Terrain jumping/exploiting/coordinating etc

[Zehj]

Just annoying that horde tun roof is so much better than alli

 

[Snowjobs]

^for a skilled fc aliance tun top is better before 4 stacks but after you get those 4 you do need a charge buddy . inside of alliance fr there are still plenty of fantastic jumps

 

[Kincaide]

There's a lot more to the question than simply whether or not these terrain exploits, as a whole, are "good" or "bad".

If you're talking about a short-cut, that any class could do if the player knew where they are and had the coordination to do them, then that's fine. That isn't unbalancing.

If you're talking about terrain exploits that favor a certain class or a few classes, then that is broken and unfair to use. It invalidates the argument that the other player simply didn't work hard enough to learn the jumps. Any exploit that makes certain classes untouchable is BS.

Furthermore, any exploit that puts a defending team at a severe advantage is also BS. This goes for pretty much every terrain exploit that isn't a simple short-cut. If the flag-holder wants to play keep-away, and gets to one of these spots, he is able to get up there without being under attack. When the flag return team comes for him, in theory they are able to do the same jumps, but in practice they will have to do so while under attack. This means they will get dismounted, for jumps that require being mounted, or simply killed before they can finish navigating the jump.

And these are especially offensive when there are such safe-zones on one side of the map that aren't on the other side of the map. The Horde end of WSG has many more, and much more effective, jumps and safeties than the Alliance side. I notice that there are a disproportionate number of people here who think that terrain exploits are perfectly okay, just as there are a disproportionate number of people here who play Horde. One would be foolish to think that were mere coincidence.

Thus in reality, the only terrain exploits that are really okay are ones that A) only shorten the time to get to another place, as opposed to jumps that are the only way to get to that place, and B) that any class is able to make while not mounted. Any exploit that doesn't meet those two conditions is a dirty trick. Using them, knowing that not all classes or factions can do the same, is BS.

 

[Lil]

Furthermore, any exploit that puts a defending team at a severe advantage is also BS. This goes for pretty much every terrain exploit that isn't a simple short-cut. If the flag-holder wants to play keep-away, and gets to one of these spots, he is able to get up there without being under attack. When the flag return team comes for him, in theory they are able to do the same jumps, but in practice they will have to do so while under attack. This means they will get dismounted, for jumps that require being mounted, or simply killed before they can finish navigating the jump.

Ahh good point . However I have a follow up question for this: what if you were facing a duopaladin farmfest? Or what if you were facing a Sanct/SS/w/e 24 guild premade? Or what about one of the common AP/BWL/w/e realm 5 person premades? Were they not intentionally putting the opposing team at a severe disadvantage just by premading? Would it not be ok to use an exploit to put THEM intentionally at a severe disadvantage just to try and even it up as much as you could?

That is where I draw my question from. Every "jump" is not the same. There are jumps like the roof jumps that everyone can mostly do with practice. There are simple stump jumps that any class can do. Then there are those jumps class dependent, the ones only available disengage or wild charge or just a plain glitch. The first simple ones I feel should be allowed whenever, if you don't want to practice the jump you won't be able to do it however once you do practice you will be able. The second example is the questionable one.

 

[Grants]

Would it not be ok to use an exploit to put THEM intentionally at a severe disadvantage just to try and even it up as much as you could?

The difference is that group queuing in battlegrounds is a feature that is completely intended and encouraged by Blizzard. Exploiting terrain glitches in order to prevent the other team from having fair access to your FC, however, is not. Yes, being a premade group gives a team a significant advantage, but unlike using terrain exploits, it's not cheating.

Say two sports teams were going into a championship game, and the players on one team happen to be much faster and stronger than the other team. Would that make it okay for the second team to use steroids/PEDs to even it up?

 

[Shamatix]

Okay Mol, lets say I still am able to JUMP all the way to horde roof by (10-13 jumps) is that accepted? eventho only a very few players can do that? It will be almost impossible for anyone to kill me... but ohhh well? It's just jumping lol

Not that I do not like to jump, but I am just trying to draw out some lines and trying to figure out where they are "set" by the community (of course without mount).

For instance take this, The Kezan Project - Open challenge [Wallclimbing] - YouTube this is still possible but only a very few people are able to do it, since they have spended so much time on learning it.

