an interrupt, at the last possible second. Dancing also isn't hard in arms, as you should be speccing stance mastery (stances are off-gcd, so it doesn't affect your damage, not that it matters if you're going defensive)
As for kiting, dispel costs 14% of your mana as ret. This means you can cast no more than seven before ooming, bump that up to around 10 with JotB regen. Freedom again is dispellable, so yes, rets are as easily kited as warriors.
But that wasn't the argument at all. Both rets and warriors need a large amount of resilience, and as both don't deal a lot of damage either (outside of cooldowns/uptime), you don't want to go glass cannon, when you're not globalling things.
As I said before you took my passing comparison of rets and warriors and turned it onto what you just said, playstyles aren't a good enough reason to change a BiS set. You may customise the gems, but overall you will need what gear pieces I have provided. It has 36% damage reduction, and that is by no means a resilience set, not in the slightest.
Falkor
Twink Info Legend
most casters are more deadly than most melee, true. but i prefer 20% all dmg sources vs 40 for only magic. i would only use glyph for pve, or if you enter a bg and see all casters, so the rest is generalizing. in grp pvp situations you can pretty easily get other heals than fol off, especially the 300% hl after you gib someone. not that many people even bother to interrupt at this lvl, its hilarious
CD mostly. better comparison than 5min SW and DP as you were alluding to
yes you should have tactical mastery, and dancing isnt hard. but there are times when rage can be an issue even as arms
i get 10 with out replen or buffs. you can do as many as you need in pvp no problem given the regen and buffs. and not every class/spec can - or even pay enough attention - to dispell, so yes, pallys are harder to kite
but thats the thing...you dont need the pieces you provided. its just another set imo, saying bis infront of it is as much your assertion of a playstyle as mine to forgo so much resil. if both are viable then how is one more bis than another
OP
OP
Splosion
Mr Theory
Alright, if you won't give up about what I put up as a PvP BiS (Best in slot usually means such, so provide your own or stop the comments entirely)
Best in Slot for PvP is more fluid than PvE, I'll give you that. However, given the burstiness of this bracket, I can't see how my set is far wrong. Playstyle isn't something that comes to comment here, unless you're happy running with pve gear, in which case why even post here (Oh wait, you're just after +posts I suppose, except you have to have a reason for it, and half-reasonable arguments make the cut I guess).
In bgs: yes, people suck at interrupting. In Arena: no, they don't. At least not at ratings that matter anyway.
Pillar of Frost is on a 1 minute CD. Are you going to compare that to DP? Because that's not a smart way to do it.
Since when does rage being an issue matter if you're an arms warrior who's going defensive? Nothing you need to do to go defensive costs rage.
Given that it takes a gcd to dispel, if you're trying to nuke something when another class is spamming slows/roots on you, you're not going to catch your target, no matter how many times you dispel. You will end up ooming eventually, especially if its a rogue peeling (although at 80, you'd be dead already)
There's a difference between "Viable" and "BiS". Considering that you've yet to offer a set (Like i said earlier in this post), I don't see how you're contributing here at all, besides getting me riled up by picking shit apart. This is 80, not 85, rets and arms warriors need all the resilience they can get, and I've just presented a set wth 1175 resilience. It's not the most you can get as retri (whilst using all useful pieces), but it's by no means the least either. It also allows swapping to frost resist pieces without dropping the PvP 4set as well.
Best in Slot for PvP is more fluid than PvE, I'll give you that. However, given the burstiness of this bracket, I can't see how my set is far wrong. Playstyle isn't something that comes to comment here, unless you're happy running with pve gear, in which case why even post here (Oh wait, you're just after +posts I suppose, except you have to have a reason for it, and half-reasonable arguments make the cut I guess).
