[Level 20][Opinion] All Specs Mastery Rundown

[JadeFire]

Details! result without using Elekk Tusk.

https://imgur.com/a/XK7kcQi

With Elekk Tusk.

https://imgur.com/a/2Vt6F7T

So 81 mastery during the duration of AotD translates to about 300 more damage just from ghoul melees.

Does Vers have a better ratio than that?

Ok, but I could just use Elkk on Naxx and Spaceblade and get the comparison would be net zero... they both would get the same bonus.... so again, Naxx's numbers are still better as I posted up above... and versatility gives damage reduction... mastery does not... what else am I missing?

 

[Bop]

Ok, but I could just use Elkk on Naxx and Spaceblade and get the comparison would be net zero... they both would get the same bonus.... so again, Naxx's numbers are still better as I posted up above... and versatility gives damage reduction... mastery does not... what else am I missing?

What?

I'm not arguing for the efficacy of Elekk Tusk.

I'm arguing that the value of mastery for UH's main purpose outweighs Vers.

 

[JadeFire]

What?

I'm not arguing for the efficacy of Elekk Tusk.

I'm arguing that the value of mastery for UH's main purpose outweighs Vers.

You are not understaing what I'm telling you.

The numbers I posted compare Aurora to Feverflare... Aurora looks better as I showed... I get that the Tusk adds Mastery... but again, they can both use it (that results in net 0 gain in comparison for both regardless of how it would increase numbers).... I did not say Mastery does not add damage... Jesus christ... so just use Aurora and use the Tusk... and it comes out ahead over Feverflare and use the Tusk... again.

 

[Bop]

You are not understaing what I'm telling you.

The numbers I posted compare Aurora to Feverflare... Aurora looks better as I showed... I get that the Tusk adds Mastery... but again, they can both use it (that results in net 0 gain in comparison for both regardless of how it would increase numbers).... I did not say Mastery does not add damage... Jesus christ... so just use Aurora and use the Tusk... and it comes out ahead over Feverflare and use the Tusk... again.

The point of the images is to show the effect that +81 mastery has on Apocalypse. The fact that I am getting the mastery from elekk tusk is irrelevant. You could get a similar mastery difference from ilvl 28s.

The point I am making is that mastery has roughly a ratio of 3.7 damage per rating (300/81) on only ghoul auto attacks. The logic extends past on-use effects and into gearing decisions. I am holding that ratio out as a comparison to whatever Versatility can do for your Apoc.

So what do Versatility numbers look like?

 

[JadeFire]

The point of the images is to show the effect that +81 mastery has on Apocalypse. The fact that I am getting the mastery from elekk tusk is irrelevant. You could get a similar mastery difference from ilvl 28s.

The point I am making is that mastery has roughly a ratio of 3.7 damage per rating (300/81) on only ghoul auto attacks. The logic extends past on-use effects and into gearing decisions. I am holding that ratio out as a comparison to whatever Versatility can do for your Apoc.

So what do Versatility numbers look like?

I just posted the numbers (maybe you did not read)... I did not run a sim, but but I can see the ghoul damage... Naxx's do more... so apocalypses runs for the same duration on both... so...

I think you are imagining that with no mastery the ghouls hit for like 10 or something... they hit harder with verse... and again, Naxx is missing some gem slots to make the comparison even more favorable in verse favor.

Using elks is not irrelevant in the comparison... you can still use that on a verse build if you want its just extra damage.. its just a bonus... that is what I mean... if they both turn it on... they get the same bonus... I believe Naxx would even get more of a benefit from the Tusk because the way Mastery % tappers off.

 

[Chops]

Jade is always going to look at total damage done in a BG and tell you that a spec performs poorly or well based on how that numbers compares to other specs he sees in BGs. Trying to convince him to "play what the spec is built to do and stop trying to make it be something its not" is a battle not really worth fighting. Big number go up? Spec/gear good. Big number go down? Spec/gear bad.

 

[Bop]

I just posted the numbers (maybe you did not read)... I did not run a sim, but but I can see the ghoul damage... Naxx's do more... so apocalypses runs for the same duration on both... so.

I think you are imagining that with no mastery the ghouls hit for like 10 or something... they hit harder with verse.

Using elks is not irrelevant in the comparison... you can still use that on a verse build if you want its just extra damage.. its just a bonus.

Can you just post an image of your details result as well as your character page for the gear set you used for the apoc?

I read your basic ability assessment above, which noted an increase in damage only for festering and death strike. I'd be curious to see your damage tests on a pvp dummy using an addon.

After all, if Vers is more damage for apocalypse, then we should be able to find a ratio of 1 vers rating = X damage. I find it very hard to believe that the ratio would be better than 3.7 per point.

It's also worth noting that the number of critical ghoul attacks in my test was weighted in favor of the non-elekk tusk test.