 

[Voidwalker]

Ot: even if you are opposed to them you better learn em so you can atleast chase after the ones using em

This^^
I've been twinking since BC and I've stayed away from all types of exploits and "illegal jumps".
But there are some jumps you just have to learn if you want to kill that stupid efc.

 

[Minifranger]

For me i don't see the point of using these stuff, you come into wsg to do pvp, not to glitch yourself and then /dance whatever until someone comes to you. I see this as dirty play and it doesn't fit with my definiton of wsg and pvp in general.

Anyway i guess it's too hard to make a perfect smooth texture to avoid all type of glitch so there's always be this kind of stuff.

It remins me of the exploit on the st roof in ab, i mean it is so retarded to use it, can't even understand the fun/pvp in this...

 

[Mol]

Okay Mol, lets say I still am able to JUMP all the way to horde roof by (10-13 jumps) is that accepted? eventho only a very few players can do that? It will be almost impossible for anyone to kill me... but ohhh well? It's just jumping lol

Not that I do not like to jump, but I am just trying to draw out some lines and trying to figure out where they are "set" by the community (of course without mount).

For instance take this, The Kezan Project - Open challenge [Wallclimbing] - YouTube this is still possible but only a very few people are able to do it, since they have spended so much time on learning it.

I totally understand your point there. Its very hard to draw out some lines for this controversial topic. Because one guy thinks that ToT Jumps are totally fine while the other guy thinks: He is cheating / exploiting, and he has to be banned for that etc. I can only speak for myself, ToT, Terrain(Stumps) are fine for me. The example you mentioned with Horde Roof would probably be one of the things which people call exploiting, since you go to a point as you said where nearly nobody could kill you. I see what you want to say with that example, at the end everyone makes his own opinion what is ok and what is a nogo for themselves.

OT: [MENTION=19803]Minifranger[/MENTION] When do we see you again? Gayest Belf Pal Wurld is missed, [MENTION=15964]Kraud[/MENTION] tries to fill the gap.....but well, its not the same!

 

[Shamatix]

[MENTION=17383]Mol[/MENTION] Thanks for your reply^^ However I do not think the OP of this thread can get a real answer on his question as everyone has their own opinion on when it's "fine/legal" and when it's an "exploit" and so on

 

[Kincaide]

I'm really impressed by how mature and well thought out everyone's replies have been in this thread. I feared it would be a train wreck at the beginning but you all have really kept it cool. Well done sirs.

 

[Groenboompje]

I'm really impressed by how mature and well thought out everyone's replies have been in this thread. I feared it would be a train wreck at the beginning but you all have really kept it cool. Well done sirs.

A thread about exploiting is never cool specially when someone tries to find justyfication for his wrong doing. This thread only gives people ideas and puts twinks in a bad spotlight. Not making this thread and not discussing stuff like this is mature. But sure think what you want to think about this subject but any exploiting is wrong by fact even though you might have a different opinion about this.

 

[Kincaide]

A thread about exploiting is never cool specially when someone tries to find justyfication for his wrong doing. This thread only gives people ideas and puts twinks in a bad spotlight. Not making this thread and not discussing stuff like this is mature. But sure think what you want to think about this subject but any exploiting is wrong by fact even though you might have a different opinion about this.

I get the sense that you didn't actually read my own post on the topic earlier in the thread. I didn't say that exploiting was cool. I said that, given that this is a controversial topic, I was impressed that people were discussing it while keeping cool heads about it.

I realize the irony that my post about people being polite should receive a reply that's the most impolite so far, but I'm choosing to be entertained by the irony and going about my day.

 

[Faerondil]

Just a question, do you report players for jumping to places you consider an exploit?

Edit: also does it matter whether they are on your team or any other factor?

 

[Kincaide]

Just a question, do you report players for jumping to places you consider an exploit?

Edit: also does it matter whether they are on your team or any other factor?

I'll go first. No, I don't. I'm not sure whether it's a reportable offense. It's just a dick move. Also, I very much doubt they would have any way of investigating that.

I do think the devs should be made aware that the exploitable locations exist, but damned if I know any effective way to inform them and motivate them to fix it.

