OP
OP
Bakedaflol
The Arthritic Arch-Druid
Not at all. I'm only being reasonable towards very valid opinions. If you can't grasp that concept, I'd call ignorance.
EU+US Why Twinking has become better in Legion. Asking about the attitude problem.
- Thread starter Bakedaflol
- Start date
Not at all. I'm only being reasonable towards very valid opinions. If you can't grasp that concept, I'd call ignorance.
Nutbreaker
Legend
He's loling because you said it wasn't game breaking, when it really is, especially when comparing 20 rogue to 29.
Nutbreaker
Legend
If you make a thread where you seem pretty sure about what you're talking about - then change you mind after some people post their ideas, it shows you never knew what you were talking about in the first place.
OP
OP
Bakedaflol
The Arthritic Arch-Druid
You don't get it. I'll leave it there
Nutbreaker
Legend
Or maybe you don't get it
Bestworld
MBA
Depends on how you acquired that gold though. Sure, if you acquire it from gold sellers. But imo that's an external factor to bring into the equation, and it still doesn't mean that you can't acquire the same by in-game mechanics. It just means that the other person got it with less effort, and actually in an illegitimate way (you have wow token method now though - but the argument still stands. You can acquire the same. It just takes time.). If we were to factor in these external factors, then that'll make a lot of games "pay to win". The phrase is originally meant to target the game itself and its services, and not external factors. I go back to my previous post's example as being a definition of pay to win.
Iild
big pwner never small pwn
you sound like you dont even play this game
Omghax
OG
1 extra stun that breaks on damage is not game breaking. There are so few stuns in the bracket that the probability of your trinket being on CD is fairly low. It's not like old rogues that could CS, gouge, vanish CS, blind ect. It's nice but if it was gamebreaking wouldn't everyone be pandas?
Iild
big pwner never small pwn
Bestworld
MBA
?
Did you just say blind was a stun and compare a racial to a class-specific ability? And not just that, a 4 second CC vs 8 second CC.
People don't tend to go panda because there are stronger racials. That doesn't mean blind isn't strong. Please tell me how x2 shadowstep and an 8 second CC isn't game breaking abilities compared not to having these tools available at all.
Also, let's break down things in terms of CC in the bracket,
-Paladin: HoJ (all specs)
-Priest: Fear (all specs)
-Rogue: cheapshot (all specs) / between the eyes (Outlaw - most f2p and vet rogues play Outlaw because of this) / Blind (assa+sub)
-Feral: rake stun (lvl 25+)
-Hunter: Freezing Trap
-Panda (race): Quaking Palm
-Prot warrior: Stormbolt
-Mage: Polymorph
-Warlock: Fear
I may even have missed some CC, this is just what I could pull out at the top of my head. Also, don't even get me started on roots and snares. Trinketing a root or a snare isn't necessarily bad. It all depends on the situation and what you gain from doing it.
So saying that everyone is resting on their trinket because there is so little CC in the bracket isn't really true at all.
Yeah, rogues have had more control and damage in the past, but comparing one class to the same in different expansions isn't really a fair approach in determining whether the class has excellent tools in the games CURRENT STATE or not. What you should be looking at is what do rogues have at 20/29, comparing the two, and compared to other classes. That would be a more tangible approach. Facts are that a level 29 rogue is far ahead of a level 20 rogue in terms of what they have available.
Nutbreaker
Legend
I was gonna write out a response but you're too dumb for me to waste my time
Dragpz
Legend
Some of the advantages of P2P over F2P:
Engineering Bombs
Exhilaration for Survs, Rake Stun for ferals
Pummel for Wars, etc.
and lots of consumables for people with Legion ( which I don't have)
Rack of Ribs
Potato Stew Feast
Third Wind Potion
Saltwater Potion
Potion of Defiance
Potion of Trivial Invisibility
Potion of Heightened Senses
The only thing that really ticks me off about the changes to PVP is that we can no longer place down feasts or use seesaw. All that time fishing in DMF for over 1000+ Daggermaws, rip.
Engineering Bombs
Exhilaration for Survs, Rake Stun for ferals
Pummel for Wars, etc.
and lots of consumables for people with Legion ( which I don't have)
Rack of Ribs
Potato Stew Feast
Third Wind Potion
Saltwater Potion
Potion of Defiance
Potion of Trivial Invisibility
Potion of Heightened Senses
The only thing that really ticks me off about the changes to PVP is that we can no longer place down feasts or use seesaw. All that time fishing in DMF for over 1000+ Daggermaws, rip.
Omghax
OG
Far ahead != game breaking. Equitable to other specs != game breaking. Better than 20 != game breaking.
But ya, instead of saying "1 extra stun that breaks on damage" (which is absolutely a description of it) I could have said "1 extra disorient effect", so my bad for accurately explaining the skill http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Disorient
thatLink said:
So ya, fair amount of CCs there and ya, good reason to trinket some of the snares as well. So how can you single out one class that gets a couple extra good skills and say "game breaking"? Do you really think a 29 rogue is head and shoulders above a 20 surv or a 20 arms warr?
Iild
big pwner never small pwn
when i tell u to stop u should probably listen
now ur comparing 29 rogues to 20 surv/arms because u know how stupid u looked when u said 29 rogue is comparable to 20 rogue
again, stop.
Broomhill
Grandfathered
Bestworld
MBA
Okay, I am now 100% certain you have no idea about the value of the spells we are currently discussing, so I will break it down for you so that you can understand. Pretty simple really if you are familiar with the game.
