Mage @ 29

[Snack]

I wonder who will capitulate first and let the other have the last word on this discussion about Mages and their rings. What do you guys think?
Lol

/cheers

omg you are so funny

 

[Atherburst]

omg you are so funny

/cheers
/cheers
/cheers
/cheers
/cheers
/cheers

 

[Allybeboba]

You forgot the best part.

/cheers
Sweetsidney...





Kek

 

[willix]

You're falsely representing my argument. A "2 DPS increase" is distinctly different than the instantaneous damage output I'm putting value on.

I'm not misrepresenting anything. You've intentionally fixated on Ambush as the main damage source that makes agi so valuable. Which means you ignore the other 90% of the stuff rogues do (including the majority of their damage). Are you really trying to say that once you ambush on an FC, you just give up and let the guy run away? Isn't that completely counter intuitive to what a rogue does as the stickiest class in the game?

1) Druids are the only viable FC in the current meta because of their mobility kit and high HP
2) Rogues are the best flag returners because of stealth and the best on-command burst in the 29 bracket. (Not counting Ferocious Bite since that takes time to build the combo points)
3) Rogues are even more suited for FC return since they have generally weak defenses making them less useful for team fights.
4) Therefore, the rogue needs to optimize for the FC return interaction against a druid.

This is a matter of opinion. Nothing more.

1) Rogue opens on druid with DMH
*If Druid displaces/runs, rogue tries to get a restealth and try again.
*If DMH procs, druid displaces/runs, rogue tries to get a restealth.
*If the druid fights, you do your best to kill him or retreat and wait for teammates.
*If the druid fights and DMH procs, he shifts it anyway and you stay to kill him or retreat and wait for team mates.

>Therefore DMH ads NO incremental value to the encounter that matters most for the rogue.

Conversely, in the same scenario as above but with the +10 agility from a BIS ring, the rogue will be doing an additional 100-150 damage at MINIMUM to the druid. Sure that's not absolutely game breaking, but at least its something, where as DMH provides nothing.

I think I've found the problem: you believe that rogues are supposed to 1v1 FCs and run if they can't. World of Warcraft pvp is designed and balanced around team play. As such, an FC is supposed to have support while he's holding the flag, including when he's picking up flag and moving across field. Similarly, anyone engaging the FC is supposed to have support as well. The part you're failing to understand, is that DMH buys you opportunity. Instead of opening all by yourself on an FC, hoping your extra 50 damage on Ambush kills it, you open on the FC and laugh as your DMH procs screw over the people trying to peel you from the FC.

Because you have support when you open, you use your utility to stick to the FC (even druids), and you do significantly more damage over time (DPS) than if you were to just ambush and run off to get a re-stealth. If for some reason you don't have support, you use your CC (sap, gouge) to control the FC until you can get support.

You even made this argument against yourself in this same post:
You're right, 2/10 classes can somewhat effectively counter DMH procs.
Guess what? You're primary interaction as a rogue is against 1 of those 2 classes.

You missed the intentional sarcasm of my point. Regardless of what classes you encounter more often in pvp, the fact of the matter is that there are 10 different classes and only two of them have tools that outright counter DMH (and only 1 of those classes can do it at will).

Again, 100-150 bonus damage > a freeze proc that the druid can easily remove himself. I've outlined the interactions above in detail.

No, it isn't. A freeze proc can buy you opportunity to get an extra attack or two in. Even if a druid uses Displacer Beast to get away from you after DMH proc, you just forced a CD from a player off a random proc. How does that not count as offensive use? Not to mention all the times a player might use Dispel, trinket, or another CD to remove the root. You're completely ignoring the things that make DMH so damn good.

Again, you seem to think DPS matters in a PVP environment. We care about INSTANTANEOUS DAMAGE since the druids going to gtfo almost immediately after being opened on.

I'm sorry, this isn't Cataclysm or MoP. Players don't fall over dead from one attack. Players have a shit ton of health (if they gear properly) and pvp is a game about attrition. Burst is part of DPS and DPS is what kills players. The entire point of playing a DPS class is to damage someone repeatedly until they are dead. Not to open on them, do 10-20% of their HP worth of damage, and then run off like some window-licking keyboard turner.

99 times out of 100 that bonus damage won't matter, but sometimes it will.
100 times out of 100, DMH won't help you secure a kill on a druid that knows how to change out of bear form for half a second.

