Snack
Salty
I couldn't agree less
How is it an offensive proc? Compared to the direct offensive stat an agility ring would provide
Mage @ 29
- Thread starter Clutch
- Start date
Dramatized
Legend
freezing ec to the ground is at least quasi offensive?
Donteventrii
OG
How does efc get frozen if they are running away?
Dramatized
Legend
never heard of bms spamming barrels? or a druid moonfiring to keep you out of stealth?
Donteventrii
OG
Tigers lust, Druid shift
Allybeboba
Legend
Since when do Mages have stealth, Tigers lust, Druid shift, spamming barrels or moonfire @ 29?
/cheers
Sweetsidney
/cheers
Sweetsidney
danny glover
Officially Retired
i think frost mage could be really good, just haven't seen anyone using it to it's full potential yet.
Donteventrii
OG
Why do your trolls make zero sense?
Sicknature
Grandfathered
With plenty of haste you should be able to atleast slow a druid efc down by spamming frostbolts and using your freezes to keep him pinned down for atleast a second
(if its one of those nitro druids you can also freeze the healers around it so it outruns its support) and you can use blazing speed and blink to keep up a little or a swiftness potion would make things alot easier ^^
Donteventrii
OG
I thought we were talking about Rogues. Ofc I use it on my Mage. Flashbombs and speed pots, and sometimes rocket boots are the preferred method of animal control.
Atherburst
Grandfathered
Your straw man isn't going to work. I'll even do the math for you to prove it.
Charged Gear of Agility scales to 10 Agility in BGs.
Ambush does 315% of you average damage range.
Let's assume the FC has 5 stacks.
Let's assume a 2.8 weapon.
That 10 AP is giving you 10 Top and Bottom end damage (10 Average damage)
10 * 3.15 * 1.5 = 47.5 damage
Adding in Crit Chance (Let's assume 25% to make it easy)
47.5*(1-Crit Chance) + 47.5*1.5*(Crit Chance)
=53.43 extra damage in your ambush from a single ring.
This assumes you don't have any other damage multipliers like Beserker. 53 extra damage in just the opener looks pretty damn good to me, especially because the second you open that druids just Displacing out of your range and you're never catching up.
I won't even bring up the DR argument since there aren't enough classes with CC for this to matter. What I will say is even if your freeze does proc before the druid displaces away from you, shapeshift will just break him out of it anyway. You have one chance to land a kill as a rogue on the FC then they're gone. Your mobility just isn't good enough.
Agility > DMH
Snack
Salty
I don't think Barrels proc anything at all. Not Frost Armor on mages, EF or Colossus or anything, so don't think it will proc DMH. And in those 1 or 2 times the druid will MF you to keep you outta stealth, the chance of DMH proccing is so miniscule
this^
Donteventrii
OG
Mage was resolved
Snack
Salty
Rogue > mage anyway :3
willix
Legend
First, the amount of agility you find on a ring @ 29 is a miniscule amount of agility compared to the rest of the agility you would find on your character sheet from the rest of your gear and enchants. That one ring is basically fuck-all and you could have an empty ring slot without noticing much difference offensively.
Second, there is no substitute for DMH proc. You don't get that anywhere else on your character sheet. The offensive/defensive value of a 3 second random freeze far and away out shines the offense value of ~9 agi on a ring.
Dramatized said:
Freezing a player to the ground opens up opportunity for offensive play. IE, casting a spell, using an item, attacking a different target for longer, ect.
Donteventrii said:
Tanks don't ever fight back? Wouldn't fighting back generate freeze procs, even on players who are running away? I don't think it's a stretch to conceive of this outcome, except on the most jaja-iest of the jajas who would probably run away without fighting back.
Donteventrii said:
You're right, 2/10 classes can somewhat effectively counter DMH procs. Must be completely useless.
Atherburst said:
I'm almost positive you don't know what a strawman is, and you're just picking words you think might make your argument more credible.
Atherburst said:
So you're a rogue, opening on an FC. You get maybe two Ambushes in the opener if you talented Subterfuge, That's a whopping what, +100 damage on a character who might have upwards of 8000 health? Even if DMH is absolute garbage, your math only shows how insignificant the agility from a single item really is in the grand scheme of things.
