[Level 20][Opinion] All Specs Mastery Rundown

[JadeFire]

Lemme get these Solo Shuffle videos edited and I will. Kaxle and DJ play UH against some STELLAR healers and just fucking body people on the regular. Its disgusting. DK legit ended up being the sleeper class of this xpac and once people figured it out, it started dominating.

Still about mastery so its kind of relevant:

Can you just clarify for the future what you mean by "body", just for the record. I assume you don't mean global. The other guys statement was very clear about what he could do, we'll just keep that one on the record as well.

 

[Goesid]

Still about mastery so its kind of relevant:

Can you just clarify for the future what you mean by "body", just for the record. I assume you don't mean global. The other guys statement was very clear about what he could do, we'll just keep that one on the record as well.

 

[JadeFire]

I think that is what most of the people in here are being led to believe. That is part of the problem with the forums.

 

[Kracks]

You claimed that you are relegated towards leveler / f2p cleanup, I claim and stand by the fact that any proper unholy dk (not "me" you donkey) who knows when to press what buttons can indeed down any properly geared healer. Cba the spec nor the race of the healer.
Seems as my point has been proven when reading the messages above.
I will not waste anymore time on a clown like you, I'll be downing healers while you are spamming FF on an FDK to top charts
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Oh yeah for sure! I have it on my ally dk I just don't like the knockback on myself so I keep from using it hehe.

I don't like to spawn that much zombies on a single target since it soaks alot of runes and a proper player will simply outrun / kill them. I much rather spawn a zombie and then grip someone los into the stun into apoc!
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Honestly bro, savant isn't worth going for. I love playing on 50% haste but it's more a meme than an actual build
[doublepost=1651955968][/doublepost]
I notice your DK is running with Sul'Thraze, mind telling me if the proc scales with Mastery? I tried back in prepatch or around SL launch can't remember correctly and it did not then. Haven't bothered getting and testing it now

Sulthraze doesn’t scale with mastery it scales with vers. Runeblade is bis imo for the speed

 

[icehawk]

I think I need some lessons in UH gameplay.
I do get that they have some initial burst, but after that, I feel like I’m standing around like a stale bottle of pi$$.
Also feels quite squishy, especially for a Plate wearer.
Anyone got any vids of UH play I could check out?

 

[Chops]

I think that is what most of the people in here are being led to believe. That is part of the problem with the forums.

who’s leading them to believe that?

your insistence that “can global or bad” is just wild. DK is brutally capable, but sure… it’s not globaling anyone

Guess its worthless.

 

[JadeFire]

who’s leading them to believe that?

your insistence that “can global or bad” is just wild. DK is brutally capable, but sure… it’s not globaling anyone

Guess its worthless.

You said "body" not me. I asked you what you meant by "body" - usually when somebody says that they mean "annihilated". Maybe you saw somebody get lucky with 6 wounds, an Apocalypse and 4 SS crits... I don't know. I just wanted clarification. You have also fabricated this reoccurring dream where I ever said "if it can't global it's bad"... maybe you are reading too many of Krack's moronic posts.

***

Again, tho this brings us back to the overlaying question to the entire thread which is are we talking about (1) Arena (2) Limited Arena like Solo Shuffle (3) wargames (4) open battle grounds or (5) d-d-d-duels. You can't just say Mastery is the best for each one, and as usual a lot of people are all bringing up different scenarios in which it might be and some where it certainly is not. Whether some people think "that there anit no real pvp!"... I'm sure others think differently.

 

[toskosa]

DK is brutally capable

It really is, I am glad I gave UH a second look because its very strong. I am not even very well geared so I am looking forward to finishing my dk and seeing just what kind of damage it can really put out.

 

[lyeah]

The hpally mastery https://www.wowhead.com/spell=183997/mastery-lightbringer - I would value it as 1/5 for our bracket. Since most of us plays randombg, there are limited places on maps to be close to your heal target and also be safe at the same time. Unlike in arenas, you can LOS with pillars and take advantage of indirect healing your target with https://www.wowhead.com/spell=177174/beacon-of-light. At higher character levels (like most mastery benefits) the payoff is better with improvements that generate additional sources to create holy power. i.e https://www.wowhead.com/spell=231667/crusader-strike and
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=231642/beacon-of-light.

