Crystalpall
the F2P PvEr
It looks like getting the old talon of vultros is not possible for F2Ps then :<
Math Breakdown: Rogue Weapons
- Thread starter Hashbrowns
- Start date
Snowjobs
Fluffy
sigh guess you missed my previous post. u can use engineering or blacksmithing to open the chests. silver keys from blacksmithing is easiest imo , so yeah its totally possible. ( and much swag from it too)
also
its not bis for the offhand as a combat rogue . so its only viability would be in a sub, or mute spec.
LennywBT
SpeeDIO
You can still get it... eniopaladin.. back in mop , tried it , with pickpockrting boxes , he opened like 300+ of em... but the chance should be increased with the coming of wod.
OP
OP
Hashbrowns
Legend
Thanks, I'll fix this soon.
WSG dagger is going to look BiS, it has higher agility and the same weapon range as the BoA. Is 1 agility worth more then the crit/haste on Heartskeer?... That would require some different testing. But it's a very strong OH choice.
Bop
Remember the Treeline
Do it.
Also, do you know if we can use both of the Talons of Vultros if we get the new Vultros drop as well as the lockbox?
Zehj
Legend
Domunique
Legend
Twin ToV, nice.
How long did it take to loot the ToV out of the junkboxes?
I got the other ToV on my FIRST kill off of Vultros, I hope I have the same luck with the other one.
Also as a Rogue I find this to be an Interesting thread, I have all these weapons so whatever comes out the best for ambush I''l be sure to set a macro for.
Although when I look at my Ambush Icon, its usually whatever gives more Agility = whatever is going to do more damage.
My Shadowfang - Item - World of Warcraft seems to be claiming to do the most damage when I read my ambush icon, so whatever has more agility gives more damage to abilities, although my Venerable Dal'Rend's Sacred Charge - Item - World of Warcraft has better white damage and could end up doing more damage in the long run.
As far as ambush goes, Shadowfang - Item - World of Warcraft seems BiS to me, when it comes to one-handers that DO NOT go through the 40% buff scaling that daggers receive.
The only thing I need to know now is that if there are any daggers in the main-hand (utilizing the 40% damage scaling) that would out-do the Shadowfang.
ToV looks promising, even though its 1 less agility it is a slow dagger with good damage that could just get over with the 40% extra damage, or not, who knows.
I wish I could do this all myself but I'm too busy IRL, and any free time I have I'm spending farming my Gloomshroud Armor.
How long did it take to loot the ToV out of the junkboxes?
I got the other ToV on my FIRST kill off of Vultros, I hope I have the same luck with the other one.
Also as a Rogue I find this to be an Interesting thread, I have all these weapons so whatever comes out the best for ambush I''l be sure to set a macro for.
Although when I look at my Ambush Icon, its usually whatever gives more Agility = whatever is going to do more damage.
My Shadowfang - Item - World of Warcraft seems to be claiming to do the most damage when I read my ambush icon, so whatever has more agility gives more damage to abilities, although my Venerable Dal'Rend's Sacred Charge - Item - World of Warcraft has better white damage and could end up doing more damage in the long run.
As far as ambush goes, Shadowfang - Item - World of Warcraft seems BiS to me, when it comes to one-handers that DO NOT go through the 40% buff scaling that daggers receive.
The only thing I need to know now is that if there are any daggers in the main-hand (utilizing the 40% damage scaling) that would out-do the Shadowfang.
ToV looks promising, even though its 1 less agility it is a slow dagger with good damage that could just get over with the 40% extra damage, or not, who knows.
I wish I could do this all myself but I'm too busy IRL, and any free time I have I'm spending farming my Gloomshroud Armor.
Snowjobs
Fluffy
alrighty guys so i found one lil bug in my spreadsheet for rogue numbers that made secondary stats not factor into auto attack damage right but its all fixed and nice and dandy now.
as far as gear goes this is the following stat weighting for a opening sequence involving 6 sec of tot with an ambush , revealing, and 2 sinister strikes, followed by a 5 cp execute (yeah u goat use thistle to pull it off but thats max burst brah .
1 Agi = 1.78 Multistrike = 6.32 haste w/o slice and dice up or 4.96 with slice up = 3.77 crit
some notes . multi strike is really strong because of the rating to percent conversion being quite high. haste sucks because it only really effects the auto attack portion of ur opener. for it to really effect anything more you need a span of over 20 sec tot in order get enough energy regen for an extra revealing or something.
you can now use this info to look at Hashbrowns gear scaling index and find the bis pieces of gear.
for weapons . Shadowfang Mh Heartseaker Oh is the bis combo . (the 1.7 speed is what pulls it ahead of TOV if your going to ask that ) (yeah vulturos will give u a harder hitting smeld ambush evis combo but if your going for that logic a double sf combo would be bis.
