Chops
Soccer Dad
The grouping toon can invite both alliance and horde toons and then dip out, yes
RiverpawGrinder
Grandfathered
so for cross faction grouping, f2ps cannot rely on strangers in GoldShire to invite them into a group!
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The Abomb
Member
This is a big buff. Was already running Void Shield PvP talent. Having over 520 absorb now with buffs and 800+ on crits is pretty tanky for Spriest. Spriest now might be one of the best 1v1's being able to put up big Absorbs every 5 sec.
Edit- 960 crit absorbs... giggity
[doublepost=1654217950,1654205720][/doublepost]
This is giving me a 28% buff compared to before. Very nice! Feeling Strong in my Haste/Crit build.
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Razien
Legend
That'd be fun! Can't wait to join your groups!
.. hehe you WILL invite me to your groups, right..?
...guys...?
....anyone..?
raziel83
Legend
Yeah spriest was already strong. Meanwhile Nilicia did 212k total dmg+healing as holy in your screenie lol.
The Abomb
Member
Yea Holy Priest needs a nerf, honestly Healers shouldn't do damage. They just shouldn't and I wish Blizz would get the picture. If a healer wants to do damage they should find a Dps to heal.
I had some melee on me yesterday that couldn't get me below 80%. Had a Prot on me that couldn't move my HP. Felt bad almost didn't know what was going on then realized the buff and bug fix. It is good they fixed the bug though since it benefits my Crit build.
Blizz is just terrible with balancing I don't know if Dragonflight will fix it. Maybe the fresh start will fix it because even Blizz doesn't know what is nerfed in PvP anymore. There are some PvP hotfixes from years ago in place (that shouldn't be) since they began PvP auras they they adjusted and forgot about. (honestly hope they get rid of PvP auras in DF) It's one of the reasons I love old expansions there aren't super crazy PvP penalties breaking builds.
With the introduction of Talent trees hopefully they will wipe every PvP aura and start over. Other wise it's gonna be messy. I think they have too?
At least WotLK Classic is coming and I can get in my Prot PvP without the stupid Tank penalties.
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Radoon
Member
So you are complaining about healers doing damage, but at the same time you want to play a tank (which is like a squished healer in terms of self healing / absorbing)..
Something sounds weird there
The Abomb
Member
Something sounds weird there
What sounds weird is your misguided thought on class roles.
Yes, they shouldn't do damage nor should any of their mechanics be about doing damage. They should be focused on healing and dispels.
Just like Dps shouldn't have healing, they should be focused on Dps and if they want heals they should find a Healer or use a bandage. #MakeBandagesGreatAgain
It's just gross that Dps have healing, it's almost as gross as Healers doing damage. This is why Retail has been a dumpsterfire for a long time.
Yes, because Tanks are the ultimate front line fighters that are supposed to protect Dps and Healers. They are supposed to do chunky damage while being able to manage multiple Dps on them. They should bring the utility and control the fight so Dps can go full Zug Zug and Healers can Heal.
That is why WotlK is the pinnacle of WoW and it's PvP. Since there was actual identity in the class roles and you played them for specific reasons. Instead of the homogenized disaster Retail has been for multiple expansions. Wrath had probably the most balanced PvP. It was a great time and hope we can get back to Class identity at some point in retail.
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Chops
Soccer Dad
I mean, in terms of old school RPG roles, not really. Tanks are supposed to *take* a lot of damage, yes, but they should never be allowed to do a lot of damage. If a tank and a DPS meet, it should be a stalemate of dps being unable to out damage the tanks mitigation while the tank is unable to output enough damage to really threaten the dps. Same with healers.
But if you're going to argue that everyone should have their role, arguing that tanks should also do big damage just seems like bias. You're saying "everyone should have a role except tanks, who should also have DPSs role"
The Abomb
Member
Healers are equally a massive problem and getting worse. I qued into 7 healers yesterday. That isn't fun, no one wants that. The reason there are 7 Healers is because they can also play Dps and that is broken.
