Perfect Premade Setup.
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Rayu
OG
Falaris said:
I am a rogue, so I know what weaknesses my class has. For the following reasons rogues can never be on any opponent 100% of the time:
1) Sprint has a CD.
2) There are classes with higher movement speed than rogues such as druids and shamans.
3) PvP trinket/human racial has a CD.
4) There are classes with slows and stuns such as hamstring, frostbolt, hammer of justice, etc.
5) Rogues don't have a slow at 19 and their only CC abilities are gouge and sap, which have limited uses in limited situations. (not saying these aren't powerful moves, but they don't work 100% of the time)
Reflexes
Master Angler
Falaris said:
Not at all, I've played w/ some of the better rogues at 19 in wsg premades. A equally skilled mage counters you
edit: When I said "fiery" I actually meant to say "things like fiery" for burst, or more ap.
You won't stick to a good druid, not w/ travel form, a shaman, a mage, and possibly a priest or hunter on d.
It's a bit much for such an underpowered class to handle.
If, as a druid, i let a rogue stick to me while FCing then im really not doing my job right.
lindenkron
OG
Kore nametooshort said:
Kore, you're not doing your job right!
lindenkron said:
Falaris
OG
One would think an equally skilled mage counters you, and honestly ideally youre right. However, if the mage is actually countering you, then its a 5 man offense vs a 3 man defense, because outside of nova the mage isnt going to effectively slow more than one person at a time.
Ive never really tried to say that I would stick to a druid while he's running around outside in travel form, _no_ melee class is going to be able to do that. Even classes with ground gaining abilities such as a warrior arent reliably going to stay on a druid outside. Regardless, Im not trying to say you guys dont have alot of premade experience, Im just surprised that youre not acknowledging that theres a very few specific times each 'lap' that an FC is vulnerable to being caught (including by a rogue). I mean sure if the plan is 'lets just follow this druid and hope he...... gets tired and slows down???' then yeah youre never going to catch up, but a smart rogue wont play like that.
A rogue not having slows in a premade hasnt been nearly the hindrance that people have made it out to be. Its not like theres not plenty of classes who have slows, not to mention the MOST IMPORTANT part that the FC slows to base speed when the debuff hits. Im aware part of this is attributed to the fact that Im one of the 10% of smart players who knew that Gnome was far and away the best race for warsong gulch rogues, but I cant apologize to all the nub duelers who rolled human so they can use their lol19opener of garrote in some rvrs.
Im even 'handicapped' in a way in premades (through no ones fault but my own I acknowledge) in that I never bothered to learn 90% of the warsong jumps. I consider them cheating personally, although Im not really interested in delving into that topic. All I meant by it was I havent had trouble staying on FCs even without the ability to follow most jumps. Its too bad I transferred to Azgalor, what seems to be the cesspool of 19 alliance twinks, or I would actually log on and play at times.
Ive never really tried to say that I would stick to a druid while he's running around outside in travel form, _no_ melee class is going to be able to do that. Even classes with ground gaining abilities such as a warrior arent reliably going to stay on a druid outside. Regardless, Im not trying to say you guys dont have alot of premade experience, Im just surprised that youre not acknowledging that theres a very few specific times each 'lap' that an FC is vulnerable to being caught (including by a rogue). I mean sure if the plan is 'lets just follow this druid and hope he...... gets tired and slows down???' then yeah youre never going to catch up, but a smart rogue wont play like that.
A rogue not having slows in a premade hasnt been nearly the hindrance that people have made it out to be. Its not like theres not plenty of classes who have slows, not to mention the MOST IMPORTANT part that the FC slows to base speed when the debuff hits. Im aware part of this is attributed to the fact that Im one of the 10% of smart players who knew that Gnome was far and away the best race for warsong gulch rogues, but I cant apologize to all the nub duelers who rolled human so they can use their lol19opener of garrote in some rvrs.
Im even 'handicapped' in a way in premades (through no ones fault but my own I acknowledge) in that I never bothered to learn 90% of the warsong jumps. I consider them cheating personally, although Im not really interested in delving into that topic. All I meant by it was I havent had trouble staying on FCs even without the ability to follow most jumps. Its too bad I transferred to Azgalor, what seems to be the cesspool of 19 alliance twinks, or I would actually log on and play at times.
Rayu
OG
Falaris said:
If you can't CC more than one person at a time you're not doing your job well as a mage.
Falaris said:
You'll still need to have your CDs or have really good CC with you to keep a druid at melee range for a long time.
Falaris said:
Could you explain why gnomes make good rogues?
Falaris said:
One good FC jump and you lose if you can't follow.
Falaris
OG
Rayu said:
1. When one of the targets is a gnome rogue (aka capable of breaking 2 snare breaks) its going to eat up a good amount of your time
2. Thats true of any melee class in the 19 bracket. Rogues are no exception. Its not hard to spam WC/hamstring/gouge between EB ticks, etc.
3. It boggles me why someone who plays competitive twinking would not know why gnome is not a good choice for a 19 rogue. This is the bracket where rogues dont have snares. Related to that, the most effective way to hinder a rogues dps is put slows on them so they cant maintain ToT with their dps target. And you still dont know why EA is valued???