And by this logic, why wouldn't rogues just stack stamina exclusively? If agility/AP is such an incremental stat, why don't they just go for all stam/haste/crit?

That bonus damage will never matter in the way that you think it does. Doing more damage is only relevant if you land a kill. If you open and your target just gets away, having that extra agility was pointless. The point is that ~9 agi is a drop in the bucket to any level 29 agility class. It's not consequential in the way that you believe it is. It does not provide the utility and offensive opportunity that DMH does, which is the entire focus of this discussion. It's about one offensive stat on one item vs the freeze proc on another item (a utility effect that is not available from anywhere else).

"Randomly": That's another issue with DMH. If it doesn't proc when you need it to it's a wasted item slot.
Also stop talking about DPS; it's a completely irrelevant metric to returning flags and PVP in general.

1. Randomness is not an issue.
2. How do you possibly kill anything if you don't DPS? I don't think DPS is what you think it is.

Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not a valid argument. (Even though I agree DMH is BIS for 9/10 classes)

Read my post again. I'm not using the beliefs of these players as an argument in favor of DMH. Instead, I'm using the behavior of many people as evidence to support the fact of DMH being BiS for any class. Whether or not anyone believes DMH is good is irrelevant. The merit of using DMH is demonstrable independent of individual or group belief.

ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not a valid argument.

Parsing the basis of your argument is not a personal attack. Pointing out ones lack of experience as the basis of a particular stance is not a personal attack. If you've never personally used DMH, that's a pretty important factor if we're having a discussion about the merits of using it in battle.

Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not a valid argument. Also intellectually disingenuous.

Quoting something you've clearly said at least once, citing the fact that you've said it, is not a strawman. A strawman would be me arguing against an argument you're not making. All I did was point out how what you're saying isn't a compelling argument.

This is probably my last response to you in this thread. No point in going back and forth if you're going to accuse me of things I'm not actually doing.

 

[Atherburst]

I'm not misrepresenting anything. You've intentionally fixated on Ambush as the main damage source that makes agi so valuable. Which means you ignore the other 90% of the stuff rogues do (including the majority of their damage). Are you really trying to say that once you ambush on an FC, you just give up and let the guy run away? Isn't that completely counter intuitive to what a rogue does as the stickiest class in the game?

No I'm saying once you ambush the druid is going to bail. Why the hell would they sit there and face tank your 1337 damage?

I think I've found the problem: you believe that rogues are supposed to 1v1 FCs and run if they can't. World of Warcraft pvp is designed and balanced around team play. As such, an FC is supposed to have support while he's holding the flag, including when he's picking up flag and moving across field. Similarly, anyone engaging the FC is supposed to have support as well. The part you're failing to understand, is that DMH buys you opportunity. Instead of opening all by yourself on an FC, hoping your extra 50 damage on Ambush kills it, you open on the FC and laugh as your DMH procs screw over the people trying to peel you from the FC.

Because you have support when you open, you use your utility to stick to the FC (even druids), and you do significantly more damage over time (DPS) than if you were to just ambush and run off to get a re-stealth. If for some reason you don't have support, you use your CC (sap, gouge) to control the FC until you can get support.

The scenario was intentionally simplified. Again, Druids peel for themselves so its irrelevant if DMH procs on his supporters. And if his supports trinket a three second root, I'm pretty sure you're winning the game regardless of what ring you use.

You missed the intentional sarcasm of my point. Regardless of what classes you encounter more often in pvp, the fact of the matter is that there are 10 different classes and only two of them have tools that outright counter DMH (and only 1 of those classes can do it at will).

I didn't miss the sarcasm. If the majority of your interactions are against a class that can easily nullify the effects of DMH, using DMH is bad.

No, it isn't. A freeze proc can buy you opportunity to get an extra attack or two in. Even if a druid uses Displacer Beast to get away from you after DMH proc, you just forced a CD from a player off a random proc. How does that not count as offensive use? Not to mention all the times a player might use Dispel, trinket, or another CD to remove the root. You're completely ignoring the things that make DMH so damn good.

A druid wouldn't displace out of the snare they'd just shift it. You're not forcing a major CD with a 3 second root unless you're playing against bads.

