[MOP] Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

[Achmed]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Nope, don't flatten yourself, i don't hate you nor i have negative feelings towards you. I see you dodge some things and you continue on your road. I agree my gameplay does need improvings, i'm not perfect, nobody is, but those trolls and "elitistjerks" that played their whole life at 19 or under 1800 rating at engdame pvp can't help me improve my gameplay, sorry. Maybe only when comes to terrain exploit.. and stuff like that. Things i don't want to improve imo.

You basically didnt prove me wrong, it's a POV vs a POV but i'm right in what i'm saying and you know it deep inside. And when comes about your pvp experience... we better move on.. this is the 3rd time i'm saying it.

 

[Whatgoesup]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Nope, don't flatten yourself, i don't hate you nor i have negative feelings towards you. I see you dodge some things and you continue on your road. I agree my gameplay does need improvings, i'm not perfect, nobody is, but those trolls and "elitistjerks" that played their whole life at 19 or under 1800 rating at engdame pvp can't help me improve my gameplay, sorry. Maybe only when comes to terrain exploit.. and stuff like that. Things i don't want to improve imo.

You basically didnt prove me wrong, it's a POV vs a POV but i'm right in what i'm saying and you know it deep inside. And when comes about your pvp experience... we better move on.. this is the 3rd time i'm saying it.

Just because someone gives comments on your gameplay, doesn't qualify them as a troll... People call other trolls way too quickly when someone is simply giving critisism. Also, how does not being above 1800 rating in end-game PvP make you a better player at low level PvP than playing 19's for years and years?

 

[Achmed]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Just because someone gives comments on your gameplay, doesn't qualify them as a troll... People call other trolls way too quickly when someone is simply giving critisism. Also, how does not being above 1800 rating in end-game PvP make you a better player at low level PvP than playing 19's for years and years?

Hard to explain that and no point trying to, waste of time imo. I know you're defending your friends now, i'm not intimidated. People said in the past i'm backpaddler, i'm keyboardturner, even i'm mouseclicking(just because i've had the guts to make them bad) and all that was pure bullshit, same friends of Messikamen, same ppl you're trying to defend now. Now he came here spreading bullshit cuz he got butthurt of me farming his ass in a bg? That's pathetic imo. That's my POV about them, take it or leave it and i think we go way Offtopic now don't we?

Like i've said to him, but he dodged, he was here before and he had nothing to add or no "constructive critisism" to bring. Now, all of a sudden since nasty things happened to him by my hand in some bg, he wants to teach me how to play and he finds out my guide has flaws. Doesnt ring a bell at all?

 

[Mesikämmen]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

You're trying to turn this to a flamewar, I'm sorry but it's not going to happn. You're not providing any kind of reasoning as to why foremans>naga (other than "your personal experience that nelfs dodge a lot).

It makes hard for people to take you serious when instead of actually backing up your arguments, you try to label those who criticize as trolls/bads/haters or whatever else not.

The fact that Whatgoesup is my friend does not make his post any less true by the way. Please stop dragging this discussion to personal insults and start backing up your arguments.

 

[Sabzep]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Change the orc racial Blood Fury to the Attack Power one and not the Spellpower racial. Maybe mention 37AP @ Level 20 and 42 AP @ Level 24.

 

[Achmed]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Change the orc racial Blood Fury to the Attack Power one and not the Spellpower racial. Maybe mention 37AP @ Level 20 and 42 AP @ Level 24.

Thanks for pointing out, changing asap.

PS: Fact is when i mouseover tooltips in here it doesnt show a thing. My browser bugged maybe? Hard to check myself for errors when 1st redacting the guide at start. What browser you use?
PS2: Check the tooltips now please, they're OK? I still can't see them.

 

[Sabzep]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Thanks for pointing out, changing asap.

PS: Fact is when i mouseover tooltips in here it doesnt show a thing. My browser bugged maybe? Hard to check myself for errors when 1st redacting the guide at start. What browser you use?
PS2: Check the tooltips now please, they're OK? I still can't see them.

It doesn't work for me either right now. It has worked in the past so I believe it's either a fault on TI or wowheads end and not your browser.

 

[Mesikämmen]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Hands – Foreman’s Gloves(BIS due to Night Elf's Quickness)

Still waiting for an explanation on this. Thanks in advance!

 

[penicillin]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

-As you have added usefull pots to your guide I suggest you also mention what numbers they give due to Mixology.
-Elixer of minor agility is worth mentioning and gives you +14 agility I believe (could be slightly mistaken by this number as I don't play a rogue f2p). <edit> you do mention it, I need glasses.
-Elixer of minor defence could also be one to consider (gives +57 armor).
-The fact that you can use 1 battle elixer and one guardian elixer at the same time might not be clear to all reading you guide, you could ad that too.