4. Difference is... youre theorycrafting. Ive backed this up pretty much every game Ive played in. Like I said, if the rogues youre playing with are never staying on a target for the opportune moments, youre just playing with bad rogues to be honest.
Rayu
OG
Falaris said:
1) Once EA and PvP trinket are on CD gnome rogues have nothing to stand on. Mages cast two snares in two seconds, that's all the advantage you'll get. Don't underestimate how well Shadowmeld can counter a 3 second fire ball cast time from a distance. Though I have to admit - I prefer playing RvR.
2) Spamming isn't hard, getting in range is.
3) See my first point. The problem with your theory is that the only classes that snare are shamans, mages, warriors and hunters. EA has no use against other classes. On top of that, hunters have a second snare (Wing Clip) in case the first (Conc. Shot) is EA'd out of. To counter the second snare you will need either PvP trinket, Sprint or Evasion. Mages can snare you twice in 2 seconds, requiring you to blow two CDs again, same goes for warriors, who have a spammable snare and EB will just apply another snare when you trinket if the totem is placed correctly. Not saying EA is completely useless, but any good twink will know how to counter it with ease. Shadowmeld - to defend my own race choice - is an amazingly diverse ability that can get you two bandage ticks, a restealth and a ranged interrupt. On top of that they have increased stealth and you need to stack more hit against them.
4) No matter how good you are, if you don't manage to move between two points via the shortest route, you can't keep up with someone who does.
In what situation is a rogue going to be preferable to a class with ground gaining abilities such as a warrior or shaman? I would much rather have a second warrior to a rogue since they have more uptime on the target and more utility.
Tetrica
OG
The EA and Shadowmeld are racials with different areas of usage, and I'm hoping that you realise that by comparing them you are metaphorically comparing apples and oranges, although they both undeniably fall under the category 'racial abilities'.
However, to stick to the sub-topic, how should a Rogue be expected to stick on a Druid in Travel Form with opponent D being, say a Mage, a Shaman and a Priest?
You have to work around the following spells:
Frost Nova (Instant, affects multiple targets, source: Mage)
Frostbolt (R1 is, say, a 1sec cast, source: Mage)
Polymorph (1.5sec cast, source: Mage)
Earthbind Totem (Instant, affects multiple targets, source: Shaman)
Entangling Roots (1.5sec cast, source: Druid)
Nature's Grasp (Instant, source: Druid)
Psychic Scream (Instant, source: Priest)
- I might have forgotten some spell -
As a Gnome, you have 3 ways to gain ground from a CC:
EA, Trinket, Sprint.
To apply a new CC/snare on you might take all from 0 to 3 seconds (0 for EB or a Nova intended for a second target, alternatively pre-emptive casting - 3 for the Mage and Shaman turning to another target)
What you have a benefit from is the +2% Arcane avoidance, but any sane Mage would be above 6% Hit.
As a Night Elf, you also have 3 ways of gaining ground/avoiding a CC:
Shadowmeld, Trinket, Sprint.
The same ways of reapplying a snare or CC effect goes for a Night Elf.
Although Shadowmeld can be used only when standing still, Shadowmeld can be used for other purposes as well, plus that the stealth-gain gives you an edge vs. other stealthers(bar Humans for stealth-detection). On top of this, a Night Elf has a higher avoidance in general versus physical moves and Nature-spells.
I'd say Night Elf > Gnome.
However, to stick to the sub-topic, how should a Rogue be expected to stick on a Druid in Travel Form with opponent D being, say a Mage, a Shaman and a Priest?
You have to work around the following spells:
Frost Nova (Instant, affects multiple targets, source: Mage)
Frostbolt (R1 is, say, a 1sec cast, source: Mage)
Polymorph (1.5sec cast, source: Mage)
Earthbind Totem (Instant, affects multiple targets, source: Shaman)
Entangling Roots (1.5sec cast, source: Druid)
Nature's Grasp (Instant, source: Druid)
Psychic Scream (Instant, source: Priest)
- I might have forgotten some spell -
As a Gnome, you have 3 ways to gain ground from a CC:
EA, Trinket, Sprint.
To apply a new CC/snare on you might take all from 0 to 3 seconds (0 for EB or a Nova intended for a second target, alternatively pre-emptive casting - 3 for the Mage and Shaman turning to another target)
What you have a benefit from is the +2% Arcane avoidance, but any sane Mage would be above 6% Hit.
As a Night Elf, you also have 3 ways of gaining ground/avoiding a CC:
Shadowmeld, Trinket, Sprint.
The same ways of reapplying a snare or CC effect goes for a Night Elf.
Although Shadowmeld can be used only when standing still, Shadowmeld can be used for other purposes as well, plus that the stealth-gain gives you an edge vs. other stealthers(bar Humans for stealth-detection). On top of this, a Night Elf has a higher avoidance in general versus physical moves and Nature-spells.
I'd say Night Elf > Gnome.
Conrose
OG
Against a Gnome Rogue, A Warrior would Hamstring again, a Hunter would Wingclip again, a Mage would Frostbolt again, a Shaman would still get away unless the Gnome is currently using their Sprint, so would a Druid. A Rogue, Like a Retadin, would be shackled to the role of DPSing a snare class's target in order to maintain any sort of usefulness in WSG.