I'm sorry, this isn't Cataclysm or MoP. Players don't fall over dead from one attack. Players have a shit ton of health (if they gear properly) and pvp is a game about attrition. Burst is part of DPS and DPS is what kills players. The entire point of playing a DPS class is to damage someone repeatedly until they are dead. Not to open on them, do 10-20% of their HP worth of damage, and then run off like some window-licking keyboard turner.

29 is stupidly bursty. DPS matters in team fights, but burst and instantaneous DPS wins games, especially when trying to return a flag.

That bonus damage will never matter in the way that you think it does. Doing more damage is only relevant if you land a kill. If you open and your target just gets away, having that extra agility was pointless. The point is that ~9 agi is a drop in the bucket to any level 29 agility class. It's not consequential in the way that you believe it is. It does not provide the utility and offensive opportunity that DMH does, which is the entire focus of this discussion. It's about one offensive stat on one item vs the freeze proc on another item (a utility effect that is not available from anywhere else).

Just because an effect is not available elsewhere doesn't make it inherently good. I've already shown the numerical value of the extra 10 agility from a Gear. That damage isn't huge, but its better than nothing.

1. Randomness is not an issue.

Said no serious PVPer ever.

2. How do you possibly kill anything if you don't DPS? I don't think DPS is what you think it is.

DPS means damage per second. I honestly don't give a fuck how much damage per second you do, I care if you kill something. That's why balance druids/Spreists that spam aids in BGs and top damage meters aren't impressive. Sure their DPS is huge, but their pressure sucks. As a rogue, you wont get to sit on Druid target for more than a few seconds at a time which means DPS is irrelevant.

Read my post again. I'm not using the beliefs of these players as an argument in favor of DMH. Instead, I'm using the behavior of many people as evidence to support the fact of DMH being BiS for any class. Whether or not anyone believes DMH is good is irrelevant. The merit of using DMH is demonstrable independent of individual or group belief.

Behaviors are a direct result of beliefs. The fact that a lot of people do or believe something is not a good argument.

A lot of Christians go to church on Sunday and pray. Does that must mean praying works?

Parsing the basis of your argument is not a personal attack. Pointing out ones lack of experience as the basis of a particular stance is not a personal attack. If you've never personally used DMH, that's a pretty important factor if we're having a discussion about the merits of using it in battle.

I've used it and had it used against me. Even still, this is not a valid argument. You don't need direct experience with a 5% 3 second snare to understand the mechanics and form an argument.

Quoting something you've clearly said at least once, citing the fact that you've said it, is not a strawman. A strawman would be me arguing against an argument you're not making. All I did was point out how what you're saying isn't a compelling argument.

Your previous reply took the summation of my argument as the entirety of my argument and dismissed it as not being compelling. This is the definition of a straw man.

This is probably my last response to you in this thread. No point in going back and forth if you're going to accuse me of things I'm not actually doing.

I accused you of nothing, just arguing the facts.

 

[Allybeboba]

Every once in a while someone talks some sense around here. Willi-ten's post "
#64 was one of those posts.
He should leave it that because the immature folks have just GOT to get the last word in on any debate here on TI. Whether they are right or wrong. Last word on always wins.
And unless they have anything significant to add they will always, always resort to personal attacks. Just wait and see...


/cheers

 

[Atherburst]

Every once in a while someone talks some sense around here. Willi-ten's post "
#64 was one of those posts.
He should leave it that because the immature folks have just GOT to get the last word in on any debate. Whether they or right or wrong. Later word on always wins. Lol...
/cheers

* I like Willix
* I didn't actually read his or his opponents argument
* Because I like Wilix, anyone who disagrees with him must be immature.
* lol /cheers
* I contributed to this thread
* I think running 2 miles is a good indicator of fitness

Just wanted to summarize your post for the members' benefits. No no, thank me later.

 

[Snack]

Every once in a while someone talks some sense around here. Willi-ten's post "
#64 was one of those posts.
He should leave it that because the immature folks have just GOT to get the last word in on any debate here on TI. Whether they are right or wrong. Last word on always wins.
And unless they have anything significant to add they will always, always resort to personal attacks. Just wait and see...


/cheers

But wait... Didn't you just resort to a personal attack by calling the people debating with Willix in this thread immature? So by that logic you are immature yourself? And no I have nothing significant to say OT, because I really cba to read those novels people are writing over a fucking GF'd ring.

 

[Donteventrii]

Ignore the troll please.