On Double Standards.

[Manny]

Over the expanse of my 2 years on TI I have not tried anything but to post beneficial things in this forum, and all you see in every thread no matter what the topic are troll posts, generalizations, simple mindedness and usually those being done by the same people constantly

I read a thread 3 days ago about inoobupro and his amount of "chances" and I know for a fact he is worse than lil in any way shape or form you want to call her out

Lil is a very opinionated person with strong points and direct messages, so what, since when has the world been about screwing people over because they have opinions.

From the very first post ive ever seen lil make she's always been defensive and proud of what she does, it is true sometimes she could be very salty but who cares there have been plenty of people like that before and there will still be.

I don't know if im wrong here but where were lil's "chances" I don't know if the mods on here are so easily bought by fast assumptions and generalizations by others as to ban like that but... meh whats done is done, hope you conscience is well rested

- cheers

 

[bigdip]

 

[Swoops]

People complain about things that are (or that they perceive to be) OP in this game. A quick look at the official forums will show you that it's nothing unique to this forum or community. If you take it personally, you're gonna have a bad time.

No one actually complains about the eyepatch or ally gear advantage anymore. The only one doing it was inoobupro, and honestly I don't know if you're mentally fit to be in any internet discussions if you couldn't take what he said with a grain of salt.

When all you see as an Alliance player combing over this website, this forum, Is nothing but venomous, abrasive, hateful comments aimed at YOU

All that aside, when these people that you've been shitting on finally return your attitude, all of a sudden it's "wrong" and "uncalled" for.

This is the issue. Generalized comments about overpowered and overpopulated hunters aren't aimed at anyone specifically. Lil wasn't a "target" because she played an alliance hunter. It was her attitude. She constantly got defensive and argued against people that weren't even talking to her. Eventually she got a bit better about it - she replaced the arguments with passive aggressive comments about not arguing. It's not like she bravely weathered a shitstorm of blind hate directed at her for years until finally snapping and getting banned for it. I've said this before. I think she's a good person. Works hard, generally gives a shit, etc etc. However, she has always posted here with an extremely negative attitude. I have no sympathy for her because she's far from innocent. Let her enjoy her TI vacation, I doubt it's a permaban.

I've yet to see someone with a positive attitude get a lot of shit in this section.

Really though, this post is basically the crux of what's wrong with the F2P community. It's way easier to complain about things than be positive about them. "Oh, you say alliance has all skillless eyepatch hunters? Well horde is full of 24s, premades and OP caster gear!". [MENTION=12134]Rollop[/MENTION], you seem to care and want a better community. Even though you mean well, posters like you and Lil that contribute to the circlejerk of negativity are just as much a part of the problem. It can be hard to not fall into the kneejerk internet reaction trap of complaints, defensiveness and arguing. It's even harder to stay out of when you're constantly faced with it or when it doesn't' seem to make a difference, but it takes a lot of patience and effort to actually improve things.

tl;dr: Something something be the change you want to see something something clichés.

 

[LennywBT]

I'm in.

 

[Fael]

Good points. Like capped so I'll throw a mention. [MENTION=13341]Swoops[/MENTION] [MENTION=12134]Rollop[/MENTION]

 

[LennywBT]

Lol that SIG... looks op fael...

 

[Fael]

Lol that SIG... looks op fael...

All credit and honour to fluffy [MENTION=6328]Snowjobs[/MENTION]

 

[sevenslacks7]

In any kind of discussion as to why Lil was suspended (not Banned from what I understand), none of that seems to have relevance.

Probably due to the fact that she wasn't suspended for being a Free to Play Alliance Hunter. She was suspended for constantly berating. Ever. User. On this site, that she had some kind of misplaced anger for. The latest of which, from what I understand, was HB, who, to me, is nothing but a nice guy who doesn't deserve her ridicule.

I believe this may have started by you replying to something I posted in Upswags OP on Lil, which I will summarize again.

After starting with saying that Lil shouldn't be banned (Which tbh, I think the way the moderators of the site handled it well, and should hopefully be beneficial to both her and the site). I went on to explain the thing that really irritates me about Lil.

Which is her being so comfortable in her bully pulpit, criticizing a considerable amount of people on this site (29s, 24's... Premaders... and obviously a few people in specific) constantly, and as a senior member of this site no less. When she mains a class that is just as open to criticism as what she ridicules. Not only that, but she (from what I understand) played a 24 before, and after openly, and continuously deriding premading in this bracket, currently engages in it.

My aim for bringing all of that up in Upswags OP, being to simply state my astonishment for the sheer hypocrisy of that (which I just described).

And honestly, everyone gets a bit hostile on this site when they first start out, I remember some animosity I had towards the user Earlwing, which has now obviously waned. But for a senior member of this forum to just constantly, and relentlessly spew their misplaced hate against other forum members, should not be tolerated.

 

[Hunnybuns]

I have a whole lot I want to say... Some of which I feel i would be playing Devil's Advocate, other I feel share similar views as OP.