For our bracket it's best to be away from the front line as much as possible, beacon of light your melee before they overextend and out of range; spam heal on another target and hopefully they can live with the 50% side benefit. IMO your main stat priority should be int>haste>verse; you can be greedy and get ~40% haste, which will bring your cooldowns of holyshock to 5s, crusder strike to 5s. This helps collect holy power much faster, in order to push out instant heal https://www.wowhead.com/spell=85673/word-of-glory

 

[tence]

The hpally mastery https://www.wowhead.com/spell=183997/mastery-lightbringer - I would value it as 1/5 for our bracket. Since most of us plays randombg, there are limited places on maps to be close to your heal target and also be safe at the same time. Unlike in arenas, you can LOS with pillars and take advantage of indirect healing your target with https://www.wowhead.com/spell=177174/beacon-of-light. At higher character levels (like most mastery benefits) the payoff is better with improvements that generate additional sources to create holy power. i.e https://www.wowhead.com/spell=231667/crusader-strike and
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=231642/beacon-of-light.

For our bracket it's best to be away from the front line as much as possible, beacon of light your melee before they overextend and out of range; spam heal on another target and hopefully they can live with the 50% side benefit. IMO your main stat priority should be int>haste>verse; you can be greedy and get ~40% haste, which will bring your cooldowns of holyshock to 5s, crusder strike to 5s. This helps collect holy power much faster, in order to push out instant heal https://www.wowhead.com/spell=85673/word-of-glory

I see you have read a certain guide

 

[Sarmlery]

I think I need some lessons in UH gameplay.
I do get that they have some initial burst, but after that, I feel like I’m standing around like a stale bottle of pi$$.
Also feels quite squishy, especially for a Plate wearer.
Anyone got any vids of UH play I could check out?

A good tip to remember is that while bursting, and rotating runes to keep an eye on your runic power. Make sure never to be full, wasting potential damage. Also always try and keep Virulent Plague on a target (unless of course you need them cc'd)

 

[The Abomb]

Man I just don't know what to say anymore... I couldn't care less what they build but when a new player joins and sees that SP stat priority is crit = haste or that mage stacks mastery above all else it's not gonna be fun for him when he realizes that this isn't the right way.

As mentioned you are wrong in assuming your way is the correct way or only way that works. I felt like Chops comment was spot on but still since you are referring directly to my post which are backed up with my large amount of game experience. I figure I'd chime in now.

Anytime someone new joins this forums it is up to them to read over the information and figure out what works for them. What stat priority will be fun for their specific build in the type of content they do. I believe myself and everyone else here has provided options for them. Which is what new players deserve.

I listed reasons for stacking Crit and there is a reason why Spriest stacked Crit when I was competing at 2600 MMR in RBGs. We had a Crit Spriest and so did other top teams in the world. If another team had one, you had to keep them in the GY otherwise your team was in for a bad time due to the Facemelting pressure they provided. This is NO different at level 20 as the stat and mechanics function the same. If you make a Crit build you aren't doing it wrong, you are playing a very effective different way that works extremely well in a BG setting.

I personally go Haste/Crit as mentioned as they synergize extremely well and explained why they offer more damage and mitigation. So people can explore this option for themselves and perhaps try out the build to see if it is something they enjoy more.

But ok, if you insist on spreading misinformation

Just because you don't like information doesn't make is misinformation. Something that people get wrong in today's time.

 

[lyeah]

I personally go Haste/Crit as mentioned as they synergize extremely well and explained why they offer more damage and mitigation.

The joy of twinking is to be ability to push stats to the extremes and then figuring out if the tradeoff is worth it or not. I'm not a SP main, but I imagine when stacking haste/crit, each of your different dots ticks faster and each of these instances rolls the higher %critical. Somewhere in all those numbers, there must be a breakeven for that payoff to be worth it... . Maybe some affliction locks can chime in? I can't imagine any non dot classes from a fireflash set.

Do 20s ferals get multiple bleeds?

 

[Kaxle]

Do 20s ferals get multiple bleeds?

 

[The Abomb]

The joy of twinking is to be ability to push stats to the extremes and then figuring out if the tradeoff is worth it or not.