Falkor
Twink Info Legend
no thats not the only qualifier. and that wasnt my point even, you were the only who tried to compare DP, at a 1min CD, to shield wall - and called SW the vastly superior CD...well, duh, it should be better at 5x the cooldown (cept its not thaaaat vast even when it only lasts 2 extra sec 20% more mit. but requires extra steps ala dance + swap macro, staying w/S&B and 5xCD vs just hitting dp). to recap: i originally just said DP was a good CD. then you said DP was crap compared to SW. then i just said the 1min CDs (DP and shield block) were more comparable to eachother, as were DS and SW. i didnt say just b/c DP is a 1min CD it is suddently comparable to every 1min CD in the game.
disarm, reflect, shield block all cost rage. wall doesnt, but thats about it..so idk what you mean there. n yea you have 25 if you have tact. mastery (which you should as arms pvp), but if youre starved after that or even before then yea...
pretty much only ones that'll spam are rogues w/crip and fdks, in which case hof. for hunters and others cleansing the snares as they come wont oom you and will allow you to catch up. but even assuming you were right that doesnt make pallys as, or more, kitable than warriors who lack both cleanse (and its removal property as ret) or hof
not really for pvp, which you ackowledged after you said this ("fluid"). if people do fine in pvp w/o 36% resil (which is pretty low anyways, youre still going to get gib'd by the usual suspect classes all the same, but wont have as much burst) then how is yours the definitive BiS
take any you want. full pve with cata gear works just fine.
"I don't see how you're contributing here at all"
by challenging you. just because youre maintaing the list doesnt mean every chardev you put out is actually BiS. if nobody "picks ur shit apart" then whats the point, why should your every word be taken as gospel?
&&yes im clearly just after +post....i only have the most on this site, so i just come here to troll you and get more, yup.
ps "It also allows swapping to frost resist pieces without dropping the PvP 4set as well."
tried this, nowhere near as effective as when holy. fdk and mages still hurt you while dmg output becomes almost laughable with full pvp + the frr gear
Kayersup
Legend
Falkor, are you actually saying that you need Tactical Mastery as a warrior in PvP? I've read everything written by the two of you but I don't really care about the ret discussion - All I'm interested in is if you actually believe that you need Tactical Mastery to pvp as a warrior.
OP
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Splosion
Mr Theory
When comparing CDs, you rarely use the cooldown, it's more what it does. My example is a "case in point". Compare DP to Ams if you want, or IBF to shield wall (IBF is worse, but a longer cd, how do you place that one?), or heck, shield wall to guardian of ancient kings...oh wait.
I think kayer has to have words.
Hunters can spam concussion + traps, frost can spam all of their slows/novas (which again, take at least 1gcd to remove, which means they're moving faster than you,..if they haven't killed you already) and dispel, shadow can do similar, with greater effect. Rets are just as kitable as they ever were. Good warriors will get more uptime than good rets, just because of the class disparity (warriors work best with healers anyway, see dispelcleave)
Unfortunately, you have to STACK resilience til your eyes bleed to get around 50% (which is what some of the top rets do at 85), and resilience gets better the more you have. As for fluidity, sure, but keep in mind that ret gets tunneled, and needs the DR to survive. If anything, more resilience is better, not less. Getting Gibbed has nothing to do with it, you're still dying faster with less resilience, and ret doesn't get a lot of uptime anyway.
Go ahead and do that, I'll see you in the 1500 bracket.
I never said that what I post is BiS. Unfortunately, the only people who challenge me go off on silly tangents about rets vs warriors. Come up with some better reason than "I've found PvE gear works fine", and I'll accept that what I posted is in fact, not BiS. Math and decent reasons are better than personal playstyle. The only time PvP gearing is even relevent is in the highest of ratings, which is exactly what my sets are for.
It certainly seems like it, as you don't drop anything, ever.
Usually, wearing full frost resistance is only usually worth it if you queue into double frost mage. Then, your damage becomes irrelevent, because as long as you're removing their burst damage, you will win eventually. A single frost mage isn't usually enough to warrant more than 1-2 frost resistance pieces (+ aura, naturally). You wouldn't gem pure resilience in the gear anyway, as the resistance is a substitute for resilience.