For those of you who would like to give this a listen, I believe my thoughts are best expressed in a podcast I did 2 weeks back talking about Drama/Community/Leadership among other varying topics... I understand there are chunks of the cast that don't relate to this topic, but there is enough for people to take out and see a different perspective.

Anyways my thoughts: 15 Minutes with HB - Drama with a Side of Ego

 

[Kincaide]

The world, and this forum, would be better places if more people educated themselves about the Fundamental Attribution Error and the Actor-Observer Bias.

You see them all over these forums and even all over this thread. You see it when people say if my team does well it's because we're skilled, but if the other team does well it's because they crutch on gear and racials. You see it when people say if I speak out about something I don't like on the forums, I am righteous and my opinion is the most important, but if someone else (whom I don't like) speaks out, they are negative and trolling and damaging to the community and need to be banned.

Everything bad we do to others is because of circumstance or righteousness, but everything bad others do to us is because of bad intent. It's a fallacy. There -are- people in the world (and on these forums) who deliberately set out to do bad, and yes inoob is one of those people. But outside of those rare exceptions, your falsely righteous indignation at other people is a logical fallacy.

This is about perceived gear and class imbalances, and this is also about Lil. Everything Sleepy said has been my experience as well. I first befriended Lil years ago because I saw how personally and passionately she took everything, because people DID bully her and abuse her for being A) an Alliance hunter B) with an opinion. The thing that makes me the most upset about Lil's situation is that I see this clear message from the forum bullies of "How dare she stand up to us, how dare she push back and not just take our abuse?" and when she does fight back, using no more serious tactics and language than have been leveled against her, she's the one that gets punished.

I have never wished for, or asked for, the discipline or removal of anyone on these forums except for people who were clearly deliberately targeting another user with abuse. In inoob's case it was clear he was targeting, well, all of us for that abuse, and he was dealt with appropriately. But when people demonstrate such blatant hatred and bullying against one user that they pay real cash money to have her GY farmed, and then the victim is the one that gets banned... something isn't right with the system.

Among the douchebag culture there's this thing, often talked about in feminist circles, when a woman gets catcalled on the street, she's expected to just take it or ignore it. She shouldn't have to. But if she gives any lip back--or for that matter, if a woman in a bar even turns down a guy whose advances are not welcome--SHE is called a bitch. Think about that. Think about the twisted sense of entitlement that must come with the mindset that I can treat you any way I want because you are "lesser", and if you push back against it, YOU are the bitch who is stepping out of line. Frankly I'm impressed Lil put up with it as well as she did.

Some things need to change. Some people are subtly and pervasively abusive and fly under the radar. Even I have recently had my judgment and objectivity questioned recently for holding an opinion that didn't go with the dudebro flow, and for daring to befriend someone they don't like. The Us vs Them mentality and the logical fallacies that inevitably come with it are the number one problem in this community and are slowly eroding it into detritus and dust.

 

[LennywBT]

I still dont get what is this thread for ?

 

[Kincaide]

For those of you who would like to give this a listen, I believe my thoughts are best expressed in a podcast I did 2 weeks back talking about Drama/Community/Leadership among other varying topics... I understand there are chunks of the cast that don't relate to this topic, but there is enough for people to take out and see a different perspective.

Anyways my thoughts: 15 Minutes with HB - Drama with a Side of Ego

Interestingly, HB, I don't know you, but after the events of the last couple of days I wanted to get to know who you were better, and two nights ago I actually listened to this very podcast from start to finish. To be completely honest, I was quite impressed by the depth of thought you and the other podcasters put into this issue. I walked away from it with the feeling that there's a lot more to you than an observation of some of your fans and proponents would let on. I think there are people who consider themselves on "Team Hunnybuns" who themselves don't have the same level of understanding of drama as you do (and as a former raiding guild leader I could relate to everything you said as true) and I think those people act as poor representatives for who you are. In the same vein, I had hoped to hear that you do/did not condone people paying money to have Lil GY camped, as that's obviously bullying and not a productive way of dealing with forum adversity. But I'm reserving judgment about those actions until you choose to address them, mainly because of the good impression that that podcast gave me. In other words, I see some inconsistencies in what I hear in the podcast and what I've heard took place in the last few days, and I'm sure you can (if you so choose) clear up the confusion.

 

[Void]

I came here expecting to learn more about the stacking Battle Standard + Alterac Valley Flag.

^^^

 

[Neon]

The world, and this forum, would be better places if more people educated themselves about the Fundamental Attribution Error and the Actor-Observer Bias.

You see them all over these forums and even all over this thread. You see it when people say if my team does well it's because we're skilled, but if the other team does well it's because they crutch on gear and racials. You see it when people say if I speak out about something I don't like on the forums, I am righteous and my opinion is the most important, but if someone else (whom I don't like) speaks out, they are negative and trolling and damaging to the community and need to be banned.

Everything bad we do to others is because of circumstance or righteousness, but everything bad others do to us is because of bad intent. It's a fallacy. There -are- people in the world (and on these forums) who deliberately set out to do bad, and yes inoob is one of those people. But outside of those rare exceptions, your falsely righteous indignation at other people is a logical fallacy.