Agree

I'm not a SP main, but I imagine when stacking haste/crit, each of your different dots ticks faster and each of these instances rolls the higher %critical. Somewhere in all those numbers, there must be a breakeven for that payoff to be worth it

For Haste once you get down around 1 sec GCD and 1.1 sec cast time there isn't much reason to go further. If you get this much Haste you can only get maybe 25% Crit. So it becomes do you want more Crit and less Haste or other stats. I have about 14% Versa outside of a BG. So it's not in the gutter as it does help the build and zero Mastery. Hence why I chimed in on the Mastery thread.

Just Crit also is great for defensive as Bubbles Crit and with shorter CD on them from Haste. I just can't fathom playing a Dps that is intended to do massive spread damage without Crit personally. Not to mention when your Vampiric Crits that is higher Healing dots rolling in on you which allows you to keep damage up and survive till you can either rebubble or heal. So you want to get Vamp out fast on multiple targets and for them to Crit. Then of course your single target burst is reliable and juicy.

Not saying this is for everyone however it is more a high end way to play that opens up PvP talent options.

I'm basically about done with my Spriest, just short on sockets on my jewelry but everything else is good to go. With full consumes ready in 6 days when my Sub runs back out.
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/bleeding-hollow/abombstwinkp

 

[Bop]

Agree



For Haste once you get down around 1 sec GCD and 1.1 sec cast time there isn't much reason to go further. If you get this much Haste you can only get maybe 25% Crit. So it becomes do you want more Crit and less Haste or other stats. I have about 14% Versa outside of a BG. So it's not in the gutter as it does help the build and zero Mastery. Hence why I chimed in on the Mastery thread.

Just Crit also is great for defensive as Bubbles Crit and with shorter CD on them from Haste. I just can't fathom playing a Dps that is intended to do massive spread damage without Crit personally. Not to mention when your Vampiric Crits that is higher Healing dots rolling in on you which allows you to keep damage up and survive till you can either rebubble or heal. So you want to get Vamp out fast on multiple targets and for them to Crit. Then of course your single target burst is reliable and juicy.

Not saying this is for everyone however it is more a high end way to play that opens up PvP talent options.

I'm basically about done with my Spriest, just short on sockets on my jewelry but everything else is good to go. With full consumes ready in 6 days when my Sub runs back out.
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/bleeding-hollow/abombstwinkp

You should play arenas with us. We organize skirms and wargames several times a week.

https://discord.gg/SdQPBVSQ

 

[JadeFire]

Been trying to put in the work on Enhance with a goofy 100% mastery build (172 I think it is) trying to capitalize on Forceful Winds instead of Lashing Flames. Just general info, it's not terrible, but its not quite up to par. To get there you have to make too many sacrifices like only having 10% Crit, 15% Haste 0% Verse and lower agility for giving up BC gear. Sometimes you do just get all the stacks and go ham, but not enough going on to make it really click. Even with 100% you get a 4% increase WF chance .

And 100% on elemental damage also seems like a lot, but its 100% of your completely diminished stats (primary and secondary), etc. that you gave up to get to 100% mastery... so again, not that great.

***

And also on the DK nonsense issue as far as Mastery goes
With comparable sets on:
Spaceblade has 176 str (crow wing) / 8 crit / 31 haste / 68 mastery
Naxx has 169 str (lasher) / 5 crit / 26 haste / 19 mastery / 33 verse (Naxx is missing 3 sockets neck/rings which would only make the below numbers better)

Howling Blast - Naxx(564) Space(614)
Frost Strike - Naxx(168) Space(183)
Obliterate - Naxx(249) Space(192)
Death Strike - Naxx(171) Space(132)
Remorless Winter - Naxx(178) Space(194)
Inexorable Assault - Naxx(73) Space(79)

Festering Strike - Naxx(312) Space(240)
Clawing Shadows - Naxx(144) Space (153)
Festering Wound - Naxx (72) Space (73)
Death Coil - Naxx(157) Space (167)
Death Strike - Naxx(124) Space (96)
Outbreak - Naxx (374 - 75 erupt) Space (374 - 79 erupt)

As you can see the numbers are pretty close and verse also makes your Obliterate/Death Strike/Scourge Strike just that much better. And you get to keep 33% Verse. Just too much misinformation stating that Mastery is SO MUCH BETTER... it is not. The forums just suffer from Echo chamber... one guy copies a guy, copies a guy, copies a guy, then without any other testing that becomes the best build.

