Talents Preview Discussion [w/ Calaculator Link]

[Goesid]

Is no one getting DP for some reason? People seem to think it's horrible. It's about the same damage as UD.

DP is strong, it just doesnt have alot of uptime at 20. No AS, Shadowfiend is also lost with DF, no void bolts etc.

Speaking narrowly on the topic of arena, I'm not really sure why you'd go it either... If there were true ladder games, you would pick it against comps that win by killing specifically *you*. You would be queueing blind, so you wouldn't be able to swap to another class against those comps.

But since most arenas at 20 happen either in Wargames (can pick your comps) or in skirmishes (which have a lot of sniping anyways), you probably won't end up needing it... that being said it does build out of Silence, which I predict will be a reason for a lot of comps to pick up an Spriest.

You pick an SP alot of the time rn, they dont have silence. They do have a defensive, good burst with MB>UD and ofc the Psyfiend.

EDIT: also keep in mind that these talents probably are still far off from their final form. For example: you can take vampiric insight without even taking VT LOL
View attachment 21238

Sub rogue having Shadowstep and shadow dance in both trees too.

 

[Bop]

I have to agree here. Since they nerfed it from 90% to 75% a while back, I find that I can still get nuked for half of my HP even inside of Dispersion. With the other compelling options in the tree, I find it hard to justify it (at least for BGs, might be neccesary for arena though).

Wihout DP, we have no reason for sanity to exist at 20 xD if I had my druthers, both this and VT would be baseline for shadow. But, meh. I at least like the flexibility of this new system.

EDIT: also keep in mind that these talents probably are still far off from their final form. For example: you can take vampiric insight without even taking VT LOL
View attachment 21238

In reply to your comment as well as your edit, yes I think VT and DP should be baseline - at the very least DP so you have an insanity spender.

I made a comment back when Priest talents first came out that Priests stand to gain arguably the most of any class right now (despite already being top tier), but Shadow's tree is pure torture. Not because it's purely bad, of course - but because you will feel the pain of loss no matter what you pick. Having core abilities (and abilities references shortly up the tree) require a spec point is a major pain point.

 

[Goesid]

In reply to your comment as well as your edit, yes I think VT and DP should be baseline - at the very least DP so you have an insanity spender.

I made a comment back when Priest talents first came out that Priests stand to gain arguably the most of any class right now (despite already being top tier), but Shadow's tree is pure torture. Not because it's purely bad, of course - but because you will feel the pain of loss no matter what you pick. Having core abilities (and abilities references shortly up the tree) require a spec point is a major pain point.

disc tree is also a pain. But thats what priests are for.

 

[Chops]

Sub rogue having Shadowstep and shadow dance in both trees too.

I took this to mean that since it "grants you a charge of shadowstep" they were simply allowing for sub rogues to potentially choose 2 charges.

 

[Bop]

disc tree is also a pain. But thats what priests are for.

For random BG Disc priest, I felt pretty happy with this build:

Notably you miss out on:
1) Power Infusion - this is a sore point, but I am weighing Enlightenment (Row 4, Column 2, +5/10% mana regen) as very strong in random BGs. You can go Improved Smite (R4, C3) to pick up both Power Infusion (R4, C4) and 1 point in Enlightenment. But I also think that Renewed Faith (R3, C1, +5/10% healing on Renew targets) is incredibly good in BGs too.

Edit: 1.5) Masochism - this will be a really attractive option for a lot of discs out there, particularly *newer* ones I think - if that's not too condescending. Realistically, if you're starting to get pile driven because of poor positioning, this talent isn't going to save you. Note that for arenas and some other types of PvP, it does look like an absolute powerhouse - I specifically am referring to random BGs here.

2) Power Word: Radiance - going over to the spec tree, I don't recall these numbers seeming all that high when I analyzed the spell in its current form on WoWhead last week.

3) Schism - not only has it not been very useful this xpac in general (at least in arenas), it is blocked by an incomplete talent option (Purify, Row 2, Column 5) which is going to be moved to baseline later on... so we don't know what goes here.

