Math Breakdown: Rogue Weapons

Domunique said:
I appreciate you doing all the numbers sir, I'm not a smart guy so this helps.

I see alot of it as chalking up to preference, circumstances and cooldowns.

Rogues that play alot of Arenas will have different builds as to ones that want to play Battlegrounds.

The most consistent and all-round diversified kit for a rogue (if you cbb rechanging your specs/talents all the time) is .............*drum roll*..............

Race - Night elf (racist I know), Undead (for horde)
Spec - Combat
Talent - Nightstalker

My opinions of course <3
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I'm not so sure I agree with your race assessments.

I mean of course Night Elves are head-and-shoulders above any other F2P Rogue spec, for numerous reasons - not the least of which being Vanish.

But Undead for Horde? I think it's a viable choice, especially if you plan to do a lot of arenas where the consistent damage from TotG will add up. Belf or Goblin make a lot more sense to me, at least from the perspective of utility. The Arcane Torrent is hard to argue with as being the best Horde Rogue racial, and comes the closest to even making Nelf Rogues jealous. Goblins have a pseudo-SStep (in addition to Thrall's Gift as a bracers choice, which scales to 10 agility), making them a niche pick for certain playstyles.

I agree with your overall assessments though. Each spec and each talent has its use. I just wish that something as diverse as a Rogue wasn't immediately overshadowed in nearly every form by 1 single Druid class specialization :/
 
Hey I just read some of this but ToV and Heartseeker or WSG dagger is BiS.

There's no way ToV OH for Mut is going to beat out melee damage. 40% of our damage from Assassination comes from melee. Mut is around 15% and OH Mut is like 4%...

You can see how much higher ToV and fast dagger OH is on the 2nd spreadsheet, first page.
 
Just ran the numbers for a assas spec vs combat and combat comes out ahead by about 1k damage. the rotations i ran were for combat

7 sec of tot . ambush , revealing, sinister strike x2 , eviserate 5 cp

and assas

7 sec of tot . ambush mute envenom, mute mute envenome


i factored in the increased poison chance and everything even with slice on assas and not on combat. combat was still stronger.

the main difference was in the finisher damage . like a 500 damage difference .

conclusion


Combat is superior bg spec by far. assas has no benefit that combat does not and combat has the blade fury as well .

ill look into the possibility of subtly as an arena spec next .
 
Yea but Assassnation is num1 funnest to play...

The biggest contributor to assassination damage might not be Envenom (which sucks at this level anyways) but the increase poison proc after. I read an interesting wowhead comment about stacking haste to generate enough energy to get 2 muts off before the envenom proc falls enough. So basically you have a 100% uptime of with increased poison apply. No idea if this is how end game works, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

Also don't forget about the recent 30% buff to hemo when you do the maths (6.0.3 Dec 15th)
 
Snowjobs said:
Just ran the numbers for a assas spec vs combat and combat comes out ahead by about 1k damage. the rotations i ran were for combat
7 sec of tot . ambush , revealing, sinister strike x2 , eviserate 5 cp
and assas
7 sec of tot . ambush mute envenom, mute mute envenome
i factored in the increased poison chance and everything even with slice on assas and not on combat. combat was still stronger.
the main difference was in the finisher damage . like a 500 damage difference .
conclusion
Combat is superior bg spec by far. assas has no benefit that combat does not and combat has the blade fury as well .
ill look into the possibility of subtly as an arena spec next .
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I don't understand how you can make conclusions about one rogue spec being better than another. Even if you can say that one spec has superior performance in one scenario, you still have to make that distinction, and I'm talking about detailed in combat/ energy dependent/ enemy specific scenarios not an overarching comment about battlegrounds or arenas in general.

Also, "assas has no benefit that combat does not." I'll just assume this is laziness and not ignorance. Anyway Ill forget the agi/ap/dagdps spec specific buffs but Ill mention: twenty extra energy/ increased poison procs/envenom refresh s&d. I think you know these things so be careful not to get all mad genius posting rogue calculations and then cut off your own hand.

Further, your conclusion is based on a seven second snap shot of a possibly ideal rogue rotation, but pvp doesn't happen in seven second snap shots, even if some rogues might like it to. I would be more interested in seeing two curves on a graph and the time stamp where mutilate starts outperforming combat.

So I don't mean to invalidate anything, In fact I appreciate all this information, especially the math that individuals are doing privately and sharing with the community. I just think that in a thread like this, where the op is a list of numerical values, both discussion and further research should be presented in an accurate way.
 
Domunique said:
Jib doesn't even sound like he plays a rogue lol.
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Honestly I feel like his post made more of a contribution to the thread than yours.

Please be mindful of belittling others.
 
You know what, after re-reading his post, it does make more sense than I thought, but his fake outrage doesn't interest me.

Also this is purely number crunching, snowjobs agrees with me that every spec/talent is viable.

I personally think I contributed more but meh, its not about me, BoP is the one contributing.
 
No, I agree with what Jib has said. Nothing he said is without logic or basis.

Damage calculations are made in a vacuum and rely on a perfect Target Dummy.

No one should take the calculations as they are as being the infallible law of that class or spec.

What they do provide is a reference point. You can extrapolate from the information given far more than the actual information given can provide for you.

