10-19 2015 TC Discussion, Planning, Indiegogo

[MYT]

The only other players in the bracket that come on par to the amount of effort I put into the 19 bracket is Pizza Conq and Myrm. I am personally offended that you went to the lengths to try to shoot me down publicly when you are so fucking oblivious to the Inordinate amount of effort I do as a leader of 19s to keep this bracket alive, healthy, and preparing for the Twink Cup. You are a fucking disgrace, honestly. I really try to give you the benefit of the doubt sometimes, then you just come out of the blue to shoot everything I stand for down. The only 2 Leaders in the Bracket that are currently leading a team in the Twink Cup that have the best overall understanding of the 19 Warsong Gulch meta is Pizza and Myself. Ignoring our advice on the matter of comp regulations in this game would be comparable to hiring 2 pilots for your personal plane and having them sit in the back, expecting the fucking plane not to crash.

Lots to say in response to this. First my response had nothing to do with your work to further 19's (although I'm comment on that further along) and everything to do with you not being a leader in the sense that you don't make decisions for us. Nobody elected you president or representative, nor would any such election be valid as the majority of the community wouldn't even participate.

Secondly your point about you and Pizza best understanding the "meta". That is EXACTLY the problem. You think the meta is a big middle fight therefore you're doing everything you can to PROTECT that. But guess what - there's different ways to play this game. Just because that's how you think it should be played that way doesn't mean anyone else needs to play it that way. And you creating rule sets that favor that meta is BS. Btw, that's exactly what you're trying to do here. Protect the meta - or put another way, protect the status quo, which is a status quo that your team does relatively good at. You're resistant to change, trying to protect the existing order because you like where you and your team stand in it.

Lastly to address your comment about the work you put in for the bracket - take that nonsense elsewhere. Maybe you do good things for the bracket - I haven't witnessed them but I'll assume you do by others comments and your belief that you do. But let's keep it real - your team and SCC is the group that purposely killed queues over Christmas by wargaming several nights in a row with everyone on the alliance side during pug times. You did that purposely - many of you even posted that wargames were the way to go not pugs. That behavior is absolutely not in the communities best interests and is downright ignorant. And then there's your recent behavior when you run a 5+ man that can actually beat the pug of holding the flag in their GY for 10 mintues and capping at last second or sometimes not even capping. Is that in the communities' best interests? I personally could care less if I am a victim - I'll return the favor someday once our guild is back in full force which will be well before the twink cup. But it's a fact that it runs some people off from the bracket. Back in the day nobody cared because we had 10x+ times the tinks. But now that elitism and enforced rule sets have reduced the bracket to what we see today (ok that's not entirely fair - other factors too such as what xp off did to twinking at first), we have a smaller pool and need to encourage new people. Behavior that kills pug pops doesn't allow new growth and will finally kill this bracket. You want to claim you do the most for this bracket, then you better start considering that perspective.

So to reiterate - the idea of the "elites" of the bracket getting together to decide the rules is BS. Even if it were true that you selflessly work for the betterment of the bracket, that doesn't give you the power to make the rules.

Two quick just for the records. First, I do appreciate when people work hard to grow the bracket. I was an original twink in this bracket and it's what made me develop a passion for tinking. So to imply otherwise is just nonsense. Second, regarding your comment that you try to give me the benefit of the doubt - a comment I've heard from a couple of people lately either in game or on forums. Let me clarify my position - take your benefit of the doubt and stick it up your %#$. I don't care about your impression of me and fully intend to demonstrate my opinion of you in game. So don't bother about giving me the benefit of the doubt in the future because I don't want it. Anyone stupid enough to buy into the forum rhetoric about me deserves whatever happens to them when they play my team.

 

[Darkchewie]

lowkey guys double bm double warrior double feral or w/e is actually reallllly bad,

but hey what do I know,

guardian druids and rogues were looked down upon when I made a 19 :^)

Not much, but one thing you do know is how to drop a flag in the twink cup

 

[kidney]

Nasti is right and so is Myrn. when MYT was one of the first guilds to use Magic Dust hardly anyone tried banning it. you just played through it even if it was a disadvantage for alliance guilds at the time.

same goes for now. restricting classes totally forces a big shit fest in the middle and whoever is using the best class balance should win considering theres only 5 buttons to mash for each class. other team has 2 ferals? keep healers and a dps with the fc..

IMPROVISE, ADAPT AND OVERCOME

 

[Swoops]

I don't think anyone wants to see ferals cheesing every game, but outright banning them takes away one of the most interesting comp decisions. Boomkin, Guardian and Feral are all very strong. Resto has benefits too, especially the mobility to break off and support an FC that needs help. With a 2 per class limit, your Druids are one of the biggest deciding factors in how your comp wants to play. You're giving up a lot cutting a Boomkin or Guardian. There are potential strats to minimize a feral's impact other than fully turtling on roof every game.

