Reincorporating All Account Types In The 20-29 Bracket Into One Forum

[Bop]

The extent of Twinkinfo's will to gather information about twinking extends about as far as its name.

Redefining the goal of the website so as to take the focus off of community and onto organization of information is as absurd as it is petty.

The strength of this website has always been its community. Even its guides, the only information gathering I can even begin to fathom you talking about, [MENTION=8138]Kincaide[/MENTION], are written for the community. I doubt a single guide author would tell you otherwise. We write to inform, to build, maybe even in our arrogance we write to inspire.

But never for furthering the goals of the website. After all, guide authors are not paid - actually, we tried that if you remember. Shane found it to be a poor investment, so it was cancelled. I know that, because I was a part of it.

And even if your mandate is to organize information, why on earth would you do this by effectively de-organizing specific forums into one giant, polarized mass of voices?

Let me apply a contemporary political equivalent scenario which I think does justice to this issue:

Iraq is an ancient and holy land for the Shi'ite, Kurd, and Sunni muslims. For centuries, up until the 1920's, Iraq was divided into territories owned largely by these sects. They often were at war, but they had their own territory. Great Britain mandated the unification of Iraq in 1920. Since that time, there has been nothing but conflict in that abomination of a Western attempt at assembling a Frankenstein monster of a political state.

These groups do not belong together, they do not want to be together, they will not suddenly become "more mature" because you will it as a requisite for a social community.

As far as I'm concerned at this point, any opinion to the contrary is merely appeasement of what is recognized to be the inevitable course of action that Twinkinfo takes.

 

[Kincaide]

Iraq is an ancient and holy land for the Shi'ite, Kurd, and Sunni muslims. For centuries, up until the 1920's, Iraq was divided into territories owned largely by these sects. They often were at war, but they had their own territory. Great Britain mandated the unification of Iraq in 1920. Since that time, there has been nothing but conflict in that abomination of a Western attempt at assembling a Frankenstein monster of a political state.

That analogy has merit, I'll admit.

 

[willix]

More to the point, there never should have been a separate section of the forum for F2Ps. It should have stayed 20-24 (because F2Ps are level 20) and when the brackets were merged into 20-29 it should have become part of the 20-29 bracket like 24s did. You're right that having separate forums only served to fracture the community. However, you're wrong that this site is meant for the gathering of information. This site is a forum. Forums are meant for discussions. It would be more appropriate to say that TwinkInfo is a site meant for the discussion of twinking, where some information can be found pertaining to said discussion.

To that end, I have to agree with Bop and Activate about the way you've behaved as a moderator. It is not conducive to healthy discussions, even ones where people are hashing out differences in a less than pleasant manner. You ask for maturity, but then thrust yourselves into the middle of threads like some child tyrant, derailing threads and levying ridiculous actions against people who are just trying to participate in discussion, however small their contribution might seem to you.

You can't force a twinking community to exist and you can't force a twinking community to shape itself in a specific way. I've been around long enough to know that things change, people come and go. At any given moment Twinkinfo is made up of the people who care enough about twinking to contribute. Your moderation isn't helping anyone do that. I'm for this change, but some of the things you said are naive and ignorant.

 

[Donteventrii]

Too much attacking Kincaide and not the collective will of the mods.

 

[willix]

Too much attacking Kincaide and not the collective will of the mods.

I don't spend much time on the forums these days, but it's Kincaide who I've seen frequently overstepping his role. I really haven't seen much else from the other mods.

 

[Kincaide]

To that end, I have to agree with Bop and Activate about the way you've behaved as a moderator. It is not conducive to healthy discussions, even ones where people are hashing out differences in a less than pleasant manner. You ask for maturity, but then thrust yourselves into the middle of threads like some child tyrant, derailing threads and levying ridiculous actions against people who are just trying to participate in discussion, however small their contribution might seem to you.

I've heard several of you say this now. I'm sorry if my actions come across this way to you guys, it certainly isn't my intent to come across that way, much less to actually do what you've said. I recognize that the impact of one's actions carries more weight than the intent of the actions though, so I will look into what about my approach is making you feel that way and work to change it.

I'm not sure what you were referring to as far as levying ridiculous actions against people, as I feel like, as moderators go, I'm one of the more conservative when it comes to letting things slide and putting my trust in you guys to handle yourselves. If that's something you want to talk about with me, without derailing the thread, feel free to PM me.