 

[Achmed]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

1.Added FAQ about why Foreman's for horde.
2.Gonna add Bop's Combat rogue insight for those interested after i get some answers from him.

Anyway, going back to your post [MENTION=18826]Bop[/MENTION], i'm really pleased with the theorycrafting below:

Combat is underrated.

My thoughts on Combat: Your rotation to maximize burst is crucial here, because your damage is extremely clunky.

1. Sinister Strike is for blowing excesses of energy into damage - it isn't for combo point generation. This is because the additional passive giving it a chance to generate 2 combo points doesn't lead to a net average of CP-generation that is higher than Revealing Strike.

2. Revealing Strike must obviously be kept on the target you want to Eviscerate. But additionally it should be used to generate combo points.

3. Blade Flurry is basically only for AoE's in Arathi Basin. It's actually pretty impressive to stop 4-5 people with a body-rez into this toggle.

Rotation: Revealing -> Revealing -> Revealing -> Revealing -> (Wait 80 energy) -> Sinister Strike -> Eviscerate

Or from stealth: Ambush -> Revealing -> Revealing -> (Wait 80 energy) -> Sinister Strike -> Eviscerate

It isn't really worth keeping Slice N Dice up for anything other than quick poison application, because the burst damage from Eviscerate outweighs the accumulative damage from faster melee.

Talents are up to individual playstyles.
1. Nightstalker is my preference for all specs because I wargame more than anything on my rogue, and in wargames you maximize sap's effectiveness by ambushing your off-target asap.
2. Subterfuge is actually really scary on Combat, because you can ambush -> ambush -> revealing -> Eviscerate in a really short amount of time.
3. Shadow Focus is the standard choice for Assassination rogues since your post-ambush burst tends to fall off without it, and for that reason it's not a bad idea for Combat either.

From the start i must say i didnt have time to test all of this but your theory, like i've said above i find solid. I think the main problem of this spec is that like you've said, "maximizing burst is crucial". Now, i have a few questions.

1. SS does alot more dmg(19 in addition to 240% of your normal weapon damage) compared to RS(160% weapon damage) but RS adds a debuff on the target for EVI. SS eats 50 energy and RS eats 40 energy. Now, basically from your rotation, you're crippling your sustained dmg to maximize your finisher in short time (hope i got it right and you understood what i'm trying to say) since the usual rotation would be RS-> SS (till 5CP)-> Evi. Correct?

2. Since we all know in this bracket you need to be fast and effective, i wonder how fast and effective can you be compared to Sub or Assa since your dmg depends alot on maximizing 5CP Eviscerates(i know the energy regen is faster on Combat but still) ?

3. What gear choice you will take for Combat?

4. Compared to Sub/Assa, where would you put Combat?

About talent choices, i'm really against Subterfuge vs good Players, you won't get the second Ambush since you need to pool a litle energy before the 2nd one to land and they will face you. But, as you've said it's personal preference.

-As you have added usefull pots to your guide I suggest you also mention what numbers they give due to Mixology.
-Elixer of minor agility is worth mentioning and gives you +14 agility I believe (could be slightly mistaken by this number as I don't play a rogue f2p).
-Elixer of minor defence could also be one to consider (gives +57 armor).
-The fact that you can use 1 battle elixer and one guardian elixer at the same time might not be clear to all reading you guide, you could ad that too.

Good post, added except the Minor Defence elixir, i think we really don't need that since our role is not to FC. Thanks ^^

 

[Kenny's a Bieetch]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

I wasn't going to respond to your reply of my post, it just bugged me a lot, and am only replying to show I am not conceding. We just disagree on many too many things.

You asked about energy starving with blade flurry. I personally don't use it for more than a few seconds, I am quite mindful of my energy bar at all times. I use it only if it is necessary as a AoE in PVP, only on the flag in Arathi Basin. I have no need to do dungeons at level 20, if I am in a dungeon I always have slice and dice up. In dungeons 90% of the time I have top damage, and about the only dungeon I do is The Stockade for health potions and silk cloth.

Combat spec and Subtlety spec can use any 1 handed weapons. The only spec that has a mandatory weapon is Assassination spec, which you have to use daggers to use Mutilate.

A few times you hinted at combat spec being easy. We all know very well that subtlety spec is an easier spec of rogue at level 20. You don't fully understand combat spec hence proving it is more complex. If you can play it at 90, what is stopping you test it out at 20, give it a fair go.

Most of the time when I eviserate, I use 4 CP. I believe when BOP suggested some rotations it was for you or anybody else interested in trying out combat spec as a basic guide to the spec. I follow no set rotations, and I test different combinations in duels and bgs. Each fight is always different, even if you have the same opponent. If you don't vary your attacks, you become predictable with them trying to anticipate your next move. The reason I usually eviserate on 4 CP, is because if I was to receive a bonus CP it would be wasted.