4) Power Word: Solace - I figure that Shield Discipline (Mana returned when PW:S is destroyed on a target) is more valuable than this in the hexagonal option. I would probably go Solace in arenas, since it is just another way to spend your time dealing damage - something Disc currently is quite a bit behind on compared to Holy.

 

[Goesid]

I took this to mean that since it "grants you a charge of shadowstep" they were simply allowing for sub rogues to potentially choose 2 charges.

Ye thats true. Youre probably right.

For random BG Disc priest, I felt pretty happy with this build:

View attachment 21241

Notably you miss out on:
1) Power Infusion - this is a sore point, but I am weighing Enlightenment (Row 4, Column 2, +5/10% mana regen) as very strong in random BGs. You can go Improved Smite (R4, C3) to pick up both Power Infusion (R4, C4) and 1 point in Enlightenment. But I also think that Renewed Faith (R3, C1, +5/10% healing on Renew targets) is incredibly good in BGs too.

2) Power Word: Radiance - going over to the spec tree, I don't recall these numbers seeming all that high when I analyzed the spell in its current form on WoWhead last week.

3) Schism - not only has it not been very useful this xpac in general (at least in arenas), it is blocked by an incomplete talent option (Purify, Row 2, Column 5) which is going to be moved to baseline later on... so we don't know what goes here.

4) Power Word: Solace - I figure that Shield Discipline (Mana returned when PW:S is destroyed on a target) is more valuable than this in the hexagonal option. I would probably go Solace in arenas, since it is just another way to spend your time dealing damage - something Disc currently is quite a bit behind on compared to Holy.

PI is pretty big.
Radience is very strong for attonement in 10v10.
You also dont have dispell in your build.

 

[Bop]

Ye thats true. Youre probably right.


PI is pretty big.
Radience is very strong for attonement in 10v10.
You also dont have dispell in your build.

Dispel is being moved to baseline before DF goes live - it mentions it in the little tooltip thingy on Purify. We don't know what that spot is going to be filled with.

 

[Goesid]

Dispel is being moved to baseline before DF goes live - it mentions it in the little tooltip thingy on Purify. We don't know what that spot is going to be filled with.

Ye I remember that now that you mention it, well that saves one heartache.
For 10v10 Id probably look at something closer to this.
https://www.wowhead.com/dragonflight-talent-calc/AABsGAQQCEEAABuDVEBA
Its gonna be manastarved as hell, but theres so many mana items now. Just roll with it and pump numbers.

 

[Kethcup]

For random BG Disc priest, I felt pretty happy with this build:

View attachment 21241

Notably you miss out on:
1) Power Infusion - this is a sore point, but I am weighing Enlightenment (Row 4, Column 2, +5/10% mana regen) as very strong in random BGs. You can go Improved Smite (R4, C3) to pick up both Power Infusion (R4, C4) and 1 point in Enlightenment. But I also think that Renewed Faith (R3, C1, +5/10% healing on Renew targets) is incredibly good in BGs too.

Edit: 1.5) Masochism - this will be a really attractive option for a lot of discs out there, particularly *newer* ones I think - if that's not too condescending. Realistically, if you're starting to get pile driven because of poor positioning, this talent isn't going to save you. Note that for arenas and some other types of PvP, it does look like an absolute powerhouse - I specifically am referring to random BGs here.

2) Power Word: Radiance - going over to the spec tree, I don't recall these numbers seeming all that high when I analyzed the spell in its current form on WoWhead last week.

3) Schism - not only has it not been very useful this xpac in general (at least in arenas), it is blocked by an incomplete talent option (Purify, Row 2, Column 5) which is going to be moved to baseline later on... so we don't know what goes here.

4) Power Word: Solace - I figure that Shield Discipline (Mana returned when PW:S is destroyed on a target) is more valuable than this in the hexagonal option. I would probably go Solace in arenas, since it is just another way to spend your time dealing damage - something Disc currently is quite a bit behind on compared to Holy.

what's sad is this build has basically 0 dps or playmaking potential. I'd build something like this...