Listen, all of you guys. The staff wants to do what's right. I want to do what's right. You've made some valid points here, and that was the goal. How about if I start a discussion thread and poll, this time with some more robust options, and just let you talk it out? You may be right; the idea to see how you would react to the possibility of merging may have been premature. My colleague [MENTION=18501]Herneith[/MENTION] has said that she would have wanted to allow a longer general conversation to happen before we gauged your feelings on any one course of action. Would it be an acceptable resolution and peace offering if I removed this and started a more open-ended dialogue about this topic?

 

[Donteventrii]

I don't spend much time on the forums these days, but it's Kincaide who I've seen frequently overstepping his role. I really haven't seen much else from the other mods.

So you admit that a part of your view is skewed because Kincaide presented it? What if another mod, or Shane himself did? Remove Kincaide from this equation.

As an aside, the dude's logic is sound in this case and most others. He possesses a reasonable mind, and has excellent syntax that makes wall'o'texts like the OP readable.

 

[Franchi]

Lions do not lie with lambs.

This will result in blood in the streets, fallowed by a massive ban wave of baited 29's by obviously biased failed to pay moderators.

 

[Srs]

I don't spend much time on the forums these days, but it's Kincaide who I've seen frequently overstepping his role. I really haven't seen much else from the other mods.

Kincaide's never been the most concise communicator, but I believe she really does care, perhaps too much. I have to admit, I've wondered why she hasn't taken more of a backseat approach at times. When she gets really involved, she becomes borderline trollbait. But I guess that's just my take on what a moderator is: someone that takes a step back. However, I don't think she necessarily needs to do that. I think it's good that we have someone that takes an active role in engaging the community, sometimes.

I think the way to go would be subsections for each major level. Something like starter twinking, 20/vet twinking, and everything else. The forums could have tags. I think we've purged most of the worst trolls, so I think people can try to keep it mature. If it doesn't work out it, doesn't work out. But I think combining the forums is a good idea. It would reflect the colossal goat&*#@ that is the 20-29 bracket.

 

[Allybeboba]

As long as everyone acts their act age, not their shoe size, everything will be just fine.

We all know that everyone posts in both sections. So it is only logical to merge them back together.
The only thing I am afraid of is that the entire first page will be taken up with stickies. Something has to be done about that.

/cheers
Sweetsidney

 

[Pooh]

I was planning to make a thread about this topic. Looks like the administrators beat me to it.

 

[Bizarre]

Give 20's their own section and 29's another.

The 20's section includes everything about 20's. Either F2P, P2P, Vet.. whatever terms you want to use. If it's about level 20 content, it goes here.

The 29's section includes everything about.. well, 29's.

I personally don't care to see anything about 29's. I just don't relate.
However, I can relate to anybody who plays 20's. F2P, P2P, Vets, etc. We all share common ground.
I believe this is where the division of communities comes into play. Just because Blizzard lumps everything into one bracket, doesn't mean TwinkInfo needs to do the same.

Each section could also have an "Alternate Twinking" sub-forum.

20's alternate twinking includes: 21-24

29's alternate twinking includes: 25-28

..but honestly, do people even twink at a different level besides 20 or 29 anymore?

 

[iaccidentallytwink]

I don't even play in this bracket anymore, but this is a flat out stupid change. It doesn't take a novel to tell you why either.

F2P flourished as it's own seperate community because of the scope to which it extended -- FREE FOREVER, and now FREE WHEN YOU'RE NOT PAYING.

29s are a seperate entity. Always have been.

 

[iaccidentallytwink]

The purpose of this post is to bully us.
Completely wrong. That would increase the time needed to find information relevant to individual players. The information is organized perfectly except for the fact that you've dug in your heels to prevent veterans being represented. Simply put, your entire agenda is meant to combat stigma based on how a player engages in this bracket. You are attempting to force us to stop recognizing and making judgements about our differences. You want us to pretend we're all the same. We aren't. It's you who needs to get over it. We are not created equal, I'm profoundly sorry you've bought into that nonsense. You are attempting to save us from this lesson. Friendship is unconditional.


There's nothing wrong with rivalry. Other than posters like Lil, flaming in sections they don't identify with, the separation worked exactly as intended.
This is your motive. Let's stop pretending it's about information or organization. We don't need you to hold our hands and walk us across the road. We're all wearing our big boy pants.