You said if it was up to you, you would remove combat spec from the game. Well if it was up to me, we would get back the talent trees. That way you can tweak your class far more and customize it to exactly the way you want. I forget how many combinations there were, but instead of a measly three, there would be like 50 possible combinations.

As far as combat spec goes, and all the specs, they all suck. I got into this game late in its life cycle. I'm just making do with what is left of this game. Removing a spec would only further simplify the game, I would far rather there be added complexities than dumbing it down.

Finally my personal thought of combat spec. I like to improve on my weaknesses, combat to me is like a hybrid spec. When dueling another rogue, 2/3 times the person who gets the opener wins. But with combat spec, if you are pulled from stealth you are still lethal. And with other classes we do love the good old ambush, but isn't it great to take down warriors and pallys when you know that you might have to fight longer than 10 seconds. For me combat is the best of both worlds.

 

[Achmed]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Combat spec and Subtlety spec can use any 1 handed weapons. The only spec that has a mandatory weapon is Assassination spec, which you have to use daggers to use Mutilate.

Yes they can but for Combat to be viable, you need to use slow MH that is Axe/Sword/Mace, Sub can also use slow weps ofc but it will help you? I don't think so, Ambush and Hemo benefits more from Daggers.

A few times you hinted at combat spec being easy. We all know very well that subtlety spec is an easier spec of rogue at level 20. You don't fully understand combat spec hence proving it is more complex. If you can play it at 90, what is stopping you test it out at 20, give it a fair go.

I didnt said Sub is hard at 20, i've said only that at 20 gameplay is very fast, you don't have time for compex rotations as Bop indicated, you need to be fast and effective. Why i cba testing at 20? One reason was just explained, the other one is that i don't have time atm to change specs travel to theramore, test gear combos and so on.

Well if it was up to me, we would get back the talent trees.

I totally agree with you on this one.

As far as combat spec goes, and all the specs, they all suck. I got into this game late in its life cycle. I'm just making do with what is left of this game. Removing a spec would only further simplify the game, I would far rather there be added complexities than dumbing it down.

That's your point of view and i respect it even if i don't agree.

Finally my personal thought of combat spec. I like to improve on my weaknesses, combat to me is like a hybrid spec. When dueling another rogue, 2/3 times the person who gets the opener wins. But with combat spec, if you are pulled from stealth you are still lethal. And with other classes we do love the good old ambush, but isn't it great to take down warriors and pallys when you know that you might have to fight longer than 10 seconds. For me combat is the best of both worlds.

I'd like to duel you but sadly we can't do that. And yes, it is nice to do that to warrs and paladins but, battlegrounds are not about 1vs1.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback, i really apreciate it ^^

 

[Kenny's a Bieetch]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Cheers for the reply, I probably went a bit far saying all three of the specs suck. Wishing to bring back the old customization is nothing more than a dream, since it will never happen. As I said I'm just trying to make the most of it. If I truely hated all the specs I wouldn't still be playing a rogue, although i'm starting to try other classes and some are pretty decent.

At the moment I am going to have a another go at either sub or assassin spec and try to see what differences I can find, since my sub rogues are pretty poorly geared. And there's not a great deal more I can do with my mains, having looms and I can't really be bothered trying to farm rare items with less than 1% chance. So yeh just doing it for something to do, I think I made my point, as long as people don't see combat as an absolute no no then I'm happy.

It would be nice to have a duel, if after WoD we can give all our toons BoAs then it might be possible, or a could slap together a dodgy 1, but even still that is rather a long length to go to for just a duel. I don't have anything against you, and I still do respect your opinion. I'm sorry I am pretty poor at expressing my thoughts, I always tend to waffle on a bit. I don't like to back down from a duel, so I am still willing, but it may take some time if you would like. And as always if I am defeated I will /bow /salute . Peace out

 

[Achmed]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

What you want is a dream indeed, WoW became simplified as f@#k over the years, last time when WoW was indeed a treasure for guys like you and me, was back in TBC, since the release of WoTLK and so on, WoW became more casual and, like i've said, simplified, that's the trend.

I've said Combat it's easy based on my 90 PVE experience only since i find it relaxing and with huge AoE dmg, maybe you understood me wrong on this one. I've said it already i might be subjective when comes to Combat because like you've said, it's a Hybrid spec and for me, it feels like i'm playing an warrior with stealth. Not my style, not rogueish at all from my point of view. Also, even so, i can't see Combat having the burst of Sub or Assa, burst really needed at this level. That's why i want your input and feedbacks, and that's why i appreciate any non-troll and truthful feedback on this topic.

Cheers.

 

[lifelover]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Nvm, mistake.