Pickup wargames just trying to make the best of inconsistent/bugged pops aren't enough to ban something in competitive play. Some of the ways to minimize feral's impact take some serious coordination/teamwork or certain comp decisions. There should be a different dynamic between grabbing 20 people to play Warsong and competitive tournament play between two 10 man teams. I'd like to see more actual teams practice with and against ferals before banning them.

There's no need for this much bickering over comps when the tournament's 5 months away. Throwing out ultimatums and threatening to take your ball and go home already is ridiculous when it says in the OP

Comp rules will be decided closer to the tournament but will probably look similar to Agonist's current rules with the main exception being a hard stealth limit.

Agonist's rough rules:

No more then 2 of one class(This includes druids).
Maximum of 4 Healers
As many stealthies as you want, however only 2 are able to use stealth type abilities(excluding shadowmeld). Cheating this rule can be tracked through Stealth Alerter
Only 1 Brewmaster monk allowed
Only 1 Arms Warrior allowed

The rules should be as simple as possible, especially for an event that you're trying to market to a wider audience and encourage players outside the bracket to make teams for. Personally, I think the number of viable and OP classes right now is pretty well suited to 2 per class/1 per spec, but I could see how that'd add some unnecessary restrictions.

 

[Darkchewie]

ha
ha
ha



let me know how that works out for u

come on bro if they adapted to magic dust that definitely correlates to us having to adapt to any possible comp set up nowadays ^^ they'd have sticky glue allowed if it worked

 

[kidney]

ha
ha
ha



let me know how that works out for u

if a feral pops on an FC and 2 healers are there with him theres 100% chance the FC wont die. all ferals do is force more strategy into the game. i was dueling Kunz on his boomkin and he was getting 1700 evis(or whatever) crits on me frequently as well as being ranged and having a small heal.

BAN KUNZ HE 1 SHOTS AS BOOMY

 

[kidney]

a 30 sec CC with a 5 min trinket. .. .. . . . . . ... . . . .

... . ... .. . . .

oh god ferals are way worse

 

[Dorigon]

I recommend everyone take a step back and just enjoy the game for a bit now that there are finally queue pops again. As has been said, the tournament is over five months away still. There are probably a couple of decent sized patches between now and then, so there is no saying what the balance will be like by the time it actually happens. Take a deep breath, twinks.

 

[kidney]

I recommend everyone take a step back and just enjoy the game for a bit now that there are finally queue pops again. As has been said, the tournament is over five months away still. There are probably a couple of decent sized patches between now and then, so there is no saying what the balance will be like by the time it actually happens. Take a deep breath, twinks.

id prefer if you were less rational

 

[Darkchewie]

I don't think anyone wants to see ferals cheesing every game, but outright banning them takes away one of the most interesting comp decisions. Boomkin, Guardian and Feral are all very strong. Resto has benefits too, especially the mobility to break off and support an FC that needs help. With a 2 per class limit, your Druids are one of the biggest deciding factors in how your comp wants to play. You're giving up a lot cutting a Boomkin or Guardian. There are potential strats to minimize a feral's impact other than fully turtling on roof every game.

Pickup wargames just trying to make the best of inconsistent/bugged pops aren't enough to ban something in competitive play. Some of the ways to minimize feral's impact take some serious coordination/teamwork or certain comp decisions. There should be a different dynamic between grabbing 20 people to play Warsong and competitive tournament play between two 10 man teams. I'd like to see more actual teams practice with and against ferals before banning them.

There's no need for this much bickering over comps when the tournament's 5 months away. Throwing out ultimatums and threatening to take your ball and go home already is ridiculous when it says in the OP



Agonist's rough rules:



The rules should be as simple as possible, especially for an event that you're trying to market to a wider audience and encourage players outside the bracket to make teams for. Personally, I think the number of viable and OP classes right now is pretty well suited to 2 per class/1 per spec, but I could see how that'd add some unnecessary restrictions.

I respect your opinion and sure there may be other strategies to combat a feral. But i'll tell you right now they are not as effective as a turtle and other strats run a higher risk of you dying. Teams will inevitably resort to turtling as it is the twink cup and everything is on the line. Do you really want the #1 thing on each teams' mind to be "how can we effectively prevent a feral 1 shotting the EFC at stacks?" is that supposed to be fun? I can't honestly believe people want the twink cup to be based around that but maybe i'm wrong.

They're getting buffed with this upcoming patch too. Things could change over the course of these next few months of course, but as they stand currently, I can't imagine them being allowed.

 

[Darkchewie]

a 30 sec CC with a 5 min trinket. .. .. . . . . . ... . . . .

... . ... .. . . .

oh god ferals are way worse

we were implying that you were all morons for allowing that back in the day

 

[MYT]

Everything but exploiting was allowed back in the day. We called that meta "deal with it or gtfo".