The point of this build is a balance between powerful buffs (Power Infusion, Feather, Pain Suppression), mobile casting (Renew, Penance,), and good DPS (smite buff, Power Word: Solace). You have a lot less sustain healing than your build, but make up for that fact by being overall very difficult to kill, and enable plays on big DPS (e.g, new Beast Mastery hunter with Power Infusion and Pain Suppression dear god)

If you want a sustained healer, why not pick...

Sub out left side for Holy Fire > Chastise > Guardian Angel in Arena or Wargames. This gives huge healing without sacrificing too much damage or Power Infusion.

Finally, of course, you could just play Resto and be 100% way stronger than either of these...

Full DPS rotation (minus Sunfire, RIP), and strong HoTs means you never get caught off-guard. Plus, Bear Form or Cat Form utility is always good.

 

[Bop]

what's sad is this build has basically 0 dps or playmaking potential. I'd build something like this...

View attachment 21242
The point of this build is a balance between powerful buffs (Power Infusion, Feather, Pain Suppression), mobile casting (Renew, Penance,), and good DPS (smite buff, Power Word: Solace). You have a lot less sustain healing than your build, but make up for that fact by being overall very difficult to kill, and enable plays on big DPS (e.g, new Beast Mastery hunter with Power Infusion and Pain Suppression dear god)

If you want a sustained healer, why not pick...
View attachment 21243
Sub out left side for Holy Fire > Chastise > Guardian Angel in Arena or Wargames. This gives huge healing without sacrificing too much damage or Power Infusion.

Finally, of course, you could just play Resto and be 100% way stronger than either of these...
View attachment 21244
Full DPS rotation (minus Sunfire, RIP), and strong HoTs means you never get caught off-guard. Plus, Bear Form or Cat Form utility is always good.

Your disc build looks something like what I would run in arena, except I would swap Renew + Imp Smite for Shadow mend + Imp Mind Blast. Then Spec Tree, I'd take Light/Darkness over Radiance - depending on the numbers on Radiance.

For your Rdruid build, I would run something more like this as a generalist build:

Saves you the hassle of getting Dispel Poison/Disease and nets you moonkin form. Survival Instincts are potentially optional, but it seems a bit more mandatory if we start to see these Harpoon Survs and Dr. Seuss Marks hunters.

There's even crazy time Rdruid 2v2 builds (for when, you know, you are able to play Rdruid in 2's for some reason):

Assuming we get Barkskin by level 20, which it looks like we will.

 

[Kethcup]

Saves you the hassle of getting Dispel Poison/Disease and nets you moonkin form

I specifically avoided Moonkin Form because, if memory serves correct, you can only cast Regrowth in Moonkin Form but no other heals.

 

[Bop]

I specifically avoided Moonkin Form because, if memory serves correct, you can only cast Regrowth in Moonkin Form but no other heals.

That is something I could use some guidance on as well - my understanding is that you could cast any heal from whatever the ability is called right now - Resto Druid's shapeshift into Balance form.

Is that not correct?

 

[Kethcup]

That is something I could use some guidance on as well - my understanding is that you could cast any heal from whatever the ability is called right now - Resto Druid's shapeshift into Balance form.

Is that not correct?

Yeah no. Why do you think no healers pick Balance Affinity in end-game raiding? LOL

 

[Goesid]

what's sad is this build has basically 0 dps or playmaking potential. I'd build something like this...

View attachment 21242
The point of this build is a balance between powerful buffs (Power Infusion, Feather, Pain Suppression), mobile casting (Renew, Penance,), and good DPS (smite buff, Power Word: Solace). You have a lot less sustain healing than your build, but make up for that fact by being overall very difficult to kill, and enable plays on big DPS (e.g, new Beast Mastery hunter with Power Infusion and Pain Suppression dear god)

If you want a sustained healer, why not pick...
View attachment 21243
Sub out left side for Holy Fire > Chastise > Guardian Angel in Arena or Wargames. This gives huge healing without sacrificing too much damage or Power Infusion.