And as I stated before, Naxx is missing 3 slots, plus Lasher also scales with verse. I could give Spaceblade the Runeblade, but that is basically just a little less damage for comparison sake... and if they both had the Runeblade for comparison, Naxx would just get more damage in the comparison. Also, when you scale mastery down in BG, its even worse for Spaceblade.

Do your own research please.

 

[Bop]

Been trying to put in the work on Enhance with a goofy 100% mastery build (172 I think it is) trying to capitalize on Forceful Winds instead of Lashing Flames. Just general info, it's not terrible, but its not quite up to par. To get there you have to make too many sacrifices like only having 10% Crit, 15% Haste 0% Verse and lower agility for giving up BC gear. Sometimes you do just get all the stacks and go ham, but not enough going on to make it really click. Even with 100% you get a 4% increase WF chance .

And 100% on elemental damage also seems like a lot, but its 100% of your completely diminished stats (primary and secondary), etc. that you gave up to get to 100% mastery... so again, not that great.

***

And also on the DK nonsense issue as far as Mastery goes
With comparable sets on:
Spaceblade has 176 str (crow wing) / 8 crit / 31 haste / 68 mastery
Naxx has 169 str (lasher) / 5 crit / 26 haste / 19 mastery / 33 verse (Naxx is missing 3 sockets neck/rings which would only make the below numbers better)

Howling Blast - Naxx(564) Space(614)
Frost Strike - Naxx(168) Space(183)
Obliterate - Naxx(249) Space(192)
Death Strike - Naxx(171) Space(132)
Remorless Winter - Naxx(178) Space(194)
Inexorable Assault - Naxx(73) Space(79)

Festering Strike - Naxx(312) Space(240)
Clawing Shadows - Naxx(144) Space (153)
Festering Wound - Naxx (72) Space (73)
Death Coil - Naxx(157) Space (167)
Death Strike - Naxx(124) Space (96)
Outbreak - Naxx (374 - 75 erupt) Space (374 - 79 erupt)

As you can see the numbers are pretty close and verse also makes your Obliterate/Death Strike/Scourge Strike just that much better. And you get to keep 33% Verse. Just too much misinformation stating that Mastery is SO MUCH BETTER... it is not. The forums just suffer from Echo chamber... one guy copies a guy, copies a guy, copies a guy, then without any other testing that becomes the best build.

And as I stated before, Naxx is missing 3 slots, plus Lasher also scales with verse. I could give Spaceblade the Runeblade, but that is basically just a little less damage for comparison sake... and if they both had the Runeblade for comparison, Naxx would just get more damage in the comparison. Also, when you scale mastery down in BG, its even worse for Spaceblade.

Do your own research please.

Have you run a simulation only using 2x Festering into Apocalypse, stopping when your ghouls time out?

I ran dozens towards the beginning of SL - I forget the exact data, but it was a gigantic difference.

Comparing the base damage numbers of 2 different DK sets doesn't give you the full picture. The base damage of Unholy's abilities is not the selling point. You aren't an Arms/Fury Warrior, or a Windwalker Monk, or a Ret Pally, or any other melee that specializes in grinding an enemy down in melee with more efficient damage done than damage taken. No matter how you build a death knight, you will never be better than other classes at doing that. It's just not how the class operates at 20.

If you only play Battlegrounds and only have the perspective of trying to make the class fit into a max damage role despite its inherent shortcomings, then yes - going for a build that doesn't revolve around a 90 second cooldown will definitely perform more overall damage in that battleground (For Unholy, at least - for Frost based on your own numbers, it still looks like Mastery is the way to go...).

But that's not what Unholy does better than any other melee, so I'm not sure why we're using a standarized melee dps metric of base ability damage as a comparison between two builds.

Unholy has Apocalypse. It's a very powerful ability at level 20. Geared correctly and with the right setup, Unholy can solo a healer in arena if the healer isn't given heavy peels. There aren't many DPS that can claim that. Unholy can take a lot of losing 1v1 matchups and turn them into wins with Apoc. It's a long cooldown, mastery has marginal benefit outside of Apoc, but it's the best aspect of the spec.