It's you who doesn't like it. This is an us vs them game. If you don't like it go play minecraft. We don't need you attempting to recalibrate our compasses, we make our own decisions. How dare you attempt to relieve of us of that responsibility.


Vocalize with the knowledge that our efforts are in vain? Participate when we're not represented? You make it completely clear here that to you, it is a done deal. You're not asking us to weigh in. You're asking us to vent before you have your way with us. You're attempting to clear your conscience before a rape.


If only you could get rid of Shane you'd be a happy little dictator.

OBEY!

So long as we speak the way you like about what you like we won't be subjected to you reorienting any subject you are faintly interested in. Stop locking our discussions. Stop boxing our discussions in. Stop telling us how to behave. Outside of the ToS you are just another poster. You should have stayed one. Shane Shane Shane

That was some intense hyperbole. I agree on most points, though I wouldn't have phrased it as intensely. 10/10 creativity, though.

 

[Crystalpall]

I dont like it, but if that's how it's gonna be then I will adapt.

 

[Yndigo]

I don't even play in this bracket anymore, but this is a flat out stupid change. It doesn't take a novel to tell you why either.

F2P flourished as it's own seperate community because of the scope to which it extended -- FREE FOREVER, and now FREE WHEN YOU'RE NOT PAYING.

29s are a seperate entity. Always have been.

this^

 

[Ðoom]

Great idea!

 

[Footman]

As idealistic as it is to all join together and discuss the bracket in a general forum, it seems there is understandably a great deal of unwillingness to reunite.

Sometimes, it is necessary to give people self determination, rather than force association. And there is nothing wrong with pure f2p's not wanting vets in their forums.

I remember during cata when all this official f2p stuff began, we haaaaated 24's, they were the plague on our budding, fresh new bracket, that we were making the population for. We also trembled at the sight of the giant Kale (who while technically f2p) far out geared the rest of us with grandfathered gear. Even that gear, without enchants, made people think of Kale as some demi-god f2p, almost equal in power with 24's, and yet we still considered him f2p.

Comat-wise... Everything about veteran accounts is the same as a linked f2p, except for enchants. Veterans are still going to need Yasueh's f2paddon to talk with people and make groups. Veterans are still going to have the exact same gear and spell rotations as linked f2p's. Veterans are still playing for free after their initial sub to get whatever it is they need.

Despite this, I remember how damaging 24 "scum'" (as I thought of them) were to our fresh and fun twinking bracket. So I can fully understand self segregation between f2p and vets. The power difference is there. (Guild heirlooms is one step below vet, but god damnit they are one step above pure f2p's so guild heirlooms are NOT f2p either).

I think my mind has changed, and vets need to be segregated from the pure f2p's to prevent the uproar that is already occurring. Even though 90% of the guides for f2p will still be used by vets, I just can't see f2p's being ok with having to associate with vets. I think the true pure f2p's will be left to a small handful, while the majority of people will become vets one way or another, and will become the new f2p community, while the "pure" f2p community slowly withers into the engineering goggles segregated forum, with a few people checking it everyday. Vets are the future for the majority, I am afraid to say. And I can see the merit in protecting the pure f2p's from the big bad wolves.

 

[Vail]

Let me apply a contemporary political equivalent scenario which I think does justice to this issue:

Iraq is an ancient and holy land for the Shi'ite, Kurd, and Sunni muslims. For centuries, up until the 1920's, Iraq was divided into territories owned largely by these sects. They often were at war, but they had their own territory. Great Britain mandated the unification of Iraq in 1920. Since that time, there has been nothing but conflict in that abomination of a Western attempt at assembling a Frankenstein monster of a political state.

These groups do not belong together, they do not want to be together, they will not suddenly become "more mature" because you will it as a requisite for a social community.

Comparing TwinkInfo to Iraq... omg that is too funny.

So who are the f2p in all of this? The Kurds? Does that mean the f2p forums would be Kubani? Are the p2p ISIS? When does the US show up with f2p air support? ... Who is the US in all of this?

Based on what I'm seeing in this thread, I'm gonna say Shane is Obama, which makes Kincaide the White House press secretary, and Activate is a representative of the republican congress that is SO busy trying to impeach Shane that "it" can't be bothered to address the real issues at hand.

 

[Goesid]

The streets will burn.