Finally, of course, you could just play Resto and be 100% way stronger than either of these...
View attachment 21244
Full DPS rotation (minus Sunfire, RIP), and strong HoTs means you never get caught off-guard. Plus, Bear Form or Cat Form utility is always good.

Idk that first build is just a scuffed holy priest. Cure diseases is basically just dks and theres not alot of dks. No SM and smite over MB so only 1 school of casting. Just 1 charge radience and no stance talent.

It has pain supp but other than that it looks weak.

Yeah no. Why do you think no healers pick Balance Affinity in end-game raiding? LOL

they certainly do for the extra range on healing and conjoke. Its top talent for 4/11 sepulcher mythic fights for rduid dps and 5/11 for healing according to WCL.

 

[Kethcup]

No SM and smite over MB so only 1 school of casting. Just 1 charge radience and no stance talent.

Pain Supp + Power Infusion + Feathers + multiple instant-casts + phat smites + execute? I mean, it's not gonna compete with H-Priest healing, but I struggle to see how it'd be "bad"

 

[Bop]

Yeah no. Why do you think no healers pick Balance Affinity in end-game raiding? LOL

Endgame raiding = level 20 pvp?

I'd take moonkin over poison/disease dispel any day of the week, even if I couldn't cast Regrowth in Moonkin. It's pure damage up.

It also lets you spam cast heals without worrying about Polymorph - which is night and day against Mages. Which, if you play arena at all at 20 on US, you will see some very, very good mage player(s). https://arena-ranked.fun/

 

[Goesid]

Pain Supp + Power Infusion + Feathers + multiple instant-casts + phat smites + execute? I mean, it's not gonna compete with H-Priest healing, but I struggle to see how it'd be "bad"

Pain supp is nice, atleast in arenas and on flag maps but its the same problem as picking silence on sp youre sacrificing all youre throughput. Same with feathers.

I didnt say it was bad I said it was weak. Just like the silence sp build it can have its uses but youre gonna need other players to carry you.

Endgame raiding = level 20 pvp?

I'd take moonkin over poison/disease dispel any day of the week, even if I couldn't cast Regrowth in Moonkin. It's pure damage up.

It also lets you spam cast heals without worrying about Polymorph - which is night and day against Mages. Which, if you play arena at all at 20 on US, you will see some very, very good mage player(s). https://arena-ranked.fun/

You pushed my shaman off the frontpage? Rude.

 

[Bop]

Pain supp is nice, atleast in arenas and on flag maps but its the same problem as picking silence on sp youre sacrificing all youre throughput. Same with feathers.

I didnt say it was bad I said it was weak. Just like the silence sp build it can have its uses but youre gonna need other players to carry you.

You pushed my shaman off the frontpage? Rude.

I had to show off the majesty that is Healkin. Actual S-tier skirm class.

 

[enchlol]

What's up with Sub rogues getting 3 root nodes on their spec tree while every other class has 1? Maybe that's part of why Sub looks nasty?

Big excited for feral to get Maim and Rip, but loss of Lunar insp means they might not have the combo points to do much. Hope I'm not wrong on that one, was hype for the return of my feral.

 

[Dragpz]

What's up with Sub rogues getting 3 root nodes on their spec tree while every other class has 1? Maybe that's part of why Sub looks nasty?

Big excited for feral to get Maim and Rip, but loss of Lunar insp means they might not have the combo points to do much. Hope I'm not wrong on that one, was hype for the return of my feral.

It's mainly cuz they get access to their full kit at 20 now (Blind+Gouge+Cloak+Evasion+Vanish(?)+SDance). The primary mechanic for Sub rogues (Shadow dance) is now unlocked before 20, which is mega huge, because most classes don't usually get their full/main mechanics until a later level. Having Sub Rogues unlock their full kit in the 20s bracket is a huge advantage for the class