 

[thubble]

I don't even believe in the idea of 'exploit'. There is no such thing. It's just skillful play. If you think along those lines you could call anything an 'exploit'. Jumping on TOT could be called an exploit, going to roof could be exploit, los'ing someone could be an exploit, etc etc etc.....you could carry it to any ridiculous conclusion.
It's Blizzard's responsibility to design and build the game for maximum enjoyment and through that, prevent people from doing anything that would take away from the overall fun or gameplay. Short of hacking programs or the like, it's *our* responsibility to be creative and find any possible way within the game to gain an advantage and increase our chance to win because after all, that's part of the fun!!

 

[Upswag]

That's such a silly thing to say Thubble. You're taking something that is obvious and trying to dilute it into something that it is not. If I said "I bet you look at porn" would you devolve that argument down to "well anything could be porn, I mean bikinis could be porn, and then sundresses and next to you know you're confusing all women with porn!?" Of course not. It's pretty obvious what is an exploit and what is not. If you would get in trouble with a GM for doing it, it is clearly an exploit.

 

[Goesid]

Since this thread seems to actually be going somewhere I'll elaborate my respone abit.

Tunnel Roof (Horde)

This is a tricky one, seeing as there is one place on it where you are actually walking in the air it does make you feel abit exploitative but all in all it is not a very hard place to learn how to use it ones advantage, it is simply the best place to be most of the and now I am not talking about the walking in the air part. I consider it to be okey to use it as it has the most points where you can LoS all the hunters and get a breathing space from all the pets. There isn't really anything controversial about it other than that walking in the air part which won't be used very much.


Tunnel Roof (Alliance Side)

The Alliance side tunnel roof is pretty standard, there are a few jumps that are a bit controversial mainly those taking you from level 0.5 or 1 to level 2. These jumps are pretty hard if you haven't practised and seeing people doing them is very rare.


Loggs behind Horde health hut.

This is a spot which I very much enjoy to use to my advantage, using the goblin rocket racial I can jump up to above the graveyard and lose some of the competiton, a druid with wild charge, a warrior, a hunter that is good with his disengage or a demo lock can however easily follow you. A clever druid can also root you mid air making a complete game turner.

I consider this as mentioned earlier "Clever Use Of Game Mechanics" there are the loggs there are the spells and there is a target, the clever thing to do is to put 1+1=2, It doesn't take you anywhere special it is simply a short cut to a place everybody can get to. This isn't anything different to a hunter using disengage in midfield, everybody can get to where he disengages but he gets there quicker. Kinda like Trickynick and Pole does using water elemental to send it up the cliff and using wild charge to get above the graveyard on alliance side.


The old going through the wall

I did not support this as it took the person inside a wall which obviously makes it an exploit. bla bla bla I did not support using this.

 

[thubble]

That's such a silly thing to say Thubble. You're taking something that is obvious and trying to dilute it into something that it is not. If I said "I bet you look at porn" would you devolve that argument down to "well anything could be porn, I mean bikinis could be porn, and then sundresses and next to you know you're confusing all women with porn!?" Of course not. It's pretty obvious what is an exploit and what is not. If you would get in trouble with a GM for doing it, it is clearly an exploit.

your interest in looking at pornography is a great example because people, feminists especially have, and do call bikini pics 'soft porn'. In the Victorian era a display of ankles would have been considered pornographic. It's totally subjective and arbitrary. Thank you for making my case.

 

[Kincaide]

your interest in looking at pornography is a great example because people, feminists especially have, and do call bikini pics 'soft porn'. In the Victorian era a display of ankles would have been considered pornographic. It's totally subjective and arbitrary. Thank you for making my case.

Actually, there's something even more interesting about the analogy, since you opted to extend the analogy. The actual legal definition of what is or is not pornography, which is based on obscenity laws, is determined by the opinion of the "average person, applying contemporary community standards", and whether "it affronts contemporary community standards". So, if you want to go down that rabbit hole, then by comparison, that which is or is not an exploit would also be determined by the average opinion and the community standard.

Since the average community standard does not consider LOS, etc to be an exploit, your slippery slope argument is invalid. You were the one to take it to "ridiculous conclusion", and then turn around and point at the ability to take something to ridiculous conclusion as an assertion of your own point. That's called a straw-man fallacy and is also an invalid argument.

Bottom line: If there exists anything that would be considered an exploit, it would be considered so based on whether or not the average of the community would consider it so. Since it seems from the responses so far that the average of the community does consider certain actions to be exploits, and have explicitly named several, I think the assertion that "there's no such thing as an exploit" is pretty well neutralized.