Anyways SF heartseaker is bis weapon combo i have found so far. if you have any other ideas of combos to try i would gladly throw those in ( loom weapons suck don't bother with them). use that stat weighting to find ur bis offensive gear . Gl and Hf
as far as gear goes this is the following stat weighting for a opening sequence involving 6 sec of tot with an ambush , revealing, and 2 sinister strikes, followed by a 5 cp execute (yeah u goat use thistle to pull it off but thats max burst brah .
1 Agi = 1.78 Multistrike = 6.32 haste w/o slice and dice up or 4.96 with slice up = 3.77 crit
some notes . multi strike is really strong because of the rating to percent conversion being quite high. haste sucks because it only really effects the auto attack portion of ur opener. for it to really effect anything more you need a span of over 20 sec tot in order get enough energy regen for an extra revealing or something.
you can now use this info to look at Hashbrowns gear scaling index and find the bis pieces of gear.
for weapons . Shadowfang Mh Heartseaker Oh is the bis combo . (the 1.7 speed is what pulls it ahead of TOV if your going to ask that ) (yeah vulturos will give u a harder hitting smeld ambush evis combo but if your going for that logic a double sf combo would be bis.
Anyways SF heartseaker is bis weapon combo i have found so far. if you have any other ideas of combos to try i would gladly throw those in ( loom weapons suck don't bother with them). use that stat weighting to find ur bis offensive gear . Gl and Hf
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Bop
Remember the Treeline
You said "5 CP Revealing Strike". I demand that be fixed immediately.
Also, what about for Assassination?
WSG/ToV?
ToV/ToV?
Snowjobs
Fluffy
For assassination the benefit of secondary stats will be greater (1 agi = 3.6 crit instead of 3.77 ) thats a complete guess though and is wrong but you get the idea. this is because the combat passive increased ap by 20% and assass increases the over all damage by 15% . also the poison damage is increased . which happens to be effected by haste which the other components of you damage are not so as that damage is increased the benefit of haste goes up even more.
I'll do the assass calculations tonight for real though. the rotation ill use for calcs will probably be
ambush, mute, envenom, thistle, mute, mute, envenome with slice n dice up and 7 sec of tot
Domunique
Legend
Another thing we should take to account is specs.
Do ambush, not just with different weapons, but also with different specs.
I am sure that certain specs have a stronger ambush then others.
I am also sure that some weapons ambush well on certain specs and don't on others.
As a rogue right now I seem to enjoy maximizing my burst damage (ambush), here is what I do:
- x 2 Shadowfangs
- Max agility stacking gear
- Subtlety spec (for that extra % Agility boost, and 10% damage buff)
- Nightstalker talent (50% extra burst)
^ That is a BiS Ambush in my humble opinion.
Do ambush, not just with different weapons, but also with different specs.
I am sure that certain specs have a stronger ambush then others.
I am also sure that some weapons ambush well on certain specs and don't on others.
As a rogue right now I seem to enjoy maximizing my burst damage (ambush), here is what I do:
- x 2 Shadowfangs
- Max agility stacking gear
- Subtlety spec (for that extra % Agility boost, and 10% damage buff)
- Nightstalker talent (50% extra burst)
^ That is a BiS Ambush in my humble opinion.
Bop
Remember the Treeline
Right, you're correct in that regard.
Snowjobs (or as I know him, Bendandcough) isn't calculating which spec has the highest damage Ambush, but rather what the max damage for X seconds after the opener.
Rogue falls off pretty hard in relation to Feral after the initial opener on the target. There isn't a single class in this game that can match the ToT of a Feral Druid (for non-acronymologically aware people like myself, ToT isn't a reference to the "Top of Tunnel" here, but to "Time on Target").
So assumed here is that the rogue will be Combat, because Combat seems to bring the most bang-for-your-buck with a 5 CP Revealed Eviscerate. Combat's damage comes in about 15 second cycles, and is very powerful and has a lot of potential for kills when lined up correctly with Kick.
Assassination has the best ToT of any of the Rogue specs over an extended amount of time (even when compared to Combat's Eviscerate), which makes a lot of the more experienced Rogue players like it the most.