This is about perceived gear and class imbalances, and this is also about Lil. Everything Sleepy said has been my experience as well. I first befriended Lil years ago because I saw how personally and passionately she took everything, because people DID bully her and abuse her for being A) an Alliance hunter B) with an opinion. The thing that makes me the most upset about Lil's situation is that I see this clear message from the forum bullies of "How dare she stand up to us, how dare she push back and not just take our abuse?" and when she does fight back, using no more serious tactics and language than have been leveled against her, she's the one that gets punished.

I have never wished for, or asked for, the discipline or removal of anyone on these forums except for people who were clearly deliberately targeting another user with abuse. In inoob's case it was clear he was targeting, well, all of us for that abuse, and he was dealt with appropriately. But when people demonstrate such blatant hatred and bullying against one user that they pay real cash money to have her GY farmed, and then the victim is the one that gets banned... something isn't right with the system.

Among the douchebag culture there's this thing, often talked about in feminist circles, when a woman gets catcalled on the street, she's expected to just take it or ignore it. She shouldn't have to. But if she gives any lip back--or for that matter, if a woman in a bar even turns down a guy whose advances are not welcome--SHE is called a bitch. Think about that. Think about the twisted sense of entitlement that must come with the mindset that I can treat you any way I want because you are "lesser", and if you push back against it, YOU are the bitch who is stepping out of line. Frankly I'm impressed Lil put up with it as well as she did.

Some things need to change. Some people are subtly and pervasively abusive and fly under the radar. Even I have recently had my judgment and objectivity questioned recently for holding an opinion that didn't go with the dudebro flow, and for daring to befriend someone they don't like. The Us vs Them mentality and the logical fallacies that inevitably come with it are the number one problem in this community and are slowly eroding it into detritus and dust.

#civilrighteyepatchhuntermovement

The reason so many people complain about the Eyepatch is because, you get it straight at 20, with barely any grinding compared to the LFH.

For this reason alone more people will roll agility wearers or higher, so they don't have to fish for LFH.

That is why Alliance is filled with hunters, and some of them play terribly, and kill you backpeddling.

 

[Hunnybuns]

But when people demonstrate such blatant hatred and bullying against one user that they pay real cash money to have her GY farmed, and then the victim is the one that gets banned... something isn't right with the system.

I would do it again, Plan on doing it again. If someone is blatantly and publicly criticizing me and my friends, I am going to stick up for myself and fight back. If you are going to talk smack, be ready to back it up. ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE CALLING PEOPLE OUT FOR THEIR IN GAME TALENT

Edit: If you would like to sift through various posts i have made on the forums, feel free. Many of these posts Lil plays the antagonist to my opinion, (which is fine, arguments add different perspectives). But it is the redundancy on constant denouncing sparked this rivalry

 

[Fael]

I would do it again, Plan on doing it again. If someone is blatantly and publicly criticizing me and my friends, I am going to stick up for myself and fight back. If you are going to talk smack, be ready to back it up. ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE CALLING PEOPLE OUT FOR THEIR IN GAME TALENT

A man who stand for nothing, falls for anything.

 

[Kincaide]

#civilrighteyepatchhuntermovement

The reason so many people complain about the Eyepatch is because, you get it straight at 20, with barely any grinding compared to the LFH.

For this reason alone more people will roll agility wearers or higher, so they don't have to fish for LFH.

That is why Alliance is filled with hunters, and some of them play terribly, and kill you backpeddling.

I don't feel like you read my post with the same level of nuance as with which I wrote it. Because you're demonstrating exactly the fallacies to which I alluded.

 

[Hunnybuns]

A man who stand for nothing, falls for anything.

I may be misunderstanding your quote, but I am standing up for myself and my friends, and to me that is one of the most important things someone can fight for.

 

[Kincaide]

I may be misunderstanding your quote, but I am standing up for myself and my friends, and to me that is one of the most important things someone can fight for.

Everything bad we do to others is because of circumstance or righteousness, but everything bad others do to us is because of bad intent. It's a fallacy.

Taking a lesson from the podcast you linked, HB... there are people--newer players than yourself--who look up to you and who will inevitably take lessons from what you do on the subject of the "right way" to deal with drama. Do you feel comfortable that you're sending the right message? You said yourself in your post edit that "Many of these posts Lil plays the antagonist to my opinion, (which is fine, arguments add different perspectives)." And yet you openly condone in-game retaliation for her posts? Which you just said you didn't mind?

Is Lil such a strong influence on your psyche that you feel you have to destroy her, in-game and out? Honestly that doesn't sound like you, not the you that I listened to for over an hour talking about the right way to deal with drama and how much you admired the one guild leader who carefully, thoughtfully wrote a post to end conflict and strife within a community, not to to escalate and exacerbate it.

You're a leader. Please lead wisely, be aware of your own logical fallacies, and use your position, respect, and notoriety to END this stupid conflict, not to feed the fires more. Please, I'm asking you as one MVP to another.

 

[danny glover]

calm down nerds