Patrol said:
1. Selective moderation seems to be an issue for... a select group. None of us can eliminate someone else's bias, so there's really nothing for it to campaign for unbiased moderation; it's just not realistic, and a paycheck won't eliminate bias either - not to mention that I don't think TI has the funds.
It's not just selective moderation though, it's the entire gamut of problems that come with an under staffed volunteer crew. I get it that TI isn't a business with a revenue stream capable of employing paid staff, that's not really the point I'm trying to discuss right now. The point of having paid staff is to ensure the people you have moderating your website take it seriously, responding to issues in a timely and professional manner. Whether it's someone breaking the rules and using a thread to spew garbage, or a mod posting updates on events affecting the website/community, having some sense of importance and urgency goes a long way with a forum community. That's why I brought up the way other websites run their forums under a paid staff, as an example of the results you can get if you're willing to buy them.
A professionally run website is what Blizzard is going to require if we ever hope to sync up with them on any level. That costs money. Probably more money than just having a website. Probably less money than a heavily trafficked professional website. Only Myrm can decide if it's worth it at this point. But without professional staff on board, that's where the problems of cronyism start when you're recruiting staff from the same pool of people that regularly traffic the website anyway.
Patrol said:
I agree that there's little need for this site, but when its revenue stems from ads and donations, it's up to you to provide the funds you think will anchor it. But if you want to distance TI from the egos and bad attitudes, I think you'd have to parse the forums down to every thread requiring moderator approval, with every response heavily moderated. If that's necessary in order to reach this goal of yours, I think too much of the community would be alienated for TI to continue.
Why is it up to me? It's not my website. I'm not the one who is trying to set higher expectations with a new CoC. I'm just trying to help out by giving honest, blunt advice in hopes that TI actually improves in the future, especially with Legion spelling doom for a certain niche play style.
Patrol said:
Again, where are these funds going to come from? Without funds but with heavy moderation, you could cut TI down to just those things you want: news, videos, events, and guides. What you'd have would, imo, be satisfactory in terms of quality, and you wouldn't have to spend the big bucks. I just don't think TI would endure such a change, my way or your way or whosever way- it'd become a totally different site.
The funds can come from a variety of places. Merchandise, premium membership, ad revenue, donations, sponsor ships, and if I'm not mistaken, Mrym seems to have money. It's not like you need to pay out a several hundred thousands of dollars a year in salaries to people. All you really need to do is pay a handful of staff part time wages and hold them to a professional standard. The kind of work we're talking about (especially while the site is this small) wouldn't be more than a part time thing for anyone at this point anyway. The kinds of things that would generate money are the kinds of things that websites already employ to make money on the internet. Most websites have ads. Most websites offer a premium membership. Most websites offer some sort of product or service to help drive revenue and traffic. If you have something people want to buy on your website, that will generate it's own traffic, completely independent of anything else you do to generate income.
And again, it's not like TI isn't already facing the prospects of having to change completely to stay relevant (or hasn't been facing that for years). If we have a front page layout that clearly displays the different things people can do on the site (including the new things being done to generate revenue), that should be more than enough of a start to get people interested (we should probably switch to square space for the stability and superior look/function). The other part of it is to actually get content here to help generate traffic even when things aren't super busy on the e shop or w/e it is you do. Get a staff of writers, pay them part time or per article to generate regular content for the site - news, videos, guides, ect.
If Myrm is serious about improving the site (especially if he wants to make it into something Blizzard will support) he's going to have to consider taking it in this sort of a direction. You can't just write a new CoC, weed out some bad apples, promise some new content, then call it a job well done. That's basically what's happened every single time someone new takes over TI. Here we are, still dealing with the same issues.
Patrol said:
I get how you think a CoC should be, but this is a thread for drafting one. Why not at least address Yde's first draft?
My primary concern is whether or not this is even necessary. I'd also like to see what Myrm and Co hope to improve about TI in the future, before I delve into any further into the discussion.
Patrol said:
I've seen plenty of instances of people sharing info and trying to make TI a better place, so I think your experience is not indicative of the whole.
My experience is just that - my experience. I'm not saying that people don't come here and benefit from this website, or that people don't contribute to making it better. What I am saying is that the current state does not reflect the state of other Wow fan sites, that this place is more like a cool kids clubhouse than anything, and that if anyone wants it to be different/better, it will come at a cost.
Patrol said:
If you eliminate titles such as Alpha and Omega, if you eliminate paid benefits, if you try to eliminate exclusivity, I think you're going to fight a futile fight. Almost all people are conceited by nature, and they'll come up with new ways of exalting themselves at the expense of disparaging others. I had a look at your post history, and I see your 4 likes given, and I think you're in the same camp as the rest of us. I do agree that the Veteran and Elder plates could go, though, as well as the MVP lounge.
Titles and paid benefits are what make this website less inclusive. If I can just donate $10 and get a nifty title that separates me from everyone else, the mods will think twice about taking action against my account, especially if I'm also friends with said mods. I paid to be part of the cool kids club, I get to be treated different! I don't think having a paid membership is a bad idea, if it serves a functional purpose. Let's say that normally a person sees ads on the website when visit, but a paid member gets to remove ads and sample upcoming content before it releases. Or they get a discount on merchandise.