 

[JadeFire]

Jade is always going to look at total damage done in a BG and tell you that a spec performs poorly or well based on how that numbers compares to other specs he sees in BGs. Trying to convince him to "play what the spec is built to do and stop trying to make it be something its not" is a battle not really worth fighting. Big number go up? Spec/gear good. Big number go down? Spec/gear bad.

Man you make me sick sometimes... I just posted 4 times about how that is not what I was saying and posted numbers and you say something that stupid.

They have the same haste... so anybody can play them the same/same cooldowns... just comparing verse to mastery... please go moderate somewhere else.

 

[Bop]

Man you make me sick sometimes... I just posted 4 times about how that is not what I was saying and posted numbers and you say something that stupid.

To be fair, you did seem to think that using elekk tusk on your vers build negated my entire point about mastery = damage up.

So there's a bit of talking past others / misunderstandings to go around.

 

[JadeFire]

To be fair, you did seem to think that using elekk tusk on your vers build negated my entire point about mastery = damage up.

So there's a bit of talking past others / misunderstandings to go around.

I don't have an addon to take a look, but might be worth it. I just looked at the numbers as they came off the training dummy.

 

[Bop]

I don't have an addon to take a look, but might be worth it. I just looked at the numbers as they came off the training dummy.

I'm ignorant of a lot of on-use trinkets to go hunt down - I know there are a few for Vers. I could go grab one right now if someone could point me in the direction of one.

It's not really worth comparing two different characters' results, anyways. I have a feeling that your DKs are both vastly better geared than mine in the ilvl 28 department.

 

[Goesid]

I'm ignorant of a lot of on-use trinkets to go hunt down - I know there are a few for Vers. I could go grab one right now if someone could point me in the direction of one.

It's not really worth comparing two different characters' results, anyways. I have a feeling that your DKs are both vastly better geared than mine in the ilvl 28 department.

Grenade something, drop from Iron Docks, tanks only

 

[Chops]

I just posted 4 times about how that is not what I was saying and posted numbers and you say something that stupid.

I don't care about what unholy can CC or do...

My apologies if I took you saying that you didnt care about what UH is built to do and were only looking at raw dmg output to mean that you didnt care about what it was built to do and were only looking at raw damage output.

 

[Bambucea]

And also on the DK nonsense issue as far as Mastery goes
With comparable sets on:
Spaceblade has 176 str (crow wing) / 8 crit / 31 haste / 68 mastery
Naxx has 169 str (lasher) / 5 crit / 26 haste / 19 mastery / 33 verse (Naxx is missing 3 sockets neck/rings which would only make the below numbers better)

Howling Blast - Naxx(564) Space(614)
Frost Strike - Naxx(168) Space(183)
Obliterate - Naxx(249) Space(192)
Death Strike - Naxx(171) Space(132)
Remorless Winter - Naxx(178) Space(194)
Inexorable Assault - Naxx(73) Space(79)

Festering Strike - Naxx(312) Space(240)
Clawing Shadows - Naxx(144) Space (153)
Festering Wound - Naxx (72) Space (73)
Death Coil - Naxx(157) Space (167)
Death Strike - Naxx(124) Space (96)
Outbreak - Naxx (374 - 75 erupt) Space (374 - 79 erupt)

As you can see the numbers are pretty close and verse also makes your Obliterate/Death Strike/Scourge Strike just that much better. And you get to keep 33% Verse. Just too much misinformation stating that Mastery is SO MUCH BETTER... it is not. The forums just suffer from Echo chamber... one guy copies a guy, copies a guy, copies a guy, then without any other testing that becomes the best build.

Do your own research please.

I might be wrong here but, you are comparing a build that has full Mastery and 0 Vers to a build that has SOME Mastery and almost full Vers (again, not taking haste into account).

The numbers are close but it does not prove anything towards the Mastery vs Vers on dk debate.

While the difference in dmg is close for the two builds, the one that has SOME Mastery gets its damage buffed alot by the little mastery it (frost gets the frost skills buffed and Unh shadow and minion dmg). If Naxx did not have any Mastery and dumped the points into Vers (I believe those are “%” and so 19 Mastery would be faar less Vers), the difference between frost’s frost damage abilities would be greater (in Space’s advantage) and the same would apply for unholy.

Someone coreect me if i’m wrong.

 

[JadeFire]

My apologies if I took you saying that you didnt care about what UH is built to do and were only looking at raw dmg output to mean that you didnt care about what it was built to do and were only looking at raw damage output.

@Chops
Sorry, it just got heated.

@Bop
I'm not saying that the tusk is not worth using on either... I'm just saying that a base Aurora set and a base Feverflare set to me look EXTEMELY close in damage (physical or shadow)... and since things like your Festering Strike and Death strike benefits so highly from verse... I'm just not seeing the Mastery aspect (from the stand point of it being one of the main secondary's).