There's different forms of pvp for different folks, I suppose. But I don't feel comfortable giving the best stat at improving the one shining advantage Unholy has over other specs less than a 4/5. It would communicate that Unholy should build to maximize its Festering/Death Strike damage (and healing) - but it would fail to give the more important message: focus on what your class does well, not making up for what it lacks.

 

[JadeFire]

Have you run a simulation only using 2x Festering into Apocalypse, stopping when your ghouls time out?

I ran dozens towards the beginning of SL - I forget the exact data, but it was a gigantic difference.

Comparing the base damage numbers of 2 different DK sets doesn't give you the full picture. The base damage of Unholy's abilities is not the selling point. You aren't an Arms/Fury Warrior, or a Windwalker Monk, or a Ret Pally, or any other melee that specializes in grinding an enemy down in melee with more efficient damage done than damage taken. No matter how you build a death knight, you will never be better than other classes at doing that. It's just not how the class operates at 20.

If you only play Battlegrounds and only have the perspective of trying to make the class fit into a max damage role despite its inherent shortcomings, then yes - going for a build that doesn't revolve around a 90 second cooldown will definitely perform more overall damage in that battleground (For Unholy, at least - for Frost based on your own numbers, it still looks like Mastery is the way to go...).

But that's not what Unholy does better than any other melee, so I'm not sure why we're using a standarized melee dps metric of base ability damage as a comparison between two builds.

Unholy has Apocalypse. It's a very powerful ability at level 20. Geared correctly and with the right setup, Unholy can solo a healer in arena if the healer isn't given heavy peels. There aren't many DPS that can claim that. Unholy can take a lot of losing 1v1 matchups and turn them into wins with Apoc. It's a long cooldown, mastery has marginal benefit outside of Apoc, but it's the best aspect of the spec.

There's different forms of pvp for different folks, I suppose. But I don't feel comfortable giving the best stat at improving the one shining advantage Unholy has over other specs less than a 4/5. It would communicate that Unholy should build to maximize its Festering/Death Strike damage (and healing) - but it would fail to give the more important message: focus on what your class does well, not making up for what it lacks.

Again you are telling me things already known. Haste is not the factor I'm talking about... that is constant in my comparison... so with that being constant... its just about damage. Basically just a straight up comparison of Aurora to Feverflare.

I don't claim to play Unholy well at all, but I can see the numbers (and when all the other factors are the same, sometimes it just does come down to damage). Naxx's Apocolypse is better than Spaceblade's... again... Naxx's Festering strike hits much harder and his ghouls hit for an average of 39... Spaceblade's Festring strike hits for less and the ghouls hit for 33 each... again, if haste is removed from the equation because they both have the same... I'm still not seeing why Mastery is worth taking. Maybe I'm overlooking something. I don't care about what unholy can CC or do... I'm just comparing Mastery to Versatility on either Unholy and Frost (which again neither of those abilities effect anything other than damage)... and I'm not seeing how Mastery makes sense just looking at the damage numbers and keeping haste relatively the same.

If I'm XYandZ let me know... but, I mean I built the both to take a look.

 

[Bop]

Again you are telling me things already known. Haste is not the factor I'm talking about... that is constant in my comparison... so with that being constant... its just about damage. Basically just a straight up comparison of Aurora to Feverflare.

I don't claim to play Unholy well at all, but I can see the numbers (and when all the other factors are the same, sometimes it just does come down to damage). Naxx's Apocolypse is better than Spaceblade's... again... Naxx's Festering strike hits much harder and his ghouls hit for an average of 39... Spaceblade's Festring strike hits for less and the ghouls hit for 33 each... again, if haste is removed from the equation because they both have the same... I'm still not seeing why Mastery is worth taking. Maybe I'm overlooking something. I don't care about what unholy can CC or do... I'm just comparing Mastery to Versatility on either Unholy and Frost (which again neither of those abilities effect anything other than damage)... and I'm not seeing how Mastery makes sense just looking at the damage numbers and keeping haste relatively the same..

Details! result without using Elekk Tusk.

https://imgur.com/a/XK7kcQi

With Elekk Tusk.

https://imgur.com/a/2Vt6F7T

So 81 mastery during the duration of AotD translates to about 300 more damage just from ghoul melees.

Does Vers have a better ratio than that?