There is a lot of room for creative solutions to the problems you keep bringing up. People just have to be motivated to implement them. And whether or not people are conceited is besides the point of removing those things. If you want people to feel like they can come to the site and get just as much out of it as everyone else, you can't have a cool kids club-type environment where some people are treated special and most others are not. What did I say earlier about being all inclusive? About providing a positive environment, not a negative one?
Let's suppose for a moment, for the sake of the discussion, there was an organization on the internet that took responsibility for the low level pvp space in World of Warcraft. A group of people who took advantage of social media and sponsorships to reach all players in the pvp aspect of the game, especially as players come up in level and want to participate in competitive pvp. Imagine a place where any interested player could get all the information and community connections possible. You want a video tutorial on how to pvp basics at X level? It's there. You want some cool swag so you can show off your love of this organization? It's there. Want to see some streams of live games in progress? You got it.
I mean, that's undoubtedly the vision that people have when they start a website like Twink Info. It might not be recognizable as the website TI is now, but that's probably a good thing, right?
And the reason why I have 4 likes instead of 400? I don't really spend much time on TI reading posts for the sake of reading them. I'll visit from time to time if I'm bored and make a post or two if there are some interesting things to say. If I like what someone has posted, I don't really have anything to say, so I don't. I've only liked 4 posts because there have only been 4 posts I liked enough to push a button for.
You should see my youtube history. I've given even less likes and I spend far more time on Youtube than TI.
Patrol said:
I did most everything in the paragraph corresponding to this one on Vashj, and it worked without money. It was a lot of work, and I burned out; I went about matters with a bad method, and things changed. When the bracket was new, it was fresh and exciting and full of noobery and camaraderie, and fewer people took up the FotM. You can apply that to TI - the FotM is an older community bitter about things not being the same as the golden days, whenever those were. I think you're trying to apply a new man's look to an old man's community - or maybe this is all just seasonal depression as TI awaits Blizz's next big change. All in all though, you're talking about what we should do in the same place that you say that people - like... you? - should step up.
This paragraph definitely looks like seasonal depression as you look to the future with pessimism. 3.2 was supposed to kill twinking, too. When you talk about the twinking community, you talk about a larger population than TI, so I doubt Legion will be the end of min/max twinks getting together to smash.
Now you're getting so pessimistic, I wonder, why do you even bother? Looks like you've given up on twinking.
Seasonal depression? I'm not depressed by any means, certainly not about twinking. I have come to the realization that twinking will never be the glorious activity it once was, especially with the changes proposed in Legion. But that's just an educated opinion on the matter, not really something you can diagnose as seasonal depression. While it's true I haven't played my twinks much lately, that has more to do with juggling a full time job, family, and video games when you prefer to spend your meager play time at max level pvping. I always play max level pvp each season. Sometimes I don't have time for anything else, and a lot of the people I've twinked with have moved on as well. I have a friend's list of people who are now less than acquaintances. The people I see in BGs/arena aren't nearly as committed to Wow as I am (especially the trial account players), making it difficult to make new friends in the only active bracket you can get games for 24/7 (aside from the 90-99 bracket).
To the contrary, I'm usually one of the people actively testing new changes on the PTR and contributing as much as I can to the wealth of knowledge people want without having to dig for it themselves. I usually look forward to the next set of changes coming down the pipeline because his game is typically far from the ideal I envision it could be. I spent the last 9 months of MoP playing exclusive wargames with a small group of regulars at level 29 when the rest of the world thought they were dead. I spent the last 9 months of Cata collecting and posting data while prepping twinks for upcoming changes. I spent the last 2 months of WotlK farming the shit out of all the grandfathered gear and items on all my toons, doing what I could to make sure I didn't miss something. I spent the last 6 months of TBC playing the shit out of 29s and 39s oblivious to WOTLK changes because at that point the game was all about making twinks and pvping, not sitting on forums bitching about changes.
And yeah, 3.2 DID kill twinking. You don't remember the sudden drop off in activity the day 3.2 went live? You don't remember the addition of XP to BGs forcing entire brackets to migrate servers so they could actually force XP off pops with fellow twinks? You don't remember the headache and disappointment of having to schedule games so you could actually play your twinks? When you had to pick a bracket based on which nights you were available to participate in their games?
You don't remember any of that? That was the death of twinking. Did it come back? Yes, it came back temporarily for the last few months of Wotlk, as people finally got organized and rallied people to the chosen servers. It also came back off and on through Cata and MoP. The naturally capped brackets have always made twinking possible, especially since patch 3.2. If you could be put into a BG simply because you haven't bought the full game yet, that means all those thousands of people playing on versions of the game still needing an upgrade (whether from trial to full or to the latest expansion), fuel activity in XP off at those natural breaks. Everyone else has to coordinate and schedule games if they want activity in their bracket.
That's a huge issue, the primary reason why twinking is so bad right now. There's no variety in the bracket you get to play and the activity you'll be able to participate in. If you don't think twinking is dead, just ask those brackets who don't get activity. What you guys are doing at 20-29 isn't even really twinking anyway.