You can use the Grenade, but I mean as a damage booster the Tusk is still better.

If I get super bored I might download an addon.

@Bambucea
You get 16% mastery by default * I think that is the number*

 

[Bop]

You get 8 mastery points for free, which is 8x your spec's mastery ratio.

Every 4 (3.92, technically) mastery rating gives you 1 mastery point.

I list each spec's ratio on the first post yay!

 

[Bambucea]

@Bambucea
You get 16% mastery by default * I think that is the number*

Got it, thanks. Then the way i see it is: Mastery has higher weight since even in a full vers vs full mastery build, the little base mastery the full vers build has brings the numbers so close, BUT a full Vers build would be .... I don't want to say better, since I agree with what the guys above said about what makes the spec (Unholy) shine, but it delivers comparable, equal ... good results. I can't speak for frost, since I haven't played it that much yet.

 

[Bop]

Got it, thanks. Then the way i see it is: Mastery has higher weight since even in a full vers vs full mastery build, the little base mastery the full vers build has brings the numbers so close, BUT a full Vers build would be .... I don't want to say better, since I agree with what the guys above said about what makes the spec (Unholy) shine, but it delivers comparable, equal ... good results. I can't speak for frost, since I haven't played it that much yet.

Versatility is always a consideration because if the damage is close enough to other options, then you should always pick it for the damage reduction. And then obviously it just shines on classes with healing.

I just want to know what something like +80 vers does for apoc, all other stats being the same.

And I know I'm ignoring potential multiplicative effects - like having 100 vers and 40 mastery vs 60 vers and 0 mastery. But that's where you start to want simulationcraft or something for 20s, which we sadly do not have. Either way, multiplicative effects shouldn't be *that* pronounced at level 20.

Edit Caveat --> Sometimes raw damage isn't the most important thing, which is the point I was making above. Sometimes you're a Tow Truck and not a Formula 1 racer. Your engine being more efficient or w/e is not really relevant. You tow things. Unholy apocs healers. I want my apoc to kill healers. I don't care about my rBG numbers, personally.

I sort of hate the concept that we have in twinking of "Well, it's just a playstyle question" - because all that does is shift the goalpost to: what's the best playstyle? But there is some merit in the idea of what the purpose of your toon is. If you only do skirmishes or wargame arenas, your character should be geared fairly differently (for most classes) than for random BGs. In random BGs, you probably should gear differently for premading with healers vs. solo-queuing.

Personally I ignore all of that and just treat my wargame gear as being good enough for battlegrounds. If the average skill level of battleground players at 20 was higher, then I would probably get dumpstered in every BG for not having engineering. But I find it works out...

 

[JadeFire]

Versatility is always a consideration because if the damage is close enough to other options, then you should always pick it for the damage reduction. And then obviously it just shines on classes with healing.

I just want to know what something like +80 vers does for apoc, all other stats being the same.

And I know I'm ignoring potential multiplicative effects - like having 100 vers and 40 mastery vs 60 vers and 0 mastery. But that's where you start to want simulationcraft or something for 20s, which we sadly do not have. Either way, multiplicative effects shouldn't be *that* pronounced at level 20.

Edit Caveat --> Sometimes raw damage isn't the most important thing, which is the point I was making above. Sometimes you're a Tow Truck and not a Formula 1 racer. Your engine being more efficient or w/e is not really relevant. You tow things. Unholy apocs healers. I want my apoc to kill healers. I don't care about my rBG numbers, personally.

I sort of hate the concept that we have in twinking of "Well, it's just a playstyle question" - because all that does is shift the goalpost to: what's the best playstyle? But there is some merit in the idea of what the purpose of your toon is. If you only do skirmishes or wargame arenas, your character should be geared fairly differently (for most classes) than for random BGs. In random BGs, you probably should gear differently for premading with healers vs. solo-queuing.

Personally I ignore all of that and just treat my wargame gear as being good enough for battlegrounds. If the average skill level of battleground players at 20 was higher, then I would probably get dumpstered in every BG for not having engineering. But I find it works out...

Same with enhance ... DK has the issue where some damage scales better with mastery and some scale with versatility.

 

[Kaxle]

Heres some numbers for you @Bop

All done without Crusader on PvP training dummy

FeverFlare

With Neither Trinket active

With Elekk Tusk (Gave me 81 mastery so brought me up to 78.87%)

With Stun Grenade (Gave me 61 vers so brought me up to 22.53%)

With Greka's proc

Harmo

With Neither Trinket active

With Elekk Tusk (Gave me 81 mastery so brought me up to 79.69%)

With Stun Grenade (Gave me 61 vers so brought me up to 33.52%)

Quickblade

With Neither Trinket active

With Elekk Tusk (Gave me 81 mastery so brought me up to 55.25%)

With Stun Grenade (Gave me 61 vers so brought me up to 36.93%)