Subtlety (with the 30% hemorrhage buff) may have the best ToT within 6 seconds after the Ambush (with Master of Stealth / Weakened Armor). That's kind of hard to say. I'm not convinced that the extra opener buffs from Subtlety outmatch the initial build-up to the Eviscerate for Combat.
Another thing to consider is that Subtlety may have the BiS Ambush, but it almost certainly does not have the BiS Stealth Opener. That almost assuredly belongs to Combat with a 5 CP Revealed Eviscerate with Nightstalker.
Crystalpall
the F2P PvEr
To BiS ambush you also need buffs
sharpen your blades, get rallying cry, sayge fortune of damage, agi elixir etc etc
Snowjobs
Fluffy
Heres the deal in that 6 sec window of the increased 10% damage from sub would probably have the highest damage. 1.2 multiplier vs 1.15*1.1 =1.265 roughly as well as the armor reduction how here's the thing . In arenas your bis rotation will probably be ambush revealing (target gets off you somehow , charge guise or what ever) u smeld restealth resap ambush evis the damaged person using ur agm to keep stealth from breaking . Or as sub u would do the same thing but with a hemo instead . So for sub you would have a higher base ambush x2 and higher base evis but the revealing debuff from combat makes that stronger .
What at it comes down to is an ambush and evis with half the physical mitigation better than a sinister and a revealing strike evis .
I'll figure it out later
What at it comes down to is an ambush and evis with half the physical mitigation better than a sinister and a revealing strike evis .
I'll figure it out later
Domunique
Legend
The thing I like about rogues right now is that there is no BiS spec or talent, just all different play styles.
Same as the gear too, its viable to stack agility, or crit, or haste, or have a balance.
You can be a burst type of rogue, a sustain damage rogue, or a diverse kit rogue.
Right now I'm enjoying my max ambush build (just need gloomshroud armor to max it out), but I have enjoyed every single spec and talent since WoD hit and I cannot say one is weaker than the other.
You know whats funny is I never even thought of a 5 point eviscerate done on a combat rogue with revealing strike buff/night stalker buff on, seeing as combo points are saved now thats so do-able, I guess I find it more smarter to use those 5 combo points on slice and dice and open with an ambush but meh, also a good hard hitting attack to burst de-buffed flag carriers in WSG with, would be very interesting to try.
I guess its just something that's odd and a rare occurrence though, since when is a rogue going to have 5 combo points and be in stealth, and then you have to eviscerate a target that you previously used revealing strike on? maybe if your winning by a landslide this is possible.
Seeing as I'm a night elf rogue though its more then possible for me to re-stealth mid fight and give my finishing blow eviscerate a little 50% buff with nightstalker (with revealing strike added too of course), just makes the combat rogues out there even more diverse. I usually save my shadowmeld for escapes but still sounds good, I'll be sure to go combat/nightstalker on my rogue soon.
Oh yeh and as far as my experiences with sub/nightstalker rogue goes, as long as you agility stack, its fine to me, take advantage of that % agility buff by stacking as much agility as you can, which translates to all round flat damage, on auto attacks and abilities (ambush etc).
I'm doing 1100-1400 ambushes in normal flat damage, no beserker buff, no crits.
And If I really want, I shadowmeld to re-stealth, so my second ambush goes through their armor 100%, this debuff lasts 10 seconds and gives me plenty of time.
Also my auto attacks are good, because my agility is much higher it makes my dodge and auto attacks noticeably better.
And also even though hemorrhage is weaker then mutilate or sinister strike, it only costs 30 energy, and as a sub rogue your getting 8 energy every couple of seconds so your just button spamming more often, but its still holding up. The bleed helps too, for de-cloaking just incase your poisons didn't proc correctly on your stealthed target that's trying to escape.
The eviscerate is fine but its nothing like a combat rogue, but as sub, slice and dice is better, only eviscerate if you know its going to kill them, slice and dice is also surprisingly well on a sub rogue.
Sub is a good class for Arenas too.
I honestly think this spec keeps its head above water if you stack max agility, go for the kill, and re-stealth.
And when I mean re-stealth, I mean put the stealth icon in your actual action bar so you can spam it to re-stealth once a target is killed.
See when you kill a target it gives you around 1 second opportunity to re-stealth, but in a huge group fight/bg it might only give you 0.5 or 0.2 seconds as it re-associates you being in combat, so after every killing blow you just have to spam that stealth button, easier done if you put it on the action bar.
Same as the gear too, its viable to stack agility, or crit, or haste, or have a balance.
You can be a burst type of rogue, a sustain damage rogue, or a diverse kit rogue.