Falkor
Twink Info Legend
sort of a trick question by the way you posed it. do you need it?....well idk, do you need several warrior talents? maybe, maybe not depending on which ones. however i think theres no reason to not get at least 1 pt in tact. mastery
conccusiVe shot has a cooldown, so no technically they cant spam it. you can remove it every 5sec and for traps you can HoF. frost mages can spam, but then it also leaves them super vulnerable to your teammates, and you can always do HoF to force a spellsteal (or chuckle if they're not smart enough to). basically the same for shadow. rets may be kitable as they ever were (well maybe not ever..they havent always been able to get out of snares/roots with just cleanse iirc), but that wasnt what we were talking about...we were comparing pally to warrior. and solo, so now youre not only changing the entire argument but also tossing in healers.
oh the harsh barbs. lul was at 2,1 (ret/rdruid and alternatively hpal/feral) and going up when i took a break from playing...not that youd see me anyways due to being in some stinky eu place. but if this is your arena set maybe you should specify since all pvp is not arena, but all arena is pvp.
you literally posted "retribution pvp BiS". dont by a hypocrite, it doesnt suit you.
youre the one who turned it into a huge tangent. all i just said rets can play just fine with far less resil and said were comprable to warriors but can also get away with a bit less due to CDs such as DP. then you got all riled up, so i had to answer back.
math and decent reasons? you havent posted a lick of math on your set, you just posted it, claimed it was bis, and added it to the Op. and your reasons are the same as mine, playstyle. you feel that 36% resil keeps you alive muuuch longer than ~0, but does it? ive used resil sets but i find them lacking in punch and keeping me alive no longer than being without, thats my decent reason. ill leave the mathmatics up to you
you keep responding.....!
im not just gonna stop posting, especially when you actually try to goad me into it with ur "cy@1500m8" and the like. i like posting and engaging in conversations, esp with you b/c meaningful things usually come of it. so why would i just stop?
OP
OP
Splosion
Mr Theory
I'll leave kayer to answer this, I was guessing.
Right, and you're totally not vulnerable to their team-mates whilst you're on gcd or anything? Forcing spellsteals isn't anything tricky, mages usually keep everything off a nuke target, at relevent ratings. As for rets being as kitable as ever, it's gotten slightly better, but not much. I don't care about the argument between rets and warriors, you brought it up, deciding to take a comment I made and run with it. Both classes require high resilience to even be competetive.
As I said, it's what matters, rather than irrelevent content. Everyone can run around bgs killing people in pvp gear. hell, it's even possible in 2s. Unfortunately 3s doesn't get queues, but that's literally only where it matters. Like the mention of how bad EU is, although we have a larger number of world first pvpers in respective classes than US does. However, it's all sticks and stones. At 80, the only PvP that matters is arena. As for rating, everyone can see mine, I don't see your char anywhere (usually is a good indicator), but you'll probably go defensive, as it's only half relevent anyway.
I posted it because I believe it IS. You just told me PvE gear was better, which doesn't make any sense. If you want me to be a hypocrite, you just drove me to it, sorry.
Yes I posted it, and I added it to the OP, and still haven't seen anything from you to prove it isn't BiS, I'll post my counter math then, because until then the set with resilience usually looks better for PvP, just saying. But why, might I ask, did you try and tell me one of my sets was wrong, when apparently the rest aren't? (You've yet to say anything about them, so apparently I get everything right and one wrong, according to this argument)
Fine. If you want it that way, so be it. This thread stops here. I CBA to even spend my time making BiS sets because you never believe they are BiS (as you prefer to play differently, which is _half_ of what I'm saying is irrelevent). 36% resilience will keep you alive 36% longer with 0 healing. That's essentially like having a permanent last stand (and then some). it only gets better with healing. I've STILL not seen your set, which given that you're arguing like hell to say that PvE gear is better, I'd like to see. PvP gear is made for PvP, otherwise we'd have a vanilla situation.
I'm not retarded. I mentioned the 1500 bracket because it was irrelevent pvp content. Sure, it may have been directed at you, but forgive me for it, when you posted literally zero experience (and yet, you have the same ratings as me, with comps that suit the class/spec better)
All you've done is goad me into discontinuing this thread. So what has it accomplished? I can argue all damn day and you'll still tell me PvE is better for PvP. So I concede it. Have fun increasing your post count, because I've done arguments like this before, and I just don't care for it anymore. If you wanted this result, congratulations. Call me a quitter if you want, but I left MMO-Champion to avoid this kind of stupid argument from people who will never back down, no matter how much I throw at them.
As I've said, we're done here, Good day.