 

[Revlo]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

First off thanks for the guide. I just recently have gotten back into playing my rogue again, it's been about since MoP launched. Anyway, would it be ridiculous to use Dissector for offhand? Would lose OH damage and crit, but would gain 2 agi. I realize it might not be as good a trade off as using BH for OH, but until I grab a BH would you think it's a bad idea? Would it be a bad idea to even use Dissector situationally, say just to go for multiple rogue big ambush?

Thanks!

 

[Achmed]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

First off thanks for the guide. I just recently have gotten back into playing my rogue again, it's been about since MoP launched. Anyway, would it be ridiculous to use Dissector for offhand? Would lose OH damage and crit, but would gain 2 agi. I realize it might not be as good a trade off as using BH for OH, but until I grab a BH would you think it's a bad idea? Would it be a bad idea to even use Dissector situationally, say just to go for multiple rogue big ambush?

Thanks!

If you go Assa, the crit from WD would be more useful. But as sub sure, you can go with Dissector for OH till you get BH.

 

[Bop]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

1.Added FAQ about why Foreman's for horde.
2.Gonna add Bop's Combat rogue insight for those interested after i get some answers from him.

Anyway, going back to your post [MENTION=18826]Bop[/MENTION], i'm really pleased with the theorycrafting below:



From the start i must say i didnt have time to test all of this but your theory, like i've said above i find solid. I think the main problem of this spec is that like you've said, "maximizing burst is crucial". Now, i have a few questions.

1. SS does alot more dmg(19 in addition to 240% of your normal weapon damage) compared to RS(160% weapon damage) but RS adds a debuff on the target for EVI. SS eats 50 energy and RS eats 40 energy. Now, basically from your rotation, you're crippling your sustained dmg to maximize your finisher in short time (hope i got it right and you understood what i'm trying to say) since the usual rotation would be RS-> SS (till 5CP)-> Evi. Correct?

2. Since we all know in this bracket you need to be fast and effective, i wonder how fast and effective can you be compared to Sub or Assa since your dmg depends alot on maximizing 5CP Eviscerates(i know the energy regen is faster on Combat but still) ?

3. What gear choice you will take for Combat?

4. Compared to Sub/Assa, where would you put Combat?

About talent choices, i'm really against Subterfuge vs good Players, you won't get the second Ambush since you need to pool a litle energy before the 2nd one to land and they will face you. But, as you've said it's personal preference.

1. I'm not so sure you are "crippling" sustained damage by using RS to generate combo points. From a DPS perspective, it's superior to Hemo spam on Subtlety (since you are using high base damage weapons to instantly strike the target). The DPS may be slightly lower than SS spam, but the end result is faster Eviscerates - which increases your DPS substantially more than SS's CP generation and allows you to put killing pressure up on your target with more frequency.

2. Well, Assassination is mega sustained damage similar to Arms warriors (in output method, not in numbers), and Subtlety is obviously based a lot around the opener. I'd say Combat is most like Feral druids. The threat of the "bite" is often a lot of pressure by itself and, unlike Feral which has a lot of conditions on its 5 CP finisher (Tiger's Fury + Savage Roar + Bleed), it is up quite often due to the quick energy regeneration of Combat.

3. Well the first obvious gear scaling that Combat has is from Attack Power. Since Eviscerate scales solely from Attack Power, stacking agility is inherently a good idea. That being said, the benefit from Critical Strike is also extremely important. Non-Critical strike Eviscerates can still be in the 500+ zone, but landing crits is extremely important in putting out that Feral-esque burst that forces kills. I would personally build Combat more like a glass cannon than I would either of the other two specs.

For weapons, I would use either:
A. Axes of the Enforcer - high weapon damage is still important since it scales with both Revealing and Sinister Strikes.
B. Masses of McGowan - Since your energy regen rate is increased by a percentage rather than a base number, haste scales with combat in terms of energy regeneration at a slightly higher rate than other classes. The Critical Strike and base stats are also rather nice.
C. Dal'Rend's Sacred Charges - Pure Agility/Stamina/Crit weapons seem to be the most solid choices without spending ridiculous amounts of time farming for Axes of the Enforcer. I would probably use these for non-BG pvp over AoEs, anyways.

4. I would say that Combat is viable in regards to damage output. It does not have consistent damage equivalent to Assassination, but its non-stealth reliant burst is extremely powerful. Go Assassination for non-stealth DPS, go Subtlety for the opener burst, but go Combat to kill healers or targets getting healed. A Feral druid that trades top-end burst from the 5CP finisher in exchange for more up-time on that finisher, an interrupt, and crippling poison is not a bad trade at all.

 

[Achmed]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Due to your feedback on Combat spec, i've decided to quote your POV's into the main guide. Thanks, and i'm waiting for more feedbacks

 

[LennywBT]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Nice guide !