Right now I'm enjoying my max ambush build (just need gloomshroud armor to max it out), but I have enjoyed every single spec and talent since WoD hit and I cannot say one is weaker than the other.
You know whats funny is I never even thought of a 5 point eviscerate done on a combat rogue with revealing strike buff/night stalker buff on, seeing as combo points are saved now thats so do-able, I guess I find it more smarter to use those 5 combo points on slice and dice and open with an ambush but meh, also a good hard hitting attack to burst de-buffed flag carriers in WSG with, would be very interesting to try.
I guess its just something that's odd and a rare occurrence though, since when is a rogue going to have 5 combo points and be in stealth, and then you have to eviscerate a target that you previously used revealing strike on? maybe if your winning by a landslide this is possible.
Seeing as I'm a night elf rogue though its more then possible for me to re-stealth mid fight and give my finishing blow eviscerate a little 50% buff with nightstalker (with revealing strike added too of course), just makes the combat rogues out there even more diverse. I usually save my shadowmeld for escapes but still sounds good, I'll be sure to go combat/nightstalker on my rogue soon.
Oh yeh and as far as my experiences with sub/nightstalker rogue goes, as long as you agility stack, its fine to me, take advantage of that % agility buff by stacking as much agility as you can, which translates to all round flat damage, on auto attacks and abilities (ambush etc).
I'm doing 1100-1400 ambushes in normal flat damage, no beserker buff, no crits.
And If I really want, I shadowmeld to re-stealth, so my second ambush goes through their armor 100%, this debuff lasts 10 seconds and gives me plenty of time.
Also my auto attacks are good, because my agility is much higher it makes my dodge and auto attacks noticeably better.
And also even though hemorrhage is weaker then mutilate or sinister strike, it only costs 30 energy, and as a sub rogue your getting 8 energy every couple of seconds so your just button spamming more often, but its still holding up. The bleed helps too, for de-cloaking just incase your poisons didn't proc correctly on your stealthed target that's trying to escape.
The eviscerate is fine but its nothing like a combat rogue, but as sub, slice and dice is better, only eviscerate if you know its going to kill them, slice and dice is also surprisingly well on a sub rogue.
Sub is a good class for Arenas too.
I honestly think this spec keeps its head above water if you stack max agility, go for the kill, and re-stealth.
And when I mean re-stealth, I mean put the stealth icon in your actual action bar so you can spam it to re-stealth once a target is killed.
See when you kill a target it gives you around 1 second opportunity to re-stealth, but in a huge group fight/bg it might only give you 0.5 or 0.2 seconds as it re-associates you being in combat, so after every killing blow you just have to spam that stealth button, easier done if you put it on the action bar.
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Domunique
Legend
I appreciate you doing all the numbers sir, I'm not a smart guy so this helps.
I see alot of it as chalking up to preference, circumstances and cooldowns.
Rogues that play alot of Arenas will have different builds as to ones that want to play Battlegrounds.
The most consistent and all-round diversified kit for a rogue (if you cbb rechanging your specs/talents all the time) is .............*drum roll*..............
Race - Night elf (racist I know), Undead (for horde)
Spec - Combat
Talent - Nightstalker
My opinions of course <3
I see alot of it as chalking up to preference, circumstances and cooldowns.
Rogues that play alot of Arenas will have different builds as to ones that want to play Battlegrounds.
The most consistent and all-round diversified kit for a rogue (if you cbb rechanging your specs/talents all the time) is .............*drum roll*..............
Race - Night elf (racist I know), Undead (for horde)
Spec - Combat
Talent - Nightstalker
My opinions of course <3
Snowjobs
Fluffy
If you really wanted to be a nifty rogue you would macro all of your abilities to have /stealth before them that way u automatically stealth as soon as somebody dies .
/cast stealth
/cast derp strike
Circomstantialy
I would say combat and assas are better in bgs than sub but sub may shine in arena just because in bgs u should dump a load of damage with a thistle incorporated for max damage and sub gains nothing from it compared to the specs with high damage high energy moves but in arenas the utility of the bleed along with possibly higher sustained dps and max burst could win out. Yet again more calcs after my finals
/cast stealth
/cast derp strike
Circomstantialy
I would say combat and assas are better in bgs than sub but sub may shine in arena just because in bgs u should dump a load of damage with a thistle incorporated for max damage and sub gains nothing from it compared to the specs with high damage high energy moves but in arenas the utility of the bleed along with possibly higher sustained dps and max burst could win out. Yet again more calcs after my finals