Falkor
Twink Info Legend
far less vulnerable on a 1sec gcd than a frost mage that just blew every single defensive snare/root for CC/FoF
k so arena again vs just strictly pvp. name ur profile as such if thats ur angle
so 1) you admit its gotten better. BOOM 2) i already stated i said pallys were comparable to warriors tho they should require a bit less resil due to CDs, so you commented and ran with it BOOM and 3) high resil where, arena? maybe, BGs, not really so BOOM
so name ur set arena 3v3 (5v5?) BiS, not PvP BiS then
1) you made fun of me for 1,5 lol but
a) the fuck is a world first pvper. doesnt every battlegroup have the same amount of top .o1% pvpers? and 2) it is all sticks and stones, even tho you started it...but i wasnt making fun of pvp skills i was making fun of dirty countries
3) at 80 the only thing that matters is comp, not arena.
oh wait youre calling me out. well i wont get defensive, never have, go look up Flacid. and check under achievements, then arena, and you'll see i hit 2k, but havent been 2,2 yet. so you can either believe i hit 2,1+ or not, but at worst i was 2k as a pretty sub par comp (in worse gear than i am now on armory), so w/e maam
oh you believe it is. that sounds like math and reason, not just personal opinion. hypocrite
stop being such a fucking cry baby bitch. first off you are in charge of the thread, not the one in charge of creating every chardev. so dont act like they're the same thing...you can still maintain the thread and quit making chardevs, if thats what you want. and FFS, the one time i say something its "you never believe they are BiS"...SHUT UP. christs sake. you said its bis, i disagree. you bitch. i bitch. you dont do math, you ask i do math. i refuse. so if youre not going to definitively prove its bis (arena at least) just keep it, i was just making a pointed comment, i didnt mean to twist your panties into such a bunch.
0 healing, with 36% resil youll still get 2 shot by the same stuff ill get 2 shot by, which with my math means you dont live 36% longer. which means no permanent last stant (or then some)
i dont even have bis pve gear and i still prefer pve gear. so take the bis lk+cata pve gear from here and use that for ur math....i said that awhile ago, so dont act hard now. show that with ur resil you actually live some marginal amount of time more, while doing less damage, and i might be inclined to believe you
lol all pvp content at this lvl is irrelevent, so you could have said 2,8k if that was your intention. obviously it was directed at me. ill forgive you, but that didnt stop me from posting then, or now. and i didnt know someone had to post their 3k arena armorys before disagreeing before with anyone, but i guess i know that for the future
(ps suit the class better? how does rdruid help more against dprist/mage/rogue/fdk/etc, or against spriest/rouge or mage/mage or many a comp? ive good results as hpal/feral, but that is not what this thread is about DONT CHANGE THE SUBJECT AGAIN)
he can have one if he wants, so long as he titles it "retribution 3v3/5v5 BiS" ifs thats his intention. he said pvp, but like i said before not all pvp is arena wheras arena is all pvp. it does make a difference since you can be a BG hero in far less than his BiS
Kayersup
Legend
Well, what would you drop for it? I'd like to see your suggestion of a spec to fit in with 1/2 Tact mastery while keeping everything else somewhat considered needed.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - This is what I would personally go with, which leaves no room nor need for tactical mastery. If you dislike imp slam you can shift those talents into 1/2 blitz and 1/2 Drums of War.
Besides that, the only things you would really go into defensive stance for is Intervene and Disarm, which you'll be able to afford without any issues without any points in Tactical mastery, because of this the other filler talents simply hold too much value compared to tactical mastery, that's what I mean.
frityr459
Legend
Well, what would you drop for it? I'd like to see your suggestion of a spec to fit in with 1/2 Tact mastery while keeping everything else somewhat considered needed.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - This is what I would personally go with, which leaves no room nor need for tactical mastery. If you dislike imp slam you can shift those talents into 1/2 blitz and 1/2 Drums of War.
Besides that, the only things you would really go into defensive stance for is Intervene and Disarm, which you'll be able to afford without any issues without any points in Tactical mastery, because of this the other filler talents simply hold too much value compared to tactical mastery, that's what I mean.
I use the exact same spec on my warrior Eggerjaw @ Outland - Game Guide - World of Warcraft when i play arms but still warriors sucks donkey balls in PvP really if you wanna do anything usefull in pvp go prot max ressi / stamina and be flag carrier !