Beyond that, you're failing to realize that Ambush isn't even close to being a major source of your damage as a rogue (auto attacks, poisons, and whatever CP builder you're spamming are), and you're making a huge assumption that your damage is even consequential in a fight. You're wrong and here's why:
1. If your +53 damage is consequential in a fight on an FC, he's shit geared and was going to die anyway to a random dot or auto attack.
2. If the FC in question is rolling with any sort of backup (especially a healer) your damage is going to be shit anyway and you need utility to pull off a kill. Utility that you can't get a as a rogue without items like DMH. A freeze effect hinders people from peeling you, assisting their FC, and/or being useful as a teammate.
3. In essence, DMH randomly controls the positioning of any player on the other team who happens to have attacked you at some point (it triggers off dots, pet attacks, CC, just about anything). + 9 agi just gives you a few more DPS (realize I'm talking about damage per second and not damage on a single attack, since you obviously missed that before) which is easily negated by a semi competent healer.
4. Since its addition to the game, DMH has been the one item that every decent 29 aware of its existence, has gone out of their way to get, even going so far as to commit hundreds (or thousands) of runs to obtain it. It's the one item that is useful to every spec of every class in the game, the one item that you wouldn't be trying to argue against had you ever had the opportunity to play with it.
5. At this point, it seems like the basis of your argument centers around not having the experience to formulate an informed opinion about DMH. You just keep saying 'agi > dmh.' That's not compelling, as I've said before.
Atherburst
Grandfathered
You're falsely representing my argument. A "2 DPS increase" is distinctly different than the instantaneous damage output I'm putting value on.
I'm going to lay my argument out completely so it makes sense:
1) Druids are the only viable FC in the current meta because of their mobility kit and high HP
2) Rogues are the best flag returners because of stealth and the best on-command burst in the 29 bracket. (Not counting Ferocious Bite since that takes time to build the combo points)
3) Rogues are even more suited for FC return since they have generally weak defenses making them less useful for team fights.
4) Therefore, the rogue needs to optimize for the FC return interaction against a druid.
Now let's break down that interaction.
1) Rogue opens on druid with DMH
*If Druid displaces/runs, rogue tries to get a restealth and try again.
*If DMH procs, druid displaces/runs, rogue tries to get a restealth.
*If the druid fights, you do your best to kill him or retreat and wait for teammates.
*If the druid fights and DMH procs, he shifts it anyway and you stay to kill him or retreat and wait for team mates.
>Therefore DMH ads NO incremental value to the encounter that matters most for the rogue.
Conversely, in the same scenario as above but with the +10 agility from a BIS ring, the rogue will be doing an additional 100-150 damage at MINIMUM to the druid. Sure that's not absolutely game breaking, but at least its something, where as DMH provides nothing.
You even made this argument against yourself in this same post:
Guess what? You're primary interaction as a rogue is against 1 of those 2 classes.
Again, 100-150 bonus damage > a freeze proc that the druid can easily remove himself. I've outlined the interactions above in detail.
Again, you seem to think DPS matters in a PVP environment. We care about INSTANTANEOUS DAMAGE since the druids going to gtfo almost immediately after being opened on.
99 times out of 100 that bonus damage won't matter, but sometimes it will.
100 times out of 100, DMH won't help you secure a kill on a druid that knows how to change out of bear form for half a second.
And by this logic, why wouldn't rogues just stack stamina exclusively? If agility/AP is such an incremental stat, why don't they just go for all stam/haste/crit?
The druid can peel for himself. If he displaces, you're not catching up. If you want utility against FC protectors, bring a mage.
"Randomly": That's another issue with DMH. If it doesn't proc when you need it to it's a wasted item slot.
Also stop talking about DPS; it's a completely irrelevant metric to returning flags and PVP in general.
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not a valid argument. (Even though I agree DMH is BIS for 9/10 classes)
ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not a valid argument.
Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not a valid argument. Also intellectually disingenuous.
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Allybeboba
Legend
I wonder who will capitulate first and let the other have the last word on this discussion about Mages and their rings. What do you guys think?
Lol
/cheers
Lol
/cheers