In this particular instance, for example, it's important to note that the snapshot favors the 5 CP rush for Combat - which is a time threshold for which Assassination has no response. If Combat hits its 5 CP every 15 seconds, then it's going to win every 15 seconds. The problem is that pressure every 15 seconds may or may not be enough to push a healer over the edge. It is certainly easier to deal with large burst every 15 seconds with weak damage in-between than it is to face moderate-to-high damage consistently.

Numbers are numbers - don't forget that we're playing against other players. Data calculation is extremely important to understanding a class or a spec, but Data analysis is equally important so as to not make a wrong conclusion.
 
Huge part of assas is definitely poison uptime, which isnt really quantifiable. The fact that you are using

a mainhand dagger that is much faster than a sword main hand on combat

your main cp builder (mut) hits twice

you have infinite uptime on snd

definitely makes it hard for a druid to powershift the constant poison slow.



combat does have some huge points on the other hand too.

white hits hit hard with super high ap and slow weapons

if you like to live on the edge and use sinister strike and you happen to get the double combo points from revealing strike you can get some really fast eviscerates off



sub i havent played much since wod
 
Domunique said:
I personally think I contributed more but meh
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My apologies for being unclear, Dom, I was only referring to the post I was quoting, not your significant earlier contributions.
 
Jib said:
I don't understand how you can make conclusions about one rogue spec being better than another. Even if you can say that one spec has superior performance in one scenario, you still have to make that distinction, and I'm talking about detailed in combat/ energy dependent/ enemy specific scenarios not an overarching comment about battlegrounds or arenas in general.

Also, "assas has no benefit that combat does not." I'll just assume this is laziness and not ignorance. Anyway Ill forget the agi/ap/dagdps spec specific buffs but Ill mention: twenty extra energy/ increased poison procs/envenom refresh s&d. I think you know these things so be careful not to get all mad genius posting rogue calculations and then cut off your own hand.

Further, your conclusion is based on a seven second snap shot of a possibly ideal rogue rotation, but pvp doesn't happen in seven second snap shots, even if some rogues might like it to. I would be more interested in seeing two curves on a graph and the time stamp where mutilate starts outperforming combat.

So I don't mean to invalidate anything, In fact I appreciate all this information, especially the math that individuals are doing privately and sharing with the community. I just think that in a thread like this, where the op is a list of numerical values, both discussion and further research should be presented in an accurate way.
Click to expand...

alrighty now that exam fatigue has faded heres something more along the line of what you wanted.



first off. i would just like to say that at the time of 3pm ish i believe that post was made at i was in between 3 diff engineering finals and my brain was mush so pls don't be too mean . second turns out i forgot the 1.15 * multiplier in my caffein induced stupor for assas damage due to the spec passive anyways heres the new and improved spreadsheet.

TRZoEHJ.png


okay so lets take a nice look at this guy and have some fun discussion . green is combat red is assas . pls ignore all those other rows. they were just used for when i was finding out the stat weighting for combat dps.

these calcs were done in the 7 sec golden window of burst that u see in bgs from using a thistle tea and dumping everything. for combat the damage includes 1 ambush 1 revealing 2 ss's and a eviserate pluss poisons auto attacks and all that stuff. assassination includes 1 ambush 1 mute envenom 2 mutes with envenom up and another final envenom 3 sec of auto attack without envenom 4 sec with it up . for auto attacks and poisons . if we were to extend this to 8 or so seconds combat would pick up an extra sinister as it has 40 or so energy at the end of those 7 sec and assas has 5 energy .

so yeah over these 7 sec fc dropping periods they pan out just about equal with combat having a 500 damage ish lead if you extend it to 8 sec or 60 ish damage if u leave it at 7 seconds.

another situation i would like to point out is the 2 second burst phase of just " ambush evis" that is sometimes key to bursting somebody asap for combat you have 1820 damage on average from one ambush plus eviserate or assassination has ambush mute on an envenomed target for 1160 .

im kindah itching to play some arenas now though so ill leave the dataz here for the night . ill probably do more over break but we will see. sorry for any wrong ideas conveyed while i was mentally foggy from exams
 
How did you find that 1 agil = 3.7 crti = 6 haste?

so this means that belt of the monkey > belt of the bandit?

But how is wsg dagger better than heartseeker

1agil vs 4 crit + 2 haste
you said 1 agil = 3.7 crit. so you get 0.3 crit + 2 haste extra with heart seeker
 
elffies said:
How did you find that 1 agil = 3.7 crti = 6 haste?

so this means that belt of the monkey > belt of the bandit?

But how is wsg dagger better than heartseeker

1agil vs 4 crit + 2 haste
you said 1 agil = 3.7 crit. so you get 0.3 crit + 2 haste extra with heart seeker
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Alright for finding those numbers for combat (which are accurate as of now) I started off with bis gear then I added 1 agi to that set . I then added crit to that set until I got the same numbers in total damage column. Same with haste and multi. That means to get the same increase in damage as 1 agi u would need x crit or y haste.

Also you are correct on heartseaker being bis offhand for combat . As I had a mistake in my sheaf the first time I ran the numbers. Most recent posted one is correct though.
 
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