 

[kidney]

we were implying that you were all morons for allowing that back in the day

be tough
no excuses

 

[Tombrady]

i feel like i am the only twink who is looking forward to the rap battle tournament

with no dirtyauction whats the point

 

[Vibe]

You want to make the twink cup balanced... Ban ele force and double+ crusader.

 

[Daddy]

Look Myrm, with respect, you have been out of the meta for a long while now. Before warsong started popping as of late we hosted wargames pretty much every day against horde team or alliance vs alliance. We learned a lot about class composition and we tried making every team as balanced as possible. In doing so, we came to find out that feral in general should be banned, stacking more than one warr or BM should be banned, and that stealthy stacking just didnt provide a fun and balanced environment for the community as a whole. If you don't believe me you can ask any number of people in the 19 bracket, with the exception of maybe a few lost souls that are oblivious to the new meta. You can match a feral with another feral, yes. but any sort of Rogue feral or boomkin feral combinations results in unhealable and uncounterable damage on any FC. This isn't fun and would not/ should not be allowed in any tournament if actually use the community to your advantage, since you don't play 19s at all as of late. The Rules Hunnybuns19 suggested on a previous page are PERFECT as of right now as far as fair and balanced games are concerned. I realize you don't want to restrict any classes at all but with this new expansion, trust me, it is necessary.

 

[Daddy]

Nothing is final until the official signup thread is posted, but to give an update after some of the feedback received:

-There will be no eots in the main tournament.
-A maximum of 3 games will be played per series (except the finals).
-If there is a series tie the higher seeded team wins, if the score is 1-1-tie the last team to win wins the series
-2 class limit, no other comp restrictions
-The arena tournament will happen on Friday, the wsg tournament will happen on Saturday and Sunday.
-13 players per roster, one character per player except the arena team players, they each get 2 characters
-The person representing your team in the battle rap tournament doesn't have to be on your roster, but each rapper must be representing a team, and rappers can represent a different team than the one they're playing for in the wsg tournament
-There will hopefully be an eots showmatch at some point

I'm not really interested in a feral rogue boomkin shitshow.

 

[Rusks]

i think the team limit is a bit restrictive. should allow alts so theres room to modify comp to match teams.

 

[Livingforce]

There's two sides of the coin here.

Number #1 :

Having the rules less strict does give more room/creativity to make more diverse BG comps and would change how games are being played at the moment.


Number #2 :

Having rules more strict so games are not so un-predictable with one shots and use skill/objectives to win the game.


Summery:

For the latter, I'm not saying you can't one shot still. Just takes allot more coordination to pull it off. As with the first statement, games are more unpredictable because (as example) rogue/feral has the ability to kill the FC while their team can just turtle. Witch in my eyes doesn't seem fun for competitive games. That is just one scenario.



End point:

I don't see why ferals or two warriors would even be thought to be allowed in a tourny when you can't avoid a one shot or avoid being overwhelmed by two warriors. (Which is not healable). I know people will say as a example "ohhh if they are running two warriors why isn't the other team in going defense to counter". In the end sooner or later doesn't matter how much you run, theres a point where a fc will get to a point where he is slowed by battle fatige and the warriors would come tearing in wrecking up the joint and killing the efc, its inevitable.

Like there's no skill or coordination in getting kills, doesn't bring excitement to the table. Theres allot more i can say but you get the point. Any player with half a brain would see it the same way i do and if a vote where to happen i guarantee it would go the way to what i'm talking about. Most people that thinks the other way is either old-school minded or hasn't/doesn't have the skill/experience to see the same as a logically experienced, minded player.


We don't make the rules to have a advantage in wsg we make the rules to balance games, the majority of consistant active 19 twinks thinks this also. Which means it is not bis'ed.


Rules should be made 1 month before torny because we don't know what changes can be made to classes in-between now and then.

I think there should be a podcast with the representative leaders who are with, against my idea to sensibly discuss about this to resolve the rules. This will also give the community better incite to why the rules are how they are.

 

[Laurenti]

Hey guys, I feel like I have a quite simple solution to this problem. No, I have no read all 33 pages of this thread so I have no clue if this has already been suggested, but :
-Hard Stealth limit of 2 stealthies.
Does this not solve your problems? A team runs a feral. 1 Stealthie. Now if the team runs a rogue or boomkin, they have 2 stealthies. Yes that is a lot of damage out of stealth. However, you are giving up your guardian druid fc, by far the bis FC in the new meta. If they give up the Gdruid, best of luck to their designated FC in getting across mid. Yes the boomkin or feral could pick and run flag back to team, but they are not helping in mid or 1 shotting an EFC as long as they have a flag. Cut the EFC off and it should be a relatively easy kill. Worst case scenario: the makeshift druid FC gets back to his team and passes to something else, now you still have a bit of time to kill an unoptimal EFC before stacks get ridiculously high. If they keep the guardian druid and run a solo feral, I honestly don't think that it is much of a problem. Feral opens, your druid FC blinks into your team, their feral blinks into your team, their feral dies before he gets a 5 point bite.