But before we do that, let's break down the rogue class before going in-depth with the abilities, just so that you are actually knowing what you are arguing for/against. Sub rogue damage isn't bad. No, it's not Arms Warrior damage, Survival Hunter damage or Boomkin damage for that matter. But then again, these classes are in a league of their own. You are basically implying that you need to be one of these fotm classes in order to make a difference in a game as a dps when this isn't even remotely true. Furthermore, we were comparing rogues, and doing that, then yes, those added abilities are game-breaking. But I'll bite.
So, Sub rogue does about 1500-2000 Gloomblade damage. This can be enhanced by zerker obviously, and why is this relevant? Because, rogues have the easiest time running around with zerker, being in stealth. The damage overall is of course assuming you have what is optimal, not necessarily bis, i.e. Jagged Wing Slasher in main-hand etc. That damage is not bad considering the healthpools and spells you have available to you. In fact, the damage in conjunction with the added spells is what makes you able to do plays on your own, whereas if you compare it to the 19 bracket, rogues has gotten A LOT more team-oriented due to lack of damage. You are able to solo warriors at 29 if you have evasion up, and since you are a rogue, you have the option to pick your fights better than most, because you have Stealth. That's one fotm class down. Survival hunter is a bit more tricky, you need both trinket + evasion or he could (should if he has brains) trap your evasion and wait out most, if not, the entirety of its duration, and then finish you off. That's another fotm down. And no, these aren't "dream scenarios that almost will never happen". You choose 90% of your fights unless you are bad. Simple as that. you have Stealth, you pick the fights you're in. If you get caught, then that's your mistake, and not because the class is bad.
Now that you have the class broken down a little, then let's talk about the spells at 29, and why they are game-breaking. Shadowstep pretty much secures you so many plays where you could have been late, not able to finish due to lack of a gap closer, get past gauntlets (if you even know what that is), as well as secure you an out. In hectic fights, you are able to Shadowstep in, stun a target, CC another back-lining target that is usually a healer ranging your team, using his own team as an obstacle to pass through, maybe land a kill, maybe not, depends on the situation, again, you pick your situations, and if shit gets too heated, you Shadowstep out (yes, you can Shadowstep to teammates, gosh, what a play! ex fucking dee). If you're a real fancy G, you put down an image of Archmage Vargoth and use that as a shadowstep target for all sorts of creative plays. Now, that's mid / other clown fiesta fights. And yeah, blind breaks, it happens, same with Hunter traps, people can be retarded, but once you're somewhat used to how things play out, you will be able to blind targets for longer periods of time. An example would be the target I described earlier. Important role/class, and hard to reach. Blind probably won't break instantly. Another utility to Shadowstep is that you can focus Shadowstep + focus Kick healers. Having a ranged interrupt can be huge. Something your mentioned fotm classes lack (focus charge + pummel is easily faked due to the charge animation and travel time, Shadowstep is instant - do you even have Pummel at 20? Which was the level described in your post, I don't think you do, and that alone is huge too). There are so many uses for Shadowstep. It's actually insane. "How to shadowstep" could literally be an entire guide topic. Don't even get me started on Evasion either. The lower level brackets lack so many defensives that having one is actually super fucking huge. Especailly if it allows you to 1v1 two fotm classes. So yes, 29 rogue is definitely better than a 20 vet/f2p Survival Hunter or Arms warrior in terms of making gamebreaking plays, and most definitely way ahead of a level 20 rogue.
Where I think your error lies is that you are too focused on, "top dmg", "kills in mid", instead of looking at what else there is to the game. Rogues thrive at objective plays. You're not a mid monster. And being able to secure objective plays means winning games = gamebreaking. At moderate stacks, you are able to solo EFC's in multiple 1vX scenarios. Gloomblade ignores armor entirely, making it super strong against EFC's. It's also one of the main reasons as to why the damage is as good as it is. Anyways, situations when it comes down to taking down EFC's usually consists of a few scenarios. We'll focus on being alone here, because you want gamebreaking examples. EFC is either alone, which is an EASY return (again, Stealth secures your plays, you get to EFC easily), or EFC is not alone and has 1 healer with him in which case you can sap the healer, open the EFC, healer either trinkets or sits the sap. If he sits the sap you hold on to blind, if he trinkets, you blind him and finish EFC and get the return. In case he doesn't trinket, you blind as an interrupt on a heal. He will then trinket that. You know that, which is why you saved it as an extra interrupt. Now he tries to heal, so you can now shadowstep + kick him (that's 2 interrupts in a row, forcing his trinket - pretty gamebreaking if you ask me) and shadowstep back to EFC and finish him. In another scenario, the EFC has a gauntlet, in which case you gotta wait for way higher stacks. You can get past the gauntlet with shadowstep. How you get the return from there all depends. It could rely on a lot of different factors. It comes down to if you even choose to Cheap Shot the EFC, or Cheap Shot someone else for CC while going on EFC. I.e. Sap 1, Cheap Shot another, Blind a third, Kick a fourth, kill EFC. As you can see, there are soooooo many plays to be made. These are just a few examples, and one could write a fucking book on the topic.
So again, tell me how these spells aren't gamebreaking? Tell me how level 29 rogue isn't far superior to a level 20 rogue?
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Bestworld
MBA
Being thorough is necessary if the person can't pour water from a boot even if the manual was on the heel.