Disagree, if PvP is balanced a single Dps should never be able to kill a Tank and Dps shouldn't have Healing so they should die in 1v1. However a single Dps shouldn't be fighting a Tank. The game is supposed to be balance around large scale PvP and objectives not dueling. So Dps should avoid fighting a Tank solo and get their friends or Healer to support them. Which is what MMO PvP is about. Team balance around the classes to fight over objectives.
Well as an original Prot main, again I must disagree as balance has always been for Tanks to do chunky damage which creates snap threat to hold Aggro. We have seen this in the original design since BV (Block Value) was the main Threat generator for Prot because BV directly increases Shield Slam damage. So Prot can do big chunky burst to snap threat and then maintain Aggro so it isn't pulled by Dps.
This is also why Prot Tier sets in Wrath (T10) also boosted their burst as it granted 20% damage to Shield Slam and Shockwave. Since the design was for Tanks to do massive front end damage then hold it. This is also why they gave Prot damage shield which returned 20% damage of BV to attackers. So damage has always been a massive component for Tank design. The reason I got into Prot was for the big burst and playing the upfront team fighter in the middle of it all controlling the fight.
Everything from, Talents, Glyphs, Gear, Sets was to increase Tanks chunky damage which is why it was designed that way.
To be clear Dps should out Dps Tanks and have incredible sustain damage over the fight as that is their role.
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Chops
Soccer Dad
WoW != "old school rpg".
Tanks doing massive dmg is a product of both damage needing to generate threat (to throttle DPS output) and lazy game design. Blizzard could just have easily made low/no dmg skills like mocking blow, sunder armor, demoralizing shout and taunt be the primary means by which threat was generated and maintained. But players like seeing numbers go up, so "tanks need more damage".
And this (in part) lead to your dreaded homogenization of classes! Because dmg became the main avenue by which tanks generate threat, which tank does the most dmg became the metric by which groups and raids picked tanks. Especially as mitigation became more passive. If all tanks can fairly mitigate damage and all tanks can pretty evenly generate threat by doing dmg, then the deciding factor becomes... who does the most damage!
thats bad.
Agreed! But not because the tank both does the same dmg but takes less. Rather because multiple DPS should be needed to punch through the mitigation and outlast the CC.
So yea, you want your primary role to do two roles and everyone else to do 1. Like I said. Just smells like bias. "I should have the damage of a DPS but be able to also take a shit ton of dmg"
I'm not like... placing a value judgement on that or anything. I, too, like being a big beefcake in the frontline of a team fight while also having scary damage. But I recognize that its kinda silly for warriors to be as beefy as they are and yet still have the kill potential of sudden death. It works with how the game is currently designed, so its whatever, but I think Blizzard lost touch with roles a very long time ago. And part of that was giving tanks a lot of dmg.
lyeah
Legend
Twink bracket are inherited "under" balanced since the main focus of blizz will always be the end bracket. We get indirect buffs/nerfs as a result of the performance from higher brackets. The reason to play this pvp bracket is f2p or wanting to push your class into fringe builds. i.e. stacking secondary stats higher than it would be possible at 60s. If we really want true balance than the game will be reduced to rock, paper, scissors. But that will be incredibly boring... The real "skill" (if there is any) is deciding whether it is the proper time trade cooldowns.
My first couple of SL twink was a blood dk and prot pally, back when https://www.wowhead.com/item=33782/steady-talasite provided +6 sta/+4 arm, and legendary weapons scaled with relics. All of that combined with passive abilities like https://www.wowhead.com/spell=48263/veteran-of-the-third-war and https://www.wowhead.com/spell=353367/aegis-of-light made tanks feel like tanks. In additional, several viable tanking trinkets worked, i.e. https://www.wowhead.com/item=137362/parjeshs-medallion?bonus=1826:1472
My point is, each class/spec with have their highs and lows through out the expansion maybe all this "imbalance" will get better/worse in 10.0. Play whatever makes you feel happy and not because it performs better or worse vs the meta class.
My first couple of SL twink was a blood dk and prot pally, back when https://www.wowhead.com/item=33782/steady-talasite provided +6 sta/+4 arm, and legendary weapons scaled with relics. All of that combined with passive abilities like https://www.wowhead.com/spell=48263/veteran-of-the-third-war and https://www.wowhead.com/spell=353367/aegis-of-light made tanks feel like tanks. In additional, several viable tanking trinkets worked, i.e. https://www.wowhead.com/item=137362/parjeshs-medallion?bonus=1826:1472
My point is, each class/spec with have their highs and lows through out the expansion maybe all this "imbalance" will get better/worse in 10.0. Play whatever makes you feel happy and not because it performs better or worse vs the meta class.
The Abomb
Member
Yea they did and that is when the game went downhill. When players lost identity in the builds they created. This was permanently killed when they removed Talent trees. I don't think this game or any MMO can be good without a deep talent tree system that allows the customization an RPG is supposed to have. If there is no theorycrafting why bother playing. The Devs got way off base with what an MMORPG is supposed to be and killed every aspect of it.
Yea I mean Dps warriors should have pretty much zero healing. If they don't have a pocket healer they should be dead. Same with classes like Rogues or Hunters. They should have zero healing and rely on Stealth/Range to maneuver the battle field. If they are caught instant deleted.
Which brings us to another problem...mobility. Everyone has too much so uptime is too high which started us on this spiral of a path since MoP when they introduced those dumb Monks. Mobility should be something a few specs have not all of them. Since that means if everyone has uptime on their target then everyone needs healing or mitigation. Which is dumb.
I don't know about lazy design but you make a solid point. There are other ways to increase threat. However I do think Tanks should have slow chunky damage. I think it's a signature component of a Tank. They should be threatening...like hey don't mess with them unless you got back up because they can whack ya.
Another solid point. I don't think that is what lead to homogenization though. I think it was other areas of flawed design and wanting to appeal to solo players experience. A healer needing to do damage because of questing is dumb. Obviously a Healer isn't going to be good at solo questing they should team up with someone.
If you want to call me bias that's cool. Perhaps I am a little bit since I literally have over 1 year of in game time played on my Prot warrior and most of that was before MoP. However I like to distinguish the Dps and how it done. Tanks should do Chunky damage and Dps should be about out Dpsing Tanks with sustain. Tanks are just the complete fighter, they are really the hybrids of MMO's. That's why I played one. I'm really looking forward to WotLK Classic and deleting some people with Shield Slam again
Goesid
Twink Info Legend
Disc class design definetly includes doing damage. Holy doing more damage than disc is a design failure.
Hpala design was always to do damage going back to wc3, the big guy with a big hammer leading the charge with a aura and healing those noob warriors.
Rdruid has always been a dot class.
Rsham has always had totems doing damage for them.
Monk idk what the fk is up with monks but it seems to be the least dpsing healer atleast.
Some things may have gone overboard but doing dmg was always part of the kit.
Hpala design was always to do damage going back to wc3, the big guy with a big hammer leading the charge with a aura and healing those noob warriors.
Rdruid has always been a dot class.
Rsham has always had totems doing damage for them.
Monk idk what the fk is up with monks but it seems to be the least dpsing healer atleast.
Some things may have gone overboard but doing dmg was always part of the kit.
Chops
Soccer Dad
yes, exactly! and I get why they did it when changing specs was expensive and annoying. Nobody is gonna play a healer if that means not being able to engage with content without a group. But now that we can change specs in moments for no cost, there should be a greater distinction between roles.
I actually mostly lay the blame for this on the rise of importance of rated arenas and the creation of death knights. Chains of Ice broke the game almost irreparably. But thats a different rant for a different day.
ah, i misunderstood you. I still mostly disagree but to a lesser (and maybe slightly different) degree. But thats just me quibbling on a point that we largely seem to agree on. I dont mind tanks having like one big "oof, that hurt" ability, so long as its predictable and infrequent. I feel like that fits the role well enough. I just thinks thats gotta be balanced with it maybe opening a window to take some dmg.
Goesid
Twink Info Legend
Youre gonna love mop classic.
Chops
Soccer Dad
I mean, i played a shield slam warrior in 39s when it was one